Celtics' running contrary to the heliocentric offense.

[mmmmm]

Thinking Basketball put out a Youtube article talking about the trend towards 'heliocentric' offenses, where more and more teams are utilizing one feature 'star' who quarterbacks as much as 50% or more of the offensive load (through a combination of both scoring and playmaking).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0934lGZ4dw

The obvious exemplars for this are guys like veterans Harden & Lebron and you have relative new guys like Giannis and Doncic.   Kyrie, when healthy, plays at just barely under the 50% offensive load mark.   

The model represents a move away from having multiple play-making scorers and is a product first of the expansion that happened a while back and then the rising importance of the 3PT shot resulting in a more open floor and making it easier to keep initiating offense through the same perimeter player.

The Celtics obviously relied on this model as well in recent years, first with Isaiah and then with Kyrie.  And Kemba himself was clearly "that guy" while in Charlotte.

I find it interesting, though, that the Celtics have moved very deliberately away from that model, taking advantage of the return of Hayward and the emergence of The Two Jays' improved play-making skills to distribute play-making as well as scoring through multiple players on the floor.   And this isn't just with the starters, as Brad routinely initiates offense with Smart, Wanamaker and even the rookies.   He'll even let those bench guys initiate the offense while Kemba or the other starters are on the floor.

Kemba is still our highest usage guy and chief playmaker, but being under 29% USG and under 28% AST% he's a distinct step back from the load-hogs like Harden & Co.   And Kemba seems to slide smoothly and happily into secondary or even tertiary roles in the offense.  I.E., those raw numbers don't reflect how in one game, yes, he'll be The Guy, carrying 50%+ of the offensive load and then in the next one, he'll slide into the background, cheering on Jayson & Jaylen.

Jayson and Jaylen are both posting career highs in assists and it's no longer anomalous when one of them dishes out 4-5 dimes in a game. 

When Danny signed Gordon Hayward to come and join Isaiah and Al, I think that even back then they were trying to move to a roster that could support using multiple players carrying the offensive load.   Obviously, Isaiah's hip injury (and subsequent trade for Kyrie) and Gordon's foot injury completely disrupted that.   And Kyrie never seemed quite the good fit for that idea.

Even going back to when Brad first arrived, he tried to use guys like Jeff Green and Evan Turner as point-forwards to spread the way the offense was initiated, to varying degrees of success.

But now, I think Brad finally has the roster that he needs to make this work.

[Somebody]

TP for watching/reading Thinking Basketball's stuff! Not many posters here like it because it doesn't fit regular narratives in basketball, I'm pleasantly surprised that you have an open mind towards this stuff.

And as for us not following the heliocentric models in the NBA, I think it's because we don't have that elite on ball engine that can generate high quality looks consistently by himself instead of us actually opting to go with a more balanced approach - as good as IT and Kyrie were for us they couldn't quarterback our offences to elite enough levels to make us a serious title contender. After getting Kemba we made the right decision to shift towards Global Offence (a concept also discussed by Thinking Basketball), getting the centrepiece to shift away from an insanely heavy offensive load to unlock the offensive potential of his very good teammates (eg. Brown, Tatum, Smart, Hayward), which gave us more threats to score/pass/create in the offence and upped the amount of quality looks we get to score.

[RockinRyA]

TP for watching/reading Thinking Basketball's stuff! Not many posters here like it because it doesn't fit regular narratives in basketball, I'm pleasantly surprised that you have an open mind towards this stuff.

And as for us not following the heliocentric models in the NBA, I think it's because we don't have that elite on ball engine that can generate high quality looks consistently by himself instead of us actually opting to go with a more balanced approach - as good as IT and Kyrie were for us they couldn't quarterback our offences to elite enough levels to make us a serious title contender. After getting Kemba we made the right decision to shift towards Global Offence (a concept also discussed by Thinking Basketball), getting the centrepiece to shift away from an insanely heavy offensive load to unlock the offensive potential of his very good teammates (eg. Brown, Tatum, Smart, Hayward), which gave us more threats to score/pass/create in the offence and upped the amount of quality looks we get to score.

I disagree. Didn't mmmmm just point out that Kemba was playing this role in Charlotte? No, rather than playing this offense because we dont have a focal point for a heliocentric offense, I agree with 5m that the reason they never ran this before was because of the lack of personnel. Like he said, they clearly had this idea by getting Hayward.

[footey]

TP 5m. Love these viewpoints.

Two thoughts:

1. This explains why Kyrie was such a poor fit for our personnel.
2. This also helps explain why teams like the Celtics are just more enjoyable to watch.  I put the Raptors in that same category.  They have multiple guys who can create and score; it is far less predictable, the ball moves more, and just is more fun to watch this style of play.

[GetLucky]

Thanks for the great watch! Also wanted to throw this into the thread. It explains why the C's run the "double drag" (double ball screen at the top of the key) so often and how they use their bigs to create open lanes when they roll to the hoop or the ball is swung around the perimeter:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3INe9hPAEk

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

Thanks for the great watch! Also wanted to throw this into the thread. It explains why the C's run the "double drag" (double ball screen at the top of the key) so often and how they use their bigs to create open lanes when they roll to the hoop or the ball is swung around the perimeter:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3INe9hPAEk

TP for the video! Very instructive.

[hpantazo]

This is a very interesting discussion, TP to the OP.

I believe that s has been Ainge and Stevens goal all along, and it’s a big reason why Kylie didn’t fit here. I think they believed he would adapt and buy in, and Kylie had a different perspective.

I also think this offense is why we can win a title without a top 5 player. It will be interesting to see if that’s true. If so,  it would cause a large scale shift in strategy around the league

[mmmmm]

Thanks for the great watch! Also wanted to throw this into the thread. It explains why the C's run the "double drag" (double ball screen at the top of the key) so often and how they use their bigs to create open lanes when they roll to the hoop or the ball is swung around the perimeter:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3INe9hPAEk

Yeah, I love that offensive scheme.   Coach Dan's particular set of vignettes didn't show it, but it's really good for negating zones and attempts to pack the paint.  The secondary screener can either follow with a secondary roll or pop, depending on what you read.

EDIT:  Also wanted to add that a key thing that makes this work is the absolute un-flinching willingness to use our bigs to make shots and passes.   No one is confusing Theis, Kanter, Williamses et al, with primary scoring options, but in this offense they are expected to not hesitate to take their shots.

[Hoopvortex]

Thanks for the great watch! Also wanted to throw this into the thread. It explains why the C's run the "double drag" (double ball screen at the top of the key) so often and how they use their bigs to create open lanes when they roll to the hoop or the ball is swung around the perimeter:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3INe9hPAEk

Yeah, I love that offensive scheme.   Coach Dan's particular set of vignettes didn't show it, but it's really good for negating zones and attempts to pack the paint.  The secondary screener can either follow with a secondary roll or pop, depending on what you read.

EDIT:  Also wanted to add that a key thing that makes this work is the absolute un-flinching willingness to use our bigs to make shots and passes.   No one is confusing Theis, Kanter, Williamses et al, with primary scoring options, but in this offense they are expected to not hesitate to take their shots.

To recall a previous conversation with you, it’s striking how much more pick and roll there is this year, including with Tatum and Hayward as pnr ballhandlers.

Incidentally - or in fact to add to your main point - Tatum has a usage rate right behind Kemba.

Tatum is even regularly bringing the ball up, and setting up at the top of the circle to initiate the offense.

Great that you guys saw the double-drag screen sets. What a cool, simple idea with so many possible variations! Maybe you could call it ‘slip and roll’ instead of ‘pick and roll’, since the second screener slips the screen. The ballhandler already has a mismatch from the first screen.

[Hoopvortex]

This is a very interesting discussion, TP to the OP.

I believe that s has been Ainge and Stevens goal all along, and it’s a big reason why Kylie didn’t fit here. I think they believed he would adapt and buy in, and Kylie had a different perspective.

I also think this offense is why we can win a title without a top 5 player. It will be interesting to see if that’s true. If so,  it would cause a large scale shift in strategy around the league

Yes, a very interesting discussion, TP’s to everyone in the thread - all have added to it.

You might well have a point about Kyrie, who tends to get everything revolving around himself on the court (‘heliocentric’).

I agree that it’ll be interesting to see if Boston can pull off being a contender without a top-5 player. My ideal is a team that wins through teamwork over talent (greater than the sum of the parts). Having said that, by the RPM measure, Tatum is currently 6th in the league.

[Hoopvortex]

TP for watching/reading Thinking Basketball's stuff! Not many posters here like it because it doesn't fit regular narratives in basketball, I'm pleasantly surprised that you have an open mind towards this stuff.

FYI, he’s also got a podcast.

[vjcsmoke]

I was just watching this video and I came here to post it but you found that video as well.  TP for you! It clearly explains two concepts the Celtics are using now on offense that is helping them be much more efficient than last season.  Or maybe they just needed the right QB, ie Kemba instead of Kyrie to really make it hum.

Thanks for the great watch! Also wanted to throw this into the thread. It explains why the C's run the "double drag" (double ball screen at the top of the key) so often and how they use their bigs to create open lanes when they roll to the hoop or the ball is swung around the perimeter:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3INe9hPAEk

[RockinRyA]

Thanks for the great watch! Also wanted to throw this into the thread. It explains why the C's run the "double drag" (double ball screen at the top of the key) so often and how they use their bigs to create open lanes when they roll to the hoop or the ball is swung around the perimeter:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3INe9hPAEk

yes I love that video. I used that video to explain why Theis has been effective despite what his critics my think (there are some in the game threads who keep on dissing theis.)

[Somebody]

TP for watching/reading Thinking Basketball's stuff! Not many posters here like it because it doesn't fit regular narratives in basketball, I'm pleasantly surprised that you have an open mind towards this stuff.

And as for us not following the heliocentric models in the NBA, I think it's because we don't have that elite on ball engine that can generate high quality looks consistently by himself instead of us actually opting to go with a more balanced approach - as good as IT and Kyrie were for us they couldn't quarterback our offences to elite enough levels to make us a serious title contender. After getting Kemba we made the right decision to shift towards Global Offence (a concept also discussed by Thinking Basketball), getting the centrepiece to shift away from an insanely heavy offensive load to unlock the offensive potential of his very good teammates (eg. Brown, Tatum, Smart, Hayward), which gave us more threats to score/pass/create in the offence and upped the amount of quality looks we get to score.

I disagree. Didn't mmmmm just point out that Kemba was playing this role in Charlotte? No, rather than playing this offense because we dont have a focal point for a heliocentric offense, I agree with 5m that the reason they never ran this before was because of the lack of personnel. Like he said, they clearly had this idea by getting Hayward.

And what came out of running that sort of model with second rate offensive centrepieces (ntm that Kemba playing whetever role in Charlotte has no bearing on what role he'd play in Boston, emulating Charlotte's system would've been disastrous for both Kemba and us)? Pseudo-contenders that were fun to watch but were never really in that category of elite title contenders. We never had that elite centrepiece that we could run that system with and get a title winning offence.

I think the Celtics realised that getting a centrepiece who can quarterback an offence to elite enough levels that can contend for a title was insanely difficult after trading away Pierce and KG, so they laid the groundwork to assemble a squad with a more balanced offence by hiring a coach who likes to play multiple offensive threats on the floor, as well as maximising flexibility for years to get those B grade stars who can't carry an immensely heavy offensive load but can be part of an excellent offence alongside other similarly talented teammates.

[smokeablount]

TP for watching/reading Thinking Basketball's stuff! Not many posters here like it because it doesn't fit regular narratives in basketball, I'm pleasantly surprised that you have an open mind towards this stuff.

And as for us not following the heliocentric models in the NBA, I think it's because we don't have that elite on ball engine that can generate high quality looks consistently by himself instead of us actually opting to go with a more balanced approach - as good as IT and Kyrie were for us they couldn't quarterback our offences to elite enough levels to make us a serious title contender. After getting Kemba we made the right decision to shift towards Global Offence (a concept also discussed by Thinking Basketball), getting the centrepiece to shift away from an insanely heavy offensive load to unlock the offensive potential of his very good teammates (eg. Brown, Tatum, Smart, Hayward), which gave us more threats to score/pass/create in the offence and upped the amount of quality looks we get to score.

I disagree. Didn't mmmmm just point out that Kemba was playing this role in Charlotte? No, rather than playing this offense because we dont have a focal point for a heliocentric offense, I agree with 5m that the reason they never ran this before was because of the lack of personnel. Like he said, they clearly had this idea by getting Hayward.

And what came out of running that sort of model with second rate offensive centrepieces (ntm that Kemba playing whetever role in Charlotte has no bearing on what role he'd play in Boston, emulating Charlotte's system would've been disastrous for both Kemba and us)? Pseudo-contenders that were fun to watch but were never really in that category of elite title contenders. We never had that elite centrepiece that we could run that system with and get a title winning offence.

I think the Celtics realised that getting a centrepiece who can quarterback an offence to elite enough levels that can contend for a title was insanely difficult after trading away Pierce and KG, so they laid the groundwork to assemble a squad with a more balanced offence by hiring a coach who likes to play multiple offensive threats on the floor, as well as maximising flexibility for years to get those B grade stars who can't carry an immensely heavy offensive load but can be part of an excellent offence alongside other similarly talented teammates.

This was my thought as well. If don’t have a true MVP type to take on that usage and still be a true contender, a good team still has to find another way to be competitive and what the Celtics have done is a legit counter to the heliocentric offense.

I think the Q is, if we did have an MVP-type player, would we be more like the Bucks or Rockets, or maintain what we’re doing now?  Cuz I think we’re developing JT and hoping he peaks as one of those guys.