Why can't Kanter be taught/learn defense?

[RPGenerate]

Kanter's defensive rating is 100.8, which is, by the way, 8.2 points lower than Robert Williams defensive rating. The team also allows exactly 105 points per 48 minutes whether Kanter is on the court or off(Kanter's on/off court offensive #s are 117/110. Also, Kanter's top 2 five man groupings by minutes played:

Walker, Smart, Brown, Tatum, Kanter and
Wanamaker, Edwards, Tatum, Ojeleye, Kanter

have excellent defensive numbers. That's also true for the 4th, 5th and 6th most often used Kanter groupings.

What I think this tells us is that:

1. Stevens has already figured out who to put with Kanter when he is on the floor and when in the game to use him, specifically, when he can play with 4 starters or when he is part of a unit playing the other team's bench.

2. This use of Kanter is working and his defesive limitations aren't killing the team.

3. Kanter is probably playing way better overall team defense than some are giving him credit for.

https://stats.nba.com/team/1610612738/players-traditional/?Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=PTS&dir=1

http://www.82games.com/1920/19BOS16.HTM

Wow, I wasn't expecting to see numbers like that. On the surface he seems to be constantly blown by, even with other somewhat athletic centers. Brad is really great at hiding bad defensive players tho, so I shouldn't be surprised.

[PhoSita]

Playing basketball is really hard especially at the NBA level and some guys just don't make the right reads fast enough no matter how hard they practice or work at it.

Same reason you can't teach everyone to shoot, talent is a big part of defense and all of basketball really.

Yeah I think this is all completely spot on.

[Sophomore]

Here’s a different advanced stat perspective on Kanter: literally worst in the league when it comes to opponent shooting % at the rim. Opponents shoot 12.9% better against Kanter than anybody else, and they get to the rim more often. Maybe other players can cover for him some, and Brad holds him out of the very worst matchups, but in no way is he even a mediocre defender.

https://twitter.com/maxacarlin/status/1204232263732477952?s=20

[SHAQATTACK]

Playing basketball is really hard especially at the NBA level and some guys just don't make the right reads fast enough no matter how hard they practice or work at it.

Same reason you can't teach everyone to shoot, talent is a big part of defense and all of basketball really.

basketball IQ is a gift like height ,   the abilities to both see the play develop, process and have the athletic skills to react in a fraction of a sec is a very special combination.  Why Smart is in a class all his own . 

[keevsnick]

Kanter's defensive rating is 100.8, which is, by the way, 8.2 points lower than Robert Williams defensive rating. The team also allows exactly 105 points per 48 minutes whether Kanter is on the court or off(Kanter's on/off court offensive #s are 117/110. Also, Kanter's top 2 five man groupings by minutes played:

Walker, Smart, Brown, Tatum, Kanter and
Wanamaker, Edwards, Tatum, Ojeleye, Kanter

have excellent defensive numbers. That's also true for the 4th, 5th and 6th most often used Kanter groupings.

What I think this tells us is that:

1. Stevens has already figured out who to put with Kanter when he is on the floor and when in the game to use him, specifically, when he can play with 4 starters or when he is part of a unit playing the other team's bench.

2. This use of Kanter is working and his defesive limitations aren't killing the team.

3. Kanter is probably playing way better overall team defense than some are giving him credit for.

https://stats.nba.com/team/1610612738/players-traditional/?Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=PTS&dir=1

http://www.82games.com/1920/19BOS16.HTM

Wow, I wasn't expecting to see numbers like that. On the surface he seems to be constantly blown by, even with other somewhat athletic centers. Brad is really great at hiding bad defensive players tho, so I shouldn't be surprised.

So  think there are three things to remember, first he plays a vast majority of his minutes against backups which allows him to hide quite a bit. Even the best NBA benches generally decline quite a bit offensively from the starting lineup. Secondly we actually have a pretty good defensive bench. The C's play Semi, Grant, Tatum, Wanamaker al of whom are average to very good on defense around Kanter which does help cover for him  a fair amount. Thirdly this is the regular season, individual matchups arent targeted nearly as much during the season as they are n the playoffs. Its why a guy can survive perfectly well in season, then get played off the court is a playoff series. I think Kanter is probably that kind of guy.

Also I would need to see how well teams are shooting when he's on the floor, because there also chance with his small sample size that its just luck thus far. The previous two years his defensive rating was 12.6 and 111.5, which is not good.

[CelticsPoetry]

I don’t have the advanced stats to back this, but the eye test shows opposing players going right by Kanter if they can get him in space; it’s like he’s not even there. He can be decent when an opposing big tries to shoulder him aside, but that’s about it. He’s also less likely to be exposed when the other team doesn’t have a shooter running the pick and roll (Simmons) but he’s obviously useless containing a skilled shooter/driver (Dinwiddie); not great against quicker bigs either - Brad saw pretty clearly that playing him against the Heat would be disastrous. That other players can sometimes cover for his limitations is not evidence he’s a great defender.

In a perfect world the Cavs won’t find a trade partner and buy out Tristan Thompson, who decides to ring chase with Boston. The upgrade over Kanter would be very very noticeable. I doubt we live in that world but I’ll hope for it until February.

Please no, have you not heard of the Kardashian curse?

[nickagneta]

Here’s a different advanced stat perspective on Kanter: literally worst in the league when it comes to opponent shooting % at the rim. Opponents shoot 12.9% better against Kanter than anybody else, and they get to the rim more often. Maybe other players can cover for him some, and Brad holds him out of the very worst matchups, but in no way is he even a mediocre defender.

https://twitter.com/maxacarlin/status/1204232263732477952?s=20

I wonder how much of that at the rim number this year is due to his man getting an offensive rebounding and putting it in? I mean, look at his mid range opponents FG%. He holds them to 11.9% below the league average.

Also, that 12.9% number is ridiculously high as compared to his other years so it's an outlier that probably needs a reason to explain it. I think the reason is because he is the only big on the floor for Boston, the rest of the team aren't great rebounders, and because of that the team gives up tons of offensive rebounds and 2nd chance putbacks, often by the guy Kanter would be considered guarding.

Now, I am not saying Kanter is a good defender or that his defense is as good as some of his on/off numbers or defensive ratings and I don't think he is the worst defender in the league at the rim, per your provided stat.

What I think is Kanter is a below average to poor overall defender that sucks when switched onto quicker players who can handle the ball but I think he is quite serviceable when surrounded by the right players and playing against the right players. I also think the team's lack of quality defensive rebounders makes some of Kanter's numbers look bad.

Lastly, I think Stevens should be credited for finding the right people to surround Kanter and playing him at the right time and against the right opposition to make Kanter a net positive on the court.

[keevsnick]

Here’s a different advanced stat perspective on Kanter: literally worst in the league when it comes to opponent shooting % at the rim. Opponents shoot 12.9% better against Kanter than anybody else, and they get to the rim more often. Maybe other players can cover for him some, and Brad holds him out of the very worst matchups, but in no way is he even a mediocre defender.

https://twitter.com/maxacarlin/status/1204232263732477952?s=20

I wonder how much of that at the rim number this year is due to his man getting an offensive rebounding and putting it in? I mean, look at his mid range opponents FG%. He holds them to 11.9% below the league average.

Also, that 12.9% number is ridiculously high as compared to his other years so it's an outlier that probably needs a reason to explain it. I think the reason is because he is the only big on the floor for Boston, the rest of the team aren't great rebounders, and because of that the team gives up tons of offensive rebounds and 2nd chance putbacks, often by the guy Kanter would be considered guarding.

Now, I am not saying Kanter is a good defender or that his defense is as good as some of his on/off numbers or defensive ratings and I don't think he is the worst defender in the league at the rim, per your provided stat.

What I think is Kanter is a below average to poor overall defender that sucks when switched onto quicker players who can handle the ball but I think he is quite serviceable when surrounded by the right players and playing against the right players. I also think the team's lack of quality defensive rebounders makes some of Kanter's numbers look bad.

Lastly, I think Stevens should be credited for finding the right people to surround Kanter and playing him at the right time and against the right opposition to make Kanter a net positive on the court.

I don't really buy that explanation, I don't see how you could have players getting a high enough volume of offensive rebounds to alter their shooting percentages in that meaningful of a way especially when you consider that a good portion of offensive rebounds arent going to result in an immediate offensive put back. And for players who are high volume offensive rebounders its likely to make even less of a difference since those guys tend to have high shooting percentages anyway. Add to that that kanter should in theory actually decrease overall offensive rebounding by himself being a good rebounder and I don't think that really comes close to explaining it.

I think the far more likely possibility to simply kanter is not good defensively individually but playing him against second units with a good defense around him and mitigate the overall impact in the regular season.

[Hoopvortex]

Lastly, I think Stevens should be credited for finding the right people to surround Kanter and playing him at the right time and against the right opposition to make Kanter a net positive on the court.

I think the far more likely possibility to simply kanter is not good defensively individually but playing him against second units with a good defense around him and mitigate the overall impact in the regular season.

I think the two of you are not very far apart here.


A few observations:

1) Kanter has consistently been at or near the top of the league in offensive rebounding. He’s at a phenomenal 16.4% right now; in 2018 with the Knicks he led the league at 16.6%. Defensive rebounding, however, is another matter. Currently, he’s at 21.6% - nothing special; but again, in 2018 he logged an outstanding 30.6%. Sample size artifacts? Probably he’ll look better in a couple of months.

We really need to separate out offensive from defensive rebounding. They have overlapping but distinct skillsets; more importantly, different coaches place widely different priorities on the two. In our era a coach is more likely to prioritize getting back on defense, especially for ballhandlers and wings. Put another way, you can construct an effective offense with offensive rebounding a low priority, but you have to get defensive rebounds.

2) His lateral movement is not great. Part of that is a player’s anticipation; that can improve - to a point - as a player learns what the coaching staff wants and what his teammates do, where the help is coming from and what his man’s tendencies are. Only to a point, though.

Part of it is conditioning - being able to hold a defensive stance and burst off the floor. Part of it is flexibility. Those can be improved. He likely won’t ever have the anticipation of Ojeleye, the burst of Carsen, or the flexibility of Rob Williams, but he could get better. And that would make him a better defender.

3) Whatever encouraging signs the team has shown, improving defensive rebounding is a priority. Boston is 5th in Opponent eFG%, and 25th in DRbd% - meaning they’ve got to defend a whole lot of possessions twice.

Enes Kanter has obviously got the ability. It’s time for him to get more defensive boards. Whatever he can do to become a better defender is welcome; but the area where he could perhaps help the team defense the most is by doing something that he’s already very good at.

[tenn_smoothie]

Playing basketball is really hard especially at the NBA level and some guys just don't make the right reads fast enough no matter how hard they practice or work at it.

Same reason you can't teach everyone to shoot, talent is a big part of defense and all of basketball really.

Well ......... not the best comparison. Shooting is fine motor skill - like hitting a baseball. Playing good defense demands good footwork, coordination, effort and focus -kinda like a shortstop playing the infield - plus understanding the concept of TEAM man-to-man and having the feel or instinct to anticipate and react correctly.

[W8ting2McHale]

Playing basketball is really hard especially at the NBA level and some guys just don't make the right reads fast enough no matter how hard they practice or work at it.

Same reason you can't teach everyone to shoot, talent is a big part of defense and all of basketball really.

Well ......... not the best comparison. Shooting is fine motor skill - like hitting a baseball. Playing good defense demands good footwork, coordination, effort and focus -kinda like a shortstop playing the infield - plus understanding the concept of TEAM man-to-man and having the feel or instinct to anticipate and react correctly.

Well....those additional variables would seem to imply that good defensive skills are more difficult to obtain than shooting skills. If it were just about effort there would be a lot more Marcus Smarts in the league.

[TDurden]

Are we not pretending Kanter is a good defender anymore?  Did I miss a poll or something?

[gouki88]

Are we not pretending Kanter is a good defender anymore?  Did I miss a poll or something?

I don't think anyone thought that genuinely. Or maybe I hope they didn't. Rather, I think people were of the view that Kanter could be hidden by good coaching, which Brad has so far been able to do for the most part.

[Surferdad]

Lastly, I think Stevens should be credited for finding the right people to surround Kanter and playing him at the right time and against the right opposition to make Kanter a net positive on the court.

I think the far more likely possibility to simply kanter is not good defensively individually but playing him against second units with a good defense around him and mitigate the overall impact in the regular season.

I think the two of you are not very far apart here.


A few observations:

1) Kanter has consistently been at or near the top of the league in offensive rebounding. He’s at a phenomenal 16.4% right now; in 2018 with the Knicks he led the league at 16.6%. Defensive rebounding, however, is another matter. Currently, he’s at 21.6% - nothing special; but again, in 2018 he logged an outstanding 30.6%. Sample size artifacts? Probably he’ll look better in a couple of months.

We really need to separate out offensive from defensive rebounding. They have overlapping but distinct skillsets; more importantly, different coaches place widely different priorities on the two. In our era a coach is more likely to prioritize getting back on defense, especially for ballhandlers and wings. Put another way, you can construct an effective offense with offensive rebounding a low priority, but you have to get defensive rebounds.

2) His lateral movement is not great. Part of that is a player’s anticipation; that can improve - to a point - as a player learns what the coaching staff wants and what his teammates do, where the help is coming from and what his man’s tendencies are. Only to a point, though.

Part of it is conditioning - being able to hold a defensive stance and burst off the floor. Part of it is flexibility. Those can be improved. He likely won’t ever have the anticipation of Ojeleye, the burst of Carsen, or the flexibility of Rob Williams, but he could get better. And that would make him a better defender.

3) Whatever encouraging signs the team has shown, improving defensive rebounding is a priority. Boston is 5th in Opponent eFG%, and 25th in DRbd% - meaning they’ve got to defend a whole lot of possessions twice.

Enes Kanter has obviously got the ability. It’s time for him to get more defensive boards. Whatever he can do to become a better defender is welcome; but the area where he could perhaps help the team defense the most is by doing something that he’s already very good at.

I gave you a TP for the great post. 

The highlighted part is my pet-peeve.  You have to expend a lot more energy playing defense than offense.  This is because anticipating and reacting to the offense uses a lot of energy that ends up not being productive in terms of stopping the opposing team from scoring on that possession.  There's nothing you can do about that.  However, if you can't get the defensive rebound then you have to expend up to 24 more seconds playing defense.  So, defensive rebounding has a double-benefit of stopping the other team from scoring AND saving energy expended by the other players on defense.

[tstorey_97]

Thanks to all of you for insightful posts.

Kanter's feet don't happen. His arms don't happen and he doesn't see the next step coming in a play on the defensive end.

Stevens has him on the court with Semi or the duo of Smart & Brown as these three take defensive responsibilities to the highest level.

One observation on this threadreally sums it up.

If Kanter was an above average defender? He'd be $20M+ a year and we couldn't afford him.