Taking stock of the Celtics bench

[keevsnick]

So at almost the quarter point of the year I though it might be interesting to take stock of the second unit. For the sake of this discussion I consider Kemba, Smart, Brown, Hayward, Tatum and Theis as starters.Yes I know thats six guys, but they've all started more than half the games they'v played. I will also leave out Fall, Waters and Langford who we simply havent seen enough to make an informed opinion about. So, whats your overall grade for second unit performance and how would you power rank the remaining players. My ranking with grades (relative to reasonable expectations).

Bonus: If you could add one player type (ex: rim protector) to the bench, what would if be?

Wanamaker- A
-50/40/90 splist with about 8 points a game. A soid back up PG who is effeicinet and big enough to be slid defensively. Seesm to get to the line a decent amount.

G Will- B-
-Can't hit a three, but arguably been our best defensive option on the seocnd unit. Good passer, has made some big plays late. If he just hits his threes he will be a valuble player long term , think PJ Tucker.

RWIII- B-
-Makes some astounding playes, puts heavy pressure on the rim adding a differnet dynamic on offense which I think legitmtately helps the offense. Needs to get smarter on defense and cut out silly mistakes, but also makes plays nobody else can make.
 
Kanter- C+
-Bad on defense, like really bad, but in the right match up provides offensive rebounding that can bail out bad offense.

Semi- C+
-Seems to be hitting shots more recently, prrobably overated on defense but still good on that end. 3+D rotation player?

Green- C
-Has flashed some skills.

Edwards- D
-If he's not hitting shots he doesnt do much, and he hasnt been hitting shots. Hope that chnages.

VP -D
-Last man on the bench right now.

Bonus: I would add a elite spot up shooter type. Just somebody to fire away, provide spacing.

[Somebody]

Wannamaker: B+
Solid backup PG who's always under control and makes the right read every time, translating to high efficiency scoring and quality passing that's additive (adds value to any kind of offence, even good ones where he can't hold the ball as much). Also a solid defender who won't hurt your team on that end of the court.

Kanter: B-
Elite rebounder and quality inside scorer who provides us a different look on offence, and can demoralise teams that we with his offensive rebounding and foul drawing. Also gives us an option against bigger teams that we have a size disadvantage against. Defence is poor, but he can be hidden in a drop zone scheme with our versatile perimeter defenders covering for him.

Grant: B-
Versatile player in the frontcourt who's saavy enough to provide value through complementary skills such as passing and defence. His shot has been awful so far but I'm confident that he'll start hitting open shots to bolster our floor spacing when he's on the floor.

Semi: C+
Good defender who can space the floor a bit, and is smart enough to not hurt our team offence while he's on the floor. Has also recently shown some dribbling skills and the ability to drive to the hoop to attack closeouts.

Robert: C+
Eye popping defensive highlight plays but is still inconsistent on that end of the floor due to a lack of experience and feel for the game on defence. Has a decent feel in passing on offence, but tends to get too cute with his passes at times and bleeds value when he does. Doesn't provide any spacing, and isn't a post scorer by any stretch of imagination. Pretty good finisher but isn't an elite one who collapses defences with his threat to catch lobs/interior passes for layups/dunks.

Green: C
Athletic wing with decent feel and IQ who's a nice third stringer.

Edwards: C-
Has gravity due to his threat to go off from three, but blows hot and cold. Also doesn't provide much except for shooting, although he's engaged on defence and tries to impact the game even when his shot isn't falling.

Poirier: Not enough information.

Bonus: I'd go for a Noel type at centre to give us another option at centre if Robert is still inconsistent in February. If Robert does improve I'd like a big guard or wing who can bomb away from three, like Wayne Ellington or Davis Bertans.

Btw I didn't rank Wannamaker that highly because I think A is for starting calibre players who come off the bench, like Smart (when Hayward is healthy)/Lou Williams/Harrell. If Smart slides down back to the bench I think our second unit is in the B-/B range.

[slamtheking]

I look at them as a collective group rather than individually since we're talking 'bench'.

I'd give them a B-/C+ as a unit.  some nights they (as in some of them) provide the needed support for the starters and some nights they don't.  I think once we have every starter back, we'll be in a better position to evaluate after about 10 games to see how they produce in the roles they were intended to fill. 

to me, the keys to improving their overall production going into the playoffs:
- GWill has to be a factor on offense.  I can live without him being a high-volume 3-pt shooter if he could start making buckets in close.  he's been struggling to hit anything all season.  If he can be relied on for 8-10 points a game off the bench that'd be huge.
- Carson has got to find the range so he can be the instant offense off the bench this team needs when Kemba/Smart/Tatum are not finding the range.  So far his regular season has not lived up to pre-season displays.
- Timelord has got to stop making the nightly stupid play resulting in TO's and buckets by the other team.  He also needs to get with the program on team D.  tries too hard to make a statement block than just making the other team have a difficult shot while maintaining defensive presence around the basket for a rebound.
- Wanamaker has been better than expected but he had a low bar to meet. 
- Green has shown flashes of being able to provide some scoring and D off the bench.  would make for a really solid 11th/12th man but has been pushed into more minutes than he should have been expected to play so far.
- Kanter needs to improve his D a bit more.  his efforts on offense and especially the offensive boards has been a big help but we really could use better D from him so he can be more of an asset on the floor.

[NKY fan]

C+ was my vote.
maybe we can add for shooting Svi Mihailuk from DET ( for 2nd Rd Pick)
or
and for rim protection Poetl from SAS (for the MWE 1st Rd pick)

[PhoSita]

I think the bench seems a lot better if you think of how the roster breaks down with Hayward healthy.

Wanamaker is a really solid backup guard.

Smart is an elite Swiss army knife defensive glue guy.

Kanter is matchup dependent but against opponents that can't punish his awful pick and roll D he's a great offensive rebounder and solid finisher.

Timelord is a bit inconsistent but he's made some really spectacular plays and been pretty productive.

Semi is a wall of muscle, and as long as he's hitting outside shots he's a solid piece.

Carsen is cold more often than he's hot but he's still making good plays even when his shot isn't falling. His shot will fall eventually.

Grant is not hitting anything but he's been out there during crunch time with the starters because he's really good defensive and keeps the ball moving on offense.



Overall the bench is solid. Not great, but plenty good enough to supplement that excellent starting group.

[apc]

As much as i like our young guys- if we want to contend we need to consolidate for a proven vet.
On our bench- 3 rookies , 2 2nd year.
2 promising guys in D league
1 Langford
2 more picks next year

Too young! Unless we are not thinking about this year or next one and more concerned with the future .

[Surferdad]

C+ was my vote.
maybe we can add for shooting Svi Mihailuk from DET ( for 2nd Rd Pick)
or
and for rim protection Poetl from SAS (for the MWE 1st Rd pick)

Me too, C+/B- which is the most popular grade so far.  Now I'll go back and read the individual grades people gave, some of which I definitely disagree with.

[RockinRyA]

C+ was my vote.
maybe we can add for shooting Svi Mihailuk from DET ( for 2nd Rd Pick)
or
and for rim protection Poetl from SAS (for the MWE 1st Rd pick)

How much do you think poetl will play here?! Id rather give those minutes to timelord.

[tstorey_97]

The bench is fine. Never thought I'd say this having watched the pre season, but, there isn't too much to complain about.

We are, after all talking about what? Three players? And here they are.

Kanter B+ - he's what we were expecting, not much on D, but, really adds a new dimension on offense. Brown - Tatum - Walker with Kanter going underneath doing "big guy" stuff? It's unbelievable. When was the last time a green uniform underneath was bigger than anyone on the other team? Kanter makes the offense better when he's on the court. (last 12 games below)

16 mpg
7.75 ppg
6.5 rpg
71 % FT

We have guys that can play defense and they will just have to keep it up when Kanter is on the court.

Wanamaker A/B+ - He's a veteran of the Spanish league and he's killing it. He did go through a turnover phase a couple of weeks ago, but, has essentially stopped throwing it to the other team. He does what he's supposed to when on the court and that is to...
1) pass it to one of our hall of fame scorers...every time.
2) pinch himself over the fact that he's getting big minutes on an NBA title contender instead of riding a bus to Barcelona or whatever...

17 mpg
8.6 ppg
2 reb
3 ast
91 ft%
49 fg%

Semi rounds it out and he's 9/21 from three in the last 12 games. Semi doesn't mess things up when he's out there and with Hayward back? Semi is our 9th guy.

The rest of the guys need minutes to get better and it looks like they are.

In games where Grant Williams is 0 for 22 from three?
The Celtics are 14-5.

In games where Carsen Edwards shoots 30%?
The Celtics are 14-5

BTW, Robert was in for the "end" of a game the other night. Big news.

Technically, we are looking at
Smart #6
Wanamaker #7
Kanter #8
Semi #9

and they have all been aok.

In a playoff game Celtics will be fine with those guys. Kanter/Wanamaker very pleasant surprises so far.

 


 

[ETNCeltics]

I'll leave Smart off because he's had to start so much, but it shouldn't be ignored that he comes off the bench when everyone is healthy. He's one of the league's best 6th men.

Wannamaker - A: Hard to argue with his contribution.

Kanter - C: I remain mystified how such a skilled offensive player can be so bad defensively.

RWilliams - C-: Has given us a lot of nice highlights and some promise as a passer. He's still got a long way to go. He tries to block everything instead of playing team D, and isn't scoring unless it's a dunk.

GWilliams - D: He started out nicely, but the last month, we're basically playing 4 on 5 when he's on the court. He can't guard anyone who has length or quickness, and his shooting is beyond atrocious, less than 20% since early November. His only real value atm is setting screens. His lack of height shows when he's trying to rebound against the taller teams. Not worried long term, he's a super smart guy who'll find his place, and he'll start making the open 3s.

Edwards - D: His stock and trade is as an offensive sparkplug, but he's giving no spark. He scored 18 in a game about 3 weeks ago, but has barely eclipsed that in the last 8 games combined. I think he'll settle down and be the scorer many of us think he can be, but right now, he is finding his way, doing things like passing up on an open jumper, driving and getting caught shooting a runner or making a bad pass out of it.

Semi - C- : One thing to watch, he's shooting nearly 50% going back to the start of the west coast swing, and his +/- is trending up. Could he be turning a corner, or is that just an anomaly?

[PhoSita]

GWilliams - D: He started out nicely, but the last month, we're basically playing 4 on 5 when he's on the court. He can't guard anyone who has length or quickness, and his shooting is beyond atrocious, less than 20% since early November. His only real value atm is setting screens. His lack of height shows when he's trying to rebound against the taller teams. Not worried long term, he's a super smart guy who'll find his place, and he'll start making the open 3s.

I really don't think this is true.  He has struggled to score but he's fit in really nicely so long as he's in lineups that feature multiple scorers.  His individual and team defense has been very good, to my eyes, and the numbers back that up.

In 245 minutes so far this year, the Celts have a 107.1 offensive rating with Grant on the floor.  That's not too bad.

Defensively, the team has a 99.4 rating with Grant on the floor.  That's very good.

[NKY fan]

C+ was my vote.
maybe we can add for shooting Svi Mihailuk from DET ( for 2nd Rd Pick)
or
and for rim protection Poetl from SAS (for the MWE 1st Rd pick)

How much do you think poetl will play here?! Id rather give those minutes to timelord.

I think Poetl can easily play 20 MPG here. ... Time Lord can be his "insurance policy" if Jakob is too expensive to retain. Again let Timelord earn the minutes not just give them to him..

[td450]

This team does not have a normal structure. It has 4 guys who all should average over 20 ppg starting. There is only one way to feed that, and that is to make those four guys the go to scorers for as much of the 48 minutes as possible.

This bench also includes Marcus Smart. We should judge this bench as strong defenders who help offensive flow without needing many shots. By that measure we have a good bench.

[bellerephon]

The bench is fine. Never thought I'd say this having watched the pre season, but, there isn't too much to complain about.

We are, after all talking about what? Three players? And here they are.

Kanter B+ - he's what we were expecting, not much on D, but, really adds a new dimension on offense. Brown - Tatum - Walker with Kanter going underneath doing "big guy" stuff? It's unbelievable. When was the last time a green uniform underneath was bigger than anyone on the other team? Kanter makes the offense better when he's on the court. (last 12 games below)

16 mpg
7.75 ppg
6.5 rpg
71 % FT

We have guys that can play defense and they will just have to keep it up when Kanter is on the court.

Wanamaker A/B+ - He's a veteran of the Spanish league and he's killing it. He did go through a turnover phase a couple of weeks ago, but, has essentially stopped throwing it to the other team. He does what he's supposed to when on the court and that is to...
1) pass it to one of our hall of fame scorers...every time.
2) pinch himself over the fact that he's getting big minutes on an NBA title contender instead of riding a bus to Barcelona or whatever...

17 mpg
8.6 ppg
2 reb
3 ast
91 ft%
49 fg%

Semi rounds it out and he's 9/21 from three in the last 12 games. Semi doesn't mess things up when he's out there and with Hayward back? Semi is our 9th guy.

The rest of the guys need minutes to get better and it looks like they are.

In games where Grant Williams is 0 for 22 from three?
The Celtics are 14-5.

In games where Carsen Edwards shoots 30%?
The Celtics are 14-5

BTW, Robert was in for the "end" of a game the other night. Big news.

Technically, we are looking at
Smart #6
Wanamaker #7
Kanter #8
Semi #9

and they have all been aok.

In a playoff game Celtics will be fine with those guys. Kanter/Wanamaker very pleasant surprises so far.

Semi is only playing this much because Hayward is out. When Hayward comes back Semi will likely be 10th or 11th behind GWilliams and Timelord. They are not better than Semi yet, but I think they both have higher ceilings and the Celts really want to develop them. Semi is a break glass in case of emergency type player at this point.

[NKY fan]

This team does not have a normal structure. It has 4 guys who all should average over 20 ppg starting. There is only one way to feed that, and that is to make those four guys the go to scorers for as much of the 48 minutes as possible.

This bench also includes Marcus Smart. We should judge this bench as strong defenders who help offensive flow without needing many shots. By that measure we have a good bench.

Well in the playoffs we should deploy the 3 headed monster at center ( EK, TL and DT)
then the rest of the positions will be mostly played by our best 5 players plus maybe Semi filling up here and there ... I think that will be optimal for us health permitting... So how good the bench is will be a moot point I hope.