Author Topic: We really should fire Danny Ainge  (Read 10395 times)

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Re: We really should fire Danny Ainge
« Reply #90 on: December 04, 2019, 09:52:29 PM »

Online tenn_smoothie

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I think DA is the best GM we had since Red

Given who has run the team since Red retired, that isn't much of a claim.
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Re: We really should fire Danny Ainge
« Reply #91 on: December 04, 2019, 10:03:55 PM »

Online tenn_smoothie

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My problem with Danny has been his thinking that post players are not important. He traded away #18 in 2011 when he traded Perk for a finesse wing, who turned out to also be a soft competitor. Perk and our interior strength that season was what set us apart from the other perimeter-heavy contenders. Danny over-valued athleticism and underestimated the importance of interior defense and rebounding. He still does.

Never did understand that about Danny, given the teams he played on. I know, i know - the game has changed.

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Re: We really should fire Danny Ainge
« Reply #92 on: December 04, 2019, 10:05:32 PM »

Offline gpap

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Iíll say this, Ainge may have made the acquisition of the summer in signing Kemba.

Re: We really should fire Danny Ainge
« Reply #93 on: December 05, 2019, 10:30:51 AM »

Offline Donoghus

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Iíll say this, Ainge may have made the acquisition of the summer in signing Kemba.

Getting Brown under wraps is looking more & more like a coup for Ainge too.


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Re: We really should fire Danny Ainge
« Reply #94 on: December 05, 2019, 11:39:37 AM »

Offline jambr380

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My problem with Danny has been his thinking that post players are not important. He traded away #18 in 2011 when he traded Perk for a finesse wing, who turned out to also be a soft competitor. Perk and our interior strength that season was what set us apart from the other perimeter-heavy contenders. Danny over-valued athleticism and underestimated the importance of interior defense and rebounding. He still does.

Never did understand that about Danny, given the teams he played on. I know, i know - the game has changed.

That's not true at all. Shaq and JO were expected to hold down the fort with Krstic adding an additional wrinkle. Perk was certainly not himself that season (and never was again) since he was coming back from injury.

Also, I don't know why people assume that Wade wouldn't destroyed Rondo's elbow just because Perk was there (if we're talking Butterfly Effect, then any number of other issues also could have occurred). No Rondo meant no #18. It really is that simple.

I loved Perk while he was here - he was a cult hero - but his lore seemingly grows with each passing year.

Re: We really should fire Danny Ainge
« Reply #95 on: December 05, 2019, 12:28:54 PM »

Offline slamtheking

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My problem with Danny has been his thinking that post players are not important. He traded away #18 in 2011 when he traded Perk for a finesse wing, who turned out to also be a soft competitor. Perk and our interior strength that season was what set us apart from the other perimeter-heavy contenders. Danny over-valued athleticism and underestimated the importance of interior defense and rebounding. He still does.

Never did understand that about Danny, given the teams he played on. I know, i know - the game has changed.

That's not true at all. Shaq and JO were expected to hold down the fort with Krstic adding an additional wrinkle. Perk was certainly not himself that season (and never was again) since he was coming back from injury.

Also, I don't know why people assume that Wade wouldn't destroyed Rondo's elbow just because Perk was there (if we're talking Butterfly Effect, then any number of other issues also could have occurred). No Rondo meant no #18. It really is that simple.

I loved Perk while he was here - he was a cult hero - but his lore seemingly grows with each passing year.
agreed.  Perk wasn't going to play that year and we had 3 other centers on the team that provided a lot more offense than perk and a couple that could provide pretty solid D.  I didn't like the trade because I loved Perk's team-first attitude but on a pure-talent basis, the trade was a win for Boston. 

Perk's health did indeed cost #18 but that was due to his injury in the 2010 finals when he couldn't play game 7 leaving KG and Sheed to play way too many minutes and end up  too gassed in the 4th quarter to play great D and rebound.

Re: We really should fire Danny Ainge
« Reply #96 on: December 05, 2019, 01:22:04 PM »

Offline NKY fan

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My problem with Danny has been his thinking that post players are not important. He traded away #18 in 2011 when he traded Perk for a finesse wing, who turned out to also be a soft competitor. Perk and our interior strength that season was what set us apart from the other perimeter-heavy contenders. Danny over-valued athleticism and underestimated the importance of interior defense and rebounding. He still does.

Never did understand that about Danny, given the teams he played on. I know, i know - the game has changed.

That's not true at all. Shaq and JO were expected to hold down the fort with Krstic adding an additional wrinkle. Perk was certainly not himself that season (and never was again) since he was coming back from injury.

Also, I don't know why people assume that Wade wouldn't destroyed Rondo's elbow just because Perk was there (if we're talking Butterfly Effect, then any number of other issues also could have occurred). No Rondo meant no #18. It really is that simple.

I loved Perk while he was here - he was a cult hero - but his lore seemingly grows with each passing year.
Danny could have traded for Robin Lopez the following year. Suns' asking price was a late 1st round pick which we had 2 the following year. Danny refused to do it and the Heat ended the Big three contention in game 7 that year.
Lopez definitely could have helped with some interior presence in that series. We only had 36 yr old KG and he couldn't keep up with Bosh in the end. he picked Melo and Sully with those two picks  ... no need to analyze that decision

Re: We really should fire Danny Ainge
« Reply #97 on: December 05, 2019, 01:34:55 PM »

Offline jambr380

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Slam, please don't remind me of 2010...that is far too painful to re-live. To this day, I haven't even seen a highlight from that game.

And, NYK, I agree that there were other options in 2012 to improve the front court. I try not to put too much blame on DA since he has always put a competitive product out on the floor, but he does have a habit of hoarding picks - even ones that don't have the potential to be high. I do think we played out of our minds in 2012, though, and am really unsure if anything could have been done to bring down the three-headed monster in MIA that year. I don't disagree that it would have been nice to see how we could have competed with a Robin Lopez type in the front court.

Re: We really should fire Danny Ainge
« Reply #98 on: December 05, 2019, 02:04:33 PM »

Offline slamtheking

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My problem with Danny has been his thinking that post players are not important. He traded away #18 in 2011 when he traded Perk for a finesse wing, who turned out to also be a soft competitor. Perk and our interior strength that season was what set us apart from the other perimeter-heavy contenders. Danny over-valued athleticism and underestimated the importance of interior defense and rebounding. He still does.

Never did understand that about Danny, given the teams he played on. I know, i know - the game has changed.

That's not true at all. Shaq and JO were expected to hold down the fort with Krstic adding an additional wrinkle. Perk was certainly not himself that season (and never was again) since he was coming back from injury.

Also, I don't know why people assume that Wade wouldn't destroyed Rondo's elbow just because Perk was there (if we're talking Butterfly Effect, then any number of other issues also could have occurred). No Rondo meant no #18. It really is that simple.

I loved Perk while he was here - he was a cult hero - but his lore seemingly grows with each passing year.
Danny could have traded for Robin Lopez the following year. Suns' asking price was a late 1st round pick which we had 2 the following year. Danny refused to do it and the Heat ended the Big three contention in game 7 that year.
Lopez definitely could have helped with some interior presence in that series. We only had 36 yr old KG and he couldn't keep up with Bosh in the end. he picked Melo and Sully with those two picks  ... no need to analyze that decision
that trade is another woulda/coulda/shoulda scenario that we could speculate was available to Danny.  it may have been, it may not have been.  Suns may have been pushing for a higher price than that from Danny as was rumored for a while after Danny swung the KG deal (and again later with the KG-PP trade with the Nets).

I don't know if Lopez would have been enough to get by Miami that year.  PP and KG were winding down in their careers and the Cheatles were still in their primes.

Re: We really should fire Danny Ainge
« Reply #99 on: December 05, 2019, 02:51:26 PM »

Offline NKY fan

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My problem with Danny has been his thinking that post players are not important. He traded away #18 in 2011 when he traded Perk for a finesse wing, who turned out to also be a soft competitor. Perk and our interior strength that season was what set us apart from the other perimeter-heavy contenders. Danny over-valued athleticism and underestimated the importance of interior defense and rebounding. He still does.

Never did understand that about Danny, given the teams he played on. I know, i know - the game has changed.

That's not true at all. Shaq and JO were expected to hold down the fort with Krstic adding an additional wrinkle. Perk was certainly not himself that season (and never was again) since he was coming back from injury.

Also, I don't know why people assume that Wade wouldn't destroyed Rondo's elbow just because Perk was there (if we're talking Butterfly Effect, then any number of other issues also could have occurred). No Rondo meant no #18. It really is that simple.

I loved Perk while he was here - he was a cult hero - but his lore seemingly grows with each passing year.
Danny could have traded for Robin Lopez the following year. Suns' asking price was a late 1st round pick which we had 2 the following year. Danny refused to do it and the Heat ended the Big three contention in game 7 that year.
Lopez definitely could have helped with some interior presence in that series. We only had 36 yr old KG and he couldn't keep up with Bosh in the end. he picked Melo and Sully with those two picks  ... no need to analyze that decision
that trade is another woulda/coulda/shoulda scenario that we could speculate was available to Danny.  it may have been, it may not have been.  Suns may have been pushing for a higher price than that from Danny as was rumored for a while after Danny swung the KG deal (and again later with the KG-PP trade with the Nets).

I don't know if Lopez would have been enough to get by Miami that year.  PP and KG were winding down in their careers and the Cheatles were still in their primes.
I remember a lot of useless facts and that is one of them. I remember reading that the Suns asking price at the deadline was a first round pick. This price is not surprising given that the Suns signed and traded Lopez to the Pelicans the following summer in exchange of a 1st round pick and bad salary (maybe they lowered their asking price).

Re: We really should fire Danny Ainge
« Reply #100 on: December 05, 2019, 03:07:26 PM »

Offline petbrick

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My problem with Danny has been his thinking that post players are not important. He traded away #18 in 2011 when he traded Perk for a finesse wing, who turned out to also be a soft competitor. Perk and our interior strength that season was what set us apart from the other perimeter-heavy contenders. Danny over-valued athleticism and underestimated the importance of interior defense and rebounding. He still does.

Never did understand that about Danny, given the teams he played on. I know, i know - the game has changed.

Not that I have access or time to get into the really fun advanced statistics, but over the last 10 years the eventual NBA champions have ranked thusly in rebounding (which, full caveat, is a massive oversimplication of one part of your post, but I'm about to do the washing up so my time is limited)

Numbers are Offensive, Defensive & Total compared to the rest of the league over the regular season:
  • Toronto: 24   9   17
  • GSW '18:  28   7   17
  • GSW '17: 20   3   7
  • CLE '16: 12   11   9
  • GSW '15: 23   4   6
  • SAS '14: 26   4   12
  • Miami '13: 28   16   30
  • Miami '12: 24   12   21
  • Dallas '11 : 28   6   14
  • Lakers '10:4   4   2
  • Lakers '09: 3   6   1

So.... The numbers seem to be all over the place, and (as you might suspect) while it's hard to be a championship team if you're in the bottom third of the league in rebounding, it's not impossible, and you don't have to be particularly "elite" (which these numbers hardly bear out, but, again, the washing up beckons)

Re: We really should fire Danny Ainge
« Reply #101 on: December 05, 2019, 07:51:53 PM »

Offline sgrogan

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15-5 for plan C. Danny keeps his options open.

Plan A KI+AD
Plan B KI+AH + kids, run it back
Plan C. replace the defectors. Go with the kids.

If somehow we could have Al and Kemba this team would be ELITE.


Re: We really should fire Danny Ainge
« Reply #102 on: December 05, 2019, 09:53:08 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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My problem with Danny has been his thinking that post players are not important. He traded away #18 in 2011 when he traded Perk for a finesse wing, who turned out to also be a soft competitor. Perk and our interior strength that season was what set us apart from the other perimeter-heavy contenders. Danny over-valued athleticism and underestimated the importance of interior defense and rebounding. He still does.

Never did understand that about Danny, given the teams he played on. I know, i know - the game has changed.

Not that I have access or time to get into the really fun advanced statistics, but over the last 10 years the eventual NBA champions have ranked thusly in rebounding (which, full caveat, is a massive oversimplication of one part of your post, but I'm about to do the washing up so my time is limited)

Numbers are Offensive, Defensive & Total compared to the rest of the league over the regular season:
  • Toronto: 24   9   17
  • GSW '18:  28   7   17
  • GSW '17: 20   3   7
  • CLE '16: 12   11   9
  • GSW '15: 23   4   6
  • SAS '14: 26   4   12
  • Miami '13: 28   16   30
  • Miami '12: 24   12   21
  • Dallas '11 : 28   6   14
  • Lakers '10:4   4   2
  • Lakers '09: 3   6   1

So.... The numbers seem to be all over the place, and (as you might suspect) while it's hard to be a championship team if you're in the bottom third of the league in rebounding, it's not impossible, and you don't have to be particularly "elite" (which these numbers hardly bear out, but, again, the washing up beckons)
Looking at the numbers bears out a strategy that the Celtics have had since Doc started here, that being, the heck with offensive rebounding, get back on defense. Most of those champions were terrible offensive rebounders but good to great defensive rebounders.

Looks like the C's have had that philosophy right for a while.

Re: We really should fire Danny Ainge
« Reply #103 on: December 05, 2019, 10:26:09 PM »

Offline Somebody

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My problem with Danny has been his thinking that post players are not important. He traded away #18 in 2011 when he traded Perk for a finesse wing, who turned out to also be a soft competitor. Perk and our interior strength that season was what set us apart from the other perimeter-heavy contenders. Danny over-valued athleticism and underestimated the importance of interior defense and rebounding. He still does.

Never did understand that about Danny, given the teams he played on. I know, i know - the game has changed.

Not that I have access or time to get into the really fun advanced statistics, but over the last 10 years the eventual NBA champions have ranked thusly in rebounding (which, full caveat, is a massive oversimplication of one part of your post, but I'm about to do the washing up so my time is limited)

Numbers are Offensive, Defensive & Total compared to the rest of the league over the regular season:
  • Toronto: 24   9   17
  • GSW '18:  28   7   17
  • GSW '17: 20   3   7
  • CLE '16: 12   11   9
  • GSW '15: 23   4   6
  • SAS '14: 26   4   12
  • Miami '13: 28   16   30
  • Miami '12: 24   12   21
  • Dallas '11 : 28   6   14
  • Lakers '10:4   4   2
  • Lakers '09: 3   6   1

So.... The numbers seem to be all over the place, and (as you might suspect) while it's hard to be a championship team if you're in the bottom third of the league in rebounding, it's not impossible, and you don't have to be particularly "elite" (which these numbers hardly bear out, but, again, the washing up beckons)
Looking at the numbers bears out a strategy that the Celtics have had since Doc started here, that being, the heck with offensive rebounding, get back on defense. Most of those champions were terrible offensive rebounders but good to great defensive rebounders.

Looks like the C's have had that philosophy right for a while.
It has actually been discussed by analytic circles since the late 2000s, defensive rebounding is much more valuable than offensive rebounding as it ends the opponent's offensive possession and secures your defensive possession, starts your offensive possession and gives you an opportunity to throw an outlet pass for a high percentage bucket if you grab a defensive rebound against a team that places an emphasis on crashing the offensive glass. Getting back on defence to stop outlets and fastbreaks is also more valuable than crashing the offensive glass, as it prevents outlet passes that result in high value looks for the opposition.
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Re: We really should fire Danny Ainge
« Reply #104 on: December 07, 2019, 04:55:01 AM »

Offline GreenlyGreeny

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I love Danny as much as the next guy and had faith in him during the rebuild. I still like our prospects and think a Finals appearance (or even championship) could occur this year with some good luck.

That said, two appearances in the Finals and one ring in 16 years does not impress me anymore unlike when that last number was 8 years...

If we do not make the Finals this year or next, we need to throw a ton of money at Ujiri if the opportunity presents itself and/or get the next wunderkind of MIT/Harvard/Stanford.

That said, we ought to re-sign Stevens to a 5-year extension pronto because thereís no way to upgrade him and, with a better GM, he would coach us to multiple championships.

Danny is a very good GM who is an all-time great trader and decent drafter, but he is below average at managing team chemistry and personnel relations (e.g., IT which possibly cost us AD). If this latest assembly does not change the status of the last piece, heís going to be shown the door at the end of this season or next. We need at least a Finals appearance, save for if it is a loss to the Lakers, to maintain our supremacy.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2019, 05:06:40 AM by GreenlyGreeny »