Trade for Myles Turner(merged threads)

[Who]

Myles Turner is still a young player with room for improvement. He can grow as a passer from a non-passer to an average one. His shot selection can improve. He can be taught to find a couple more easy rolls to the basket each game for easier finishes inside. He has a bit of a post game with a nice turnaround shot. That can be used better against switches when smaller players switch onto him.

Myles Turner is not a finished article. He is still young and has room for improvement with good coaching. He has already improved tremendously on the defensive end of the floor over the last couple of years.

I like what he can be for Boston. A long term fit at center. Someone who can help right away but still grow and improve while being young enough to be a fit here for the next 10 years. To get a young center with that profile & youth and with genuine versatility on both ends of the court is highly valuable.

[Who]

I'd happily deal Smart for Myles Turner.

Similar value players but M.Turner plays a position of need. Celtics would finally have true balance.

It's a deal that help both teams.

It might even help the Pacers more.

But if the Celts are going to give up Smart, might as well go after Drummond.

Drummond is better than Myles Turner.

I prefer Turner to Drummond. More versatile both on offense and on defense. Not a big Drummond fan.

Actually not sure about offence - sure Turner can shoot, but Drummond's finishing and offensive rebounding do hold value even though they're slightly frowned upon in the modern game (hunting for offensive rebounds leaves your transition defence wide open while finishing is contingent on good enough spacing to really wreak havoc on defences). I think Drummond's offence would look really good in Boston's offensive scheme (we have 2 elite defensive wings and arguably the best non-big defender in the league to protect our transition defence and we have enough shooting to space the floor for one non-shooter), I'm just not sure whether his defence will be comparable to what Theis has done for us so far (borderline elite stuff from him imo, his versatility is incredibly valuable in our scheme).

I don't count offensive rebounding as offense. I count it as rebounding. I look at basketball in three phases -- (1) when you have the ball (2) when the other team has the ball (3) when neither team has the ball. Rebounding is the in the 3rd phase.

So when I evaluate Drummond's offense vs Myles Turner's offense I look at Drummond's paint scoring against Turner's floor spacing & paint scoring. This is why I rate Turner's offense ahead of Drummond's offense.

Drummond is, however, a considerably better passer than Turner, and is able to generate more offence for himself and his team through his rebounding, which sits at nearly 11 more RPG than Turner's.

I am not sure Drummond generates good offense for himself. He feeds well off of others. His own post game is rudimentary and often causes problems for his own team when he goes looking for it. Turner's post game is just as good if not slightly better. He just doesn't get as many opportunities as Drummond does because Detroit's offense sucks.

Drummond's rebounding is genuinely sensational. And yes, better passer (more average than good but that is still a lot better than Myles Turner's passing).

Worth noting that Drummond's passing was even worse than Turner's passing during the first 4 years of their careers. It wasn't until Stan Van Gundy made an effort to get Drummond to improve it that Drummond became a capable passer. You can't make/create/coach players into being great passers in basketball but most players can become average ones with practice and coaching.

[Jvalin]

I don’t think Turner could be classified as even an average rebounder. His highest rebound % is 13.9, and he’s currently sitting below 11 - Theis is sitting over 15 and was at 16 as a rookie.

For the discount Smart is in terms of contract, and for the intangibles and leadership he brings, I wouldn’t even consider a deal based around them.

I'd probably keep Smart too, but this idea that Turner is going to kill our rebounding when we've been playing Horford and Theis at center the last few years don't make much sense to me. 11 vs 15 or 16 is cherry picking - their career numbers are much closer than that, with Turner playing every night alongside Sabonis who is by far the best rebounder on either team while Theis was usually the best rebounder in his lineup.

PTS / REB / BLK / 3PT
--------------------------
13.6 / 6.7 / 1.3 / 1.1
13.3 / 7.2 / 2.7 / 1.0

That's Al Horford and Myles Turner last year, and Turner played slightly fewer minutes. Horford was the superior passer, but Turner had double the blocks, double the free throw attempts, more rebounds, and a higher 3PT%. This is not to say I would have preferred Turner last year, but I think it does shed some light on the level of criticism here and unwillingness to trade any valuable asset for him.

Those raw stats might be similar but Horford is a Porsche for Turner.
Turners feel for the game is at a paleolithic stage of development.

Exactly. Turner can shoot, but he's not a good offensive player by any means.

Which isn't a problem for us, cause all we need is a defensive Center who can stretch the floor on offense. We can't have 5 alphas in the starting lineup. There won't be enough shots for everybody and we 'll end up a dysfunctional team, like we were last season.

I simply don't see that this is a problem worth gutting our team over

And I simply don't see us beating the Bucks/the Sixers come playoff time with Theis defending Giannis-BroLo/Horford-Embiid.

If Danny believes that the C's are not ready to contend this season, I'm perfectly happy with our current roster. No point waisting assets with a view to playing a few more playoff games. If he believes that the C's might have a chance, we got to make a trade.

Personally speaking, I believe we have a chance, hence I want us to make a trade.

And getting Turner won't help us defend those guys except for Brook. I think our best shot is hoping that either Gasol/Favors gets bought out and we snap them up off waivers.

I'd be perfectly happy with this scenario, but we can't just build our hopes on the buyout market. I mean, what happens if we strike out? Chances are that we won't be able to make a trade anymore cause the trade deadline will have expired by then.

The way I see it, if Turner becomes available, we got to go after him.

Btw, no one can defend Giannis 1-on-1. Sending a help defender isn't the solution either cause he's an excellent passer. All we can do, is slow him down. Turner would do a far better job than Theis in this regard.

[Somebody]

I don’t think Turner could be classified as even an average rebounder. His highest rebound % is 13.9, and he’s currently sitting below 11 - Theis is sitting over 15 and was at 16 as a rookie.

For the discount Smart is in terms of contract, and for the intangibles and leadership he brings, I wouldn’t even consider a deal based around them.

I'd probably keep Smart too, but this idea that Turner is going to kill our rebounding when we've been playing Horford and Theis at center the last few years don't make much sense to me. 11 vs 15 or 16 is cherry picking - their career numbers are much closer than that, with Turner playing every night alongside Sabonis who is by far the best rebounder on either team while Theis was usually the best rebounder in his lineup.

PTS / REB / BLK / 3PT
--------------------------
13.6 / 6.7 / 1.3 / 1.1
13.3 / 7.2 / 2.7 / 1.0

That's Al Horford and Myles Turner last year, and Turner played slightly fewer minutes. Horford was the superior passer, but Turner had double the blocks, double the free throw attempts, more rebounds, and a higher 3PT%. This is not to say I would have preferred Turner last year, but I think it does shed some light on the level of criticism here and unwillingness to trade any valuable asset for him.

Those raw stats might be similar but Horford is a Porsche for Turner.
Turners feel for the game is at a paleolithic stage of development.

Exactly. Turner can shoot, but he's not a good offensive player by any means.

Which isn't a problem for us, cause all we need is a defensive Center who can stretch the floor on offense. We can't have 5 alphas in the starting lineup. There won't be enough shots for everybody and we 'll end up a dysfunctional team, like we were last season.

I simply don't see that this is a problem worth gutting our team over

And I simply don't see us beating the Bucks/the Sixers come playoff time with Theis defending Giannis-BroLo/Horford-Embiid.

If Danny believes that the C's are not ready to contend this season, I'm perfectly happy with our current roster. No point waisting assets with a view to playing a few more playoff games. If he believes that the C's might have a chance, we got to make a trade.

Personally speaking, I believe we have a chance, hence I want us to make a trade.

And getting Turner won't help us defend those guys except for Brook. I think our best shot is hoping that either Gasol/Favors gets bought out and we snap them up off waivers.

I'd be perfectly happy with this scenario, but we can't just build our hopes on the buyout market. I mean, what happens if we strike out? Chances are that we won't be able to make a trade anymore cause the trade deadline will have expired by then.

The way I see it, if Turner becomes available, we got to go after him.

Btw, no one can defend Giannis 1-on-1. Sending a help defender isn't the solution either cause he's an excellent passer. All we can do, is slow him down. Turner would do a far better job than Theis in this regard.

I'd rather keep Smart and use him on Giannis while throwing everyone we currently have as different looks to keep him guessing. And I'd rather not trade at all if our only option is trading one of our core 5 for someone like Turner/Drummond, it just doesn't help our squad that much because it takes away our options on the perimeter.

[Somebody]

I'd happily deal Smart for Myles Turner.

Similar value players but M.Turner plays a position of need. Celtics would finally have true balance.

It's a deal that help both teams.

It might even help the Pacers more.

But if the Celts are going to give up Smart, might as well go after Drummond.

Drummond is better than Myles Turner.

I prefer Turner to Drummond. More versatile both on offense and on defense. Not a big Drummond fan.

Actually not sure about offence - sure Turner can shoot, but Drummond's finishing and offensive rebounding do hold value even though they're slightly frowned upon in the modern game (hunting for offensive rebounds leaves your transition defence wide open while finishing is contingent on good enough spacing to really wreak havoc on defences). I think Drummond's offence would look really good in Boston's offensive scheme (we have 2 elite defensive wings and arguably the best non-big defender in the league to protect our transition defence and we have enough shooting to space the floor for one non-shooter), I'm just not sure whether his defence will be comparable to what Theis has done for us so far (borderline elite stuff from him imo, his versatility is incredibly valuable in our scheme).

I don't count offensive rebounding as offense. I count it as rebounding. I look at basketball in three phases -- (1) when you have the ball (2) when the other team has the ball (3) when neither team has the ball. Rebounding is the in the 3rd phase.

So when I evaluate Drummond's offense vs Myles Turner's offense I look at Drummond's paint scoring against Turner's floor spacing & paint scoring. This is why I rate Turner's offense ahead of Drummond's offense.

I think that's an incorrect way of looking at it. Offensive rebounding generates offence - you get a ton of looks near the basket with that skill and it's an opportunity for you to create for your teammates (you can pass to an open teammate after the offensive rebound or have a teammate snatch the ball while you're fighting to grab the carom for an easy bucket). It's very much a facet of offence - I think counting it as rebounding alone is as modern as thinking that sticking 2 7 footers without skill and mobility in the frontcourt is a good idea. You can count it in your third phase, but winning that phase usually gives you a wide open opportunity to "win" in the first phase, that to me is generating offence. It's also a very portable offensive skill to have - you don't need the ball to fight for offensive rebounds!

When I evaluate both players' offence I look at it like this: are they major creators in an offence? if not, what skills do they have as complementary offensive players? do they make life easier for creators to generate offence for the team (the threat of shooting and finishing to prevent offensive engines from being double teamed), are they efficient at being fed by elite offensive engines (the ability to make baskets from feeds, whether is it finishing near the rim or shooting the ball off the catch) and do they have the ability to improvise and add a bit more additive value aside from being fed (the ability to make the extra pass to a wide open teammate, the ability to find an opening and make a high leverage pass that is created by the defence collapsing due to the brilliance of the offensive engine or maybe even the ability to take advantage of a collapsing defence and generate offence by themselves)?

I see Drummond's advantages in finishing, passing and offensive rebounding superior to Turner's advantage in shooting (I don't think any of them have good enough isolation games to write home about, Turner's "advantage", if any, is minimal) on offence.

[Somebody]

Myles Turner is still a young player with room for improvement. He can grow as a passer from a non-passer to an average one. His shot selection can improve. He can be taught to find a couple more easy rolls to the basket each game for easier finishes inside. He has a bit of a post game with a nice turnaround shot. That can be used better against switches when smaller players switch onto him.

Myles Turner is not a finished article. He is still young and has room for improvement with good coaching. He has already improved tremendously on the defensive end of the floor over the last couple of years.

I like what he can be for Boston. A long term fit at center. Someone who can help right away but still grow and improve while being young enough to be a fit here for the next 10 years. To get a young center with that profile & youth and with genuine versatility on both ends of the court is highly valuable.

I'm a bit more pessimistic on him. I think he's a really good rim protector and can switch outside, ntm that he can shoot - but how much of a meaningful upgrade is he over Theis? He can't guard leviathans like Embiid and Giannis, so are we basically trading away one of our core 5 for a rich man's Theis who's a bit bigger but still not big enough to stop the monsters we need to face? Obviously Turner is still young and can improve, but I don't think he'll magically learn how to guard behemoths like Embiid and Giannis.

[W8ting2McHale]

He can't guard leviathans like Embiid and Giannis, so are we basically trading away one of our core 5 for a rich man's Theis who's a bit bigger but still not big enough to stop the monsters we need to face? Obviously Turner is still young and can improve, but I don't think he'll magically learn how to guard behemoths like Embiid and Giannis

I like the idea of Miles Turner as a Celtic. I don’t get why people repeatedly say he can’t play against Embiid and Giannis? Maybe he’s a little soft like Olynyk in the post? That would negate the whole “He’s a rim protector “ side of the argument, wouldn’t it?

Miles Turner is listed at 6’11” and 250lbs. Embiid is an in taller at 7’0” and 250lbs. He looks 270 to me, but he’s listed at 250. Giannis is listed at 6’11” and 242lbs. Turner is basically the same size as those “behemoths.” He’s not 220lbs like Nerlens Noel or Bamba, and he’s not 6’8” like Theis and Rob Williams.

He is NOT dwarfed by either of them. He might not be willing to bang with them inside, but that is a different matter. His length would bother both those players and that could alter their game and take them out of their rhythm enough for the Celtics to beat them.

[LilRip]

The more I think about it, if Drummond is available, the C’s should cash in one of their wings to get him. The tricky part is determining which one:

Hayward: the best player out of the 3 right now
Tatum: the player with the most potential
Brown: the player on the best contract

Why Drummond? His post up offense is pretty basic but he’s the best rebounder in the league, sets solid screens, and is a strong finisher. I think he’d actually flourish being surrounded by all our shooting and ball movement (I’m counting Smart as a reliable shooter now). Moving Theis to the 2nd unit helps that unit maintain its offense (because Theis has great IQ to be at the right place at the right time).

Outside of Hayward, I have no idea though how to make salaries work though - which means it’s likely this deal isn’t even being discussed at all. Just one of those hypotheticals

[Who]

Myles Turner is still a young player with room for improvement. He can grow as a passer from a non-passer to an average one. His shot selection can improve. He can be taught to find a couple more easy rolls to the basket each game for easier finishes inside. He has a bit of a post game with a nice turnaround shot. That can be used better against switches when smaller players switch onto him.

Myles Turner is not a finished article. He is still young and has room for improvement with good coaching. He has already improved tremendously on the defensive end of the floor over the last couple of years.

I like what he can be for Boston. A long term fit at center. Someone who can help right away but still grow and improve while being young enough to be a fit here for the next 10 years. To get a young center with that profile & youth and with genuine versatility on both ends of the court is highly valuable.

I'm a bit more pessimistic on him. I think he's a really good rim protector and can switch outside, ntm that he can shoot - but how much of a meaningful upgrade is he over Theis? He can't guard leviathans like Embiid and Giannis, so are we basically trading away one of our core 5 for a rich man's Theis who's a bit bigger but still not big enough to stop the monsters we need to face? Obviously Turner is still young and can improve, but I don't think he'll magically learn how to guard behemoths like Embiid and Giannis.

I am not looking for a center to guard Giannis or Embiid. I am looking for someone good who rounds out the team. Who can fit in with the team's style of play on both ends of the court. Myles Turner can do that.

No center can defend Giannis one-on-one except maybe Anthony Davis and even then Davis cannot stop him. Giannis is far too quick for every other center in the league. It is a forward's job to cover him and then Giannis is too strong, tall and long for them. Kawhi is the only guy that has stopped him.

What center can stop Embiid? He is too strong in the post except for only a handful of centers and even against those Embiid is more skillful away from the basket offensively and game-altering as a team defender & rebounder so he still creates a massive advantage for his side. Embiid stops Embiid. Not the opponents.

You defend them the best you can and you live with the results.

You stop their help. They are the guys you can stop.

[Who]

Theis has done a good job for Boston. You get to keep him and use him as the backup center. Now you have Myles Turner, Theis and Kanter as a 3rd stringer for when you need more bulk.

You could even put Theis and M.Turner on the floor together against certain opponents when you want more size and shot blocking.

[Somebody]

He can't guard leviathans like Embiid and Giannis, so are we basically trading away one of our core 5 for a rich man's Theis who's a bit bigger but still not big enough to stop the monsters we need to face? Obviously Turner is still young and can improve, but I don't think he'll magically learn how to guard behemoths like Embiid and Giannis

I like the idea of Miles Turner as a Celtic. I don’t get why people repeatedly say he can’t play against Embiid and Giannis? Maybe he’s a little soft like Olynyk in the post? That would negate the whole “He’s a rim protector “ side of the argument, wouldn’t it?

Miles Turner is listed at 6’11” and 250lbs. Embiid is an in taller at 7’0” and 250lbs. He looks 270 to me, but he’s listed at 250. Giannis is listed at 6’11” and 242lbs. Turner is basically the same size as those “behemoths.” He’s not 220lbs like Nerlens Noel or Bamba, and he’s not 6’8” like Theis and Rob Williams.

He is NOT dwarfed by either of them. He might not be willing to bang with them inside, but that is a different matter. His length would bother both those players and that could alter their game and take them out of their rhythm enough for the Celtics to beat them.

Rim protection doesn't equate to one on one post defence though. You can be an excellent rim protector but still get outmatched by the biggest of centres. Also Embiid is likely in the 270 pound range, he's really big for his height.

[Somebody]

Myles Turner is still a young player with room for improvement. He can grow as a passer from a non-passer to an average one. His shot selection can improve. He can be taught to find a couple more easy rolls to the basket each game for easier finishes inside. He has a bit of a post game with a nice turnaround shot. That can be used better against switches when smaller players switch onto him.

Myles Turner is not a finished article. He is still young and has room for improvement with good coaching. He has already improved tremendously on the defensive end of the floor over the last couple of years.

I like what he can be for Boston. A long term fit at center. Someone who can help right away but still grow and improve while being young enough to be a fit here for the next 10 years. To get a young center with that profile & youth and with genuine versatility on both ends of the court is highly valuable.

I'm a bit more pessimistic on him. I think he's a really good rim protector and can switch outside, ntm that he can shoot - but how much of a meaningful upgrade is he over Theis? He can't guard leviathans like Embiid and Giannis, so are we basically trading away one of our core 5 for a rich man's Theis who's a bit bigger but still not big enough to stop the monsters we need to face? Obviously Turner is still young and can improve, but I don't think he'll magically learn how to guard behemoths like Embiid and Giannis.

I am not looking for a center to guard Giannis or Embiid. I am looking for someone good who rounds out the team. Who can fit in with the team's style of play on both ends of the court. Myles Turner can do that.

No center can defend Giannis one-on-one except maybe Anthony Davis and even then Davis cannot stop him. Giannis is far too quick for every other center in the league. It is a forward's job to cover him and then Giannis is too strong, tall and long for them. Kawhi is the only guy that has stopped him.

What center can stop Embiid? He is too strong in the post except for only a handful of centers and even against those Embiid is more skillful away from the basket offensively and game-altering as a team defender & rebounder so he still creates a massive advantage for his side. Embiid stops Embiid. Not the opponents.

You defend them the best you can and you live with the results.

You stop their help. They are the guys you can stop.

And you can stop their help with our current personnel. Theis is a good centre who rounds out the team well, there's no need to trade one of our core 5 for a centre who provides those complementary attributes at a higher level when he has the same weakness (unable to stop the monsters in the paint).

[nickagneta]

In a 4 for 1 trade directly with Indy, the Pacers would need to cut and eat over $7 million worth of salary or trade them away before completing the deal. So not only would Indy be giving up the best player, they would have to eat at least $7 million in salary or give up picks to trade those players in salary dumps to teams that have space on their roster and in their salary situation to do the trade.(There are not a lot of teams, if any, that can do this at the moment)

Seems to me Indy would be able to close a deal for Turner that wouldn't require them to dump three current players and either their salaries or draft picks in the process.

[Monkhouse]

We need to quit with the comments regarding how Giannis or Embiid can be stopped... They will have off nights, and the only big that legitimately gave issues to both is now donning the 76ers jersey. But no one can literally stop them... Giannis is bound to have a back to back MVP season, and Embiid is a walking tank.

Ideally, I would want someone like WCJ, as he fits in the mold of Horford's defensive versatility but I know that's out of our scope right now.

Turner seems like the type of guy who could not only fit well in our offense, but due to his length, mobility, and his shot blocking ability help deter away most easy shots inside.

He also can space the floor, and he's generally been a consistent 13 PPG, 7 RPG, and 2 BPG in around 28-30 MPG, which is pretty solid.

I'm not quite sure what we could give them, but I also wouldn't be opposed to trading Hayward for Turner. Allows Hayward to go back home, and actually be one of the de-facto scorers for that team considering how weak their wing spot besides Lamb/Warren, plus Hayward's seems like he could fit alongside Brogdon/Oladipo.

Someone mentioned how the Pacers could beat the Celtics when healthy, but I think adding a multi-dimensional big that can shoot, block, and set nice screens can help amplify our team, and give more touches to our wing players/Kemba.

I also believe Stevens can help Turner become better at making better and simple passes.

[wiley]

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yx34n47c

To Boston:     Capela, TJ Leaf, Jakar Sampson, pick from Indy.
To Houston:   M. Turner, J. Tatum
To Indiana:    PJ Tucker, R. Williams, Langford, Poirier


Boston solves bigs issue.  Capela is on great contract.  Sampson has toughness and energy off the bench.
Theis gets more minutes at PF with Tatum gone.

Capela, Kanter, Theis
Hayward, Theis, G. Williams, Leaf
Brown, Hayward, Sampson
Smart, Brown, Green, Edwards
Kemba, Smart, Wannamaker (sign Waters this year instead of waiting?...yes please)


I think this makes the C's tougher.  BUT, of course I would chicken out and not do it due to Tatum's potential...