Author Topic: Timelord highlights vs Spurs - feeling giddy  (Read 6471 times)

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Re: Timelord highlights vs Spurs - feeling giddy
« Reply #75 on: November 11, 2019, 05:18:09 PM »

Offline Bobshot

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For  those of you who never saw Bill Russell play, he was not a good shooter. That was not his role.

His role was to defend the paint, get the ball and pass it to a guard quickly for the fast break.

He was the defensive glue which won the Celtics about 13 Championships when he played. Their MVP. They couldn't win without him.

Bill averaged about 16.5 ppg in his career, and most of those were putbacks and foul shots.

He and Shaq covered a Sports Illustrated story a while ago, in which they laughed about their inability to shoot foul shots.  They were both about 50% foul shooters.

To win a Championship, everyone must know his role. And the roles must be complementary.





Re: Timelord highlights vs Spurs - feeling giddy
« Reply #76 on: November 11, 2019, 06:08:20 PM »

Offline ETNCeltics

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The thing that make Lob so interesting is that he is not only a superb athlete BUT he is also a willing passer...

As he studies this beautiful game of basketball and continues to grow he will learn to keep the ball in play once he blocks it (ala Bill Russell)....

Dude also looks bigger in the shoulders, as if he's gained weight and been working out.

Loving his development.
I think the bolded is going to be tough. In the 50 years since Russell there have been shot blockers galore... bunches and bunches of them with athletic skills and basketball instincts better than Williams'. And in those 50 years how many have really mastered the art of blocking shots but making sure the ball stays inbound most of the time?

Not a whole lot, especially in the last couple decades where a massive block into the stands is received with as much excitement as an alley oop dunk.

Maybe years ago the skill of blocking a ball, keeping it in bounds and hopefully guide it to a team mate was taught. But not now. From high school age on, players who block shots attempt to block the ball into the stands so that play stops and the player can soak in the adulation. Crowds loving seeing big guys send the ball into the first row.

For these reasons, I just don't see Williams, or most any modern player, developing that Bill Russell skill of blocking shots.
FWIW Russell didn't only use his blocking ability to swat away high value attempts near the rim, he also used it to get into the heads of his opponents and make then hesitant to drive or shoot when Russell is nearby. I don't see Robert Williams ever developing that type of acumen, ntm keeping the ball inbounds during blocks.
At SAS 5/6 of balls on his blocks remained inbound.

THIS.

Was wondering if anyone else saw what I saw...additionally - I think there's a decent percentage of his blocks that do stay active - at least from my eye test.

Maybe someone here is tracking this stat? Would be welcome to seeing the actual percentage of his blocks staying active..

My thing is this: Never say never.

We thought we'd never see another Larry Bird or Hakeem either - then Luka Doncic and Joel Embiid happened.

Will Lob Williams ever become another Bill Russell? Sure that's quite the stretch. But I'm not placing any limits on this young fella's development towards that.
I do think that we shouldn't be too definitive when it comes to a young player's development, but let's be realistic - Russell's career was an onslaught of MVP seasons with a few All-Time seasons thrown in during his peak, it's very unlikely that Robert even comes close to that level of impact. And Doncic is a very different player compared to Bird, I just don't see the comparisons when one player is the greatest off ball perimeter engine ever while the other is another transcendent ball dominant quarterback in the likes of Magic/Bron/Oscar. Just going to laugh off the Hakeem/Embiid comparison, Embiid is a super poor man's Olajuwon (you're comparing a player with a peak year that only had an outside shot of winning MVP to a player with one of the best peaks among great big men), and it's not like Embiid is going to magically improve to that level with his current age (25/26 should be the close to a player's peak if it's not his best season).

Agree to disagree. And I don't make comments pertaining to "Laughing Off" anyone on this blog.

I know that with PHI there are some posters here that won't give Embiid his due because, well - he's PHI. But his skill set and comparison to ME cannot be denied.

And with Luka? Again MY eye test he reminds me so much of Larry..not going to waste time with superlatives.

Rob Williams will more than likely NOT approach Bill Russell's accomplishments - I get that. But as he improves in his own sphere he can develop a rep where our opponents will always have to be mindful of his presence.

THAT - to ME - would be Russell-like.
Sure. But I'd expect to get laughed off if I make a comparison on the lines of prime Reggie Lewis to peak Tracy McGrady. The difference between Embiid and Hakeem in terms of how good they are is huge, sure they might have some similar traits on offense (isolationist tendencies, mediocre vision and passing), but they're in different classes of big men.

You can stick to your eye test regarding how much Doncic reminds you of Larry - I won't disparage you because of it. But it'd make me think that your eye test is predicated on a player's appearance than how he actually plays, not going to waste time shouting about eye tests.

This isn't about accomplishments, I've stopped talking about them when it comes to player evaluations quite some time ago. It's simply based on how "good" a player is based on the tape I've watched on them tempered with impact metrics that aren't solely reliant on box stats, and I just don't think that Williams is likely to develop a Russell-like impact on defense. People really underrate Russell's defense - the 60s Celtics dynasty was carried by his defensive excellence. Is Williams going to have a defensive impact that causes teams to explode defensively and go from average teams to contenders (contender based on the teams' statistical performance rather than accolades, such as SRS)? I'll have to say that I'm rather skeptical on that happening. I respect your opinion, but I think it's a bit too idealistic (not that there's anything wrong with that, that's what fans do :laugh:).

I watched Larry Bird growing up - he was the sole reason I became a Celtics fan in 1981.

Yes - to see a white dude doing the things HE did? The WAY he did it? And for MANY years? He was special in a league where most players didn't look like him. He made quite the impression on my 12 year old mind back then.

Larry Bird is IMO the best SF to ever play the game.

Is that such a stretch for me to look at Luka Doncic the same way? I don't think so. In this Ultra-Politically correct society we live in nowadays is it a sin to compare Luka Doncic to Larry Bird?

Is Celticsstrong offended because of this? God I'd hope not.......

Luka is displaying the exact same craftiness....much of the same magic that made Larry Bird special. He is not as good defensively (yet) as Larry - and he may very well never achieve that level. But his shooting, rebounding, scoring, leadership - reminds me so much of Larry - the Hick from French Lick.

Luka is still developing - I'll give him that. DAL is still trying to put pieces around him to succeed. I don't think he's had quite the same level of talent around him (yet) to help the team win like Larry did.

Yes - every since I saw Larry Bird start to decline in the late 80s and retire in the early 90s I've been waiting for my next Larry Bird...GH reminds me of Larry somewhat but I still see Luka as being more dynamic.

Do I have to start tip-toeing around here in my comparisons with Luka?
IMO, Doncic is the best player to come into the league since Durant, and will be all NBA this season. He may be the best player since Lebron. He already has a total offensive game virtually no one else in the league has.

I don't think a comparison to Bird is out of order at all, that's the first player that came to mind when I first watched highlights 3 years ago.


Re: Timelord highlights vs Spurs - feeling giddy
« Reply #77 on: November 11, 2019, 06:10:45 PM »

Offline cman88

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so, if he develops what is Timelords best case scenario? Clint capela? Athletic center whom is solid defensively and gobbles up rebounds and dunks?

Re: Timelord highlights vs Spurs - feeling giddy
« Reply #78 on: November 11, 2019, 06:14:23 PM »

Offline wiley

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my own eye test tells me that Robert is a better than average passer for a big man. 

Then consider age and experience, and I have to heap a bit of extra praise on for that...

Re: Timelord highlights vs Spurs - feeling giddy
« Reply #79 on: November 11, 2019, 06:33:25 PM »

Online gouki88

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so, if he develops what is Timelords best case scenario? Clint capela? Athletic center whom is solid defensively and gobbles up rebounds and dunks?
I think his passing makes his potential a bit better than Capela. As a 22 year-old playing less than 16MPG he's averaging 0.6 more APG than Capela's career-high mark, which he hit playing over 33MPG.

I'm struggling to think of a contemporary athletic rim-protector who can pass
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Re: Timelord highlights vs Spurs - feeling giddy
« Reply #80 on: November 11, 2019, 06:49:30 PM »

Offline mr. dee

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Timelord is already better than Capela at his age. He also have more dimension in his game than Capela.

Re: Timelord highlights vs Spurs - feeling giddy
« Reply #81 on: November 11, 2019, 07:00:33 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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I would happily give up Williams' skill at passing for him to be a more dominant rebounder.

Re: Timelord highlights vs Spurs - feeling giddy
« Reply #82 on: November 11, 2019, 07:17:16 PM »

Offline Ogaju

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I would happily give up Williams' skill at passing for him to be a more dominant rebounder.

but first you will have to admit he has passing skills, right? I think he can have both, add the rebounding to the passing.

Re: Timelord highlights vs Spurs - feeling giddy
« Reply #83 on: November 11, 2019, 07:29:33 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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I would happily give up Williams' skill at passing for him to be a more dominant rebounder.

but first you will have to admit he has passing skills, right? I think he can have both, add the rebounding to the passing.
I said he was a decent to good passer for a big man, not that he had no passing skills. I just disagree that his passing skill being as advanced in quality as many, including you, think.

I think fwf gave the opinion I agree with most:
 
Quote
To me the promising thing about Williams' passing isn't so much expecting him to be elite at it, it's that it's a skill- and court vision-based ability, which bodes well for his ability to be a competent, well-rounded team player, rather than just a freak athlete who makes highlight plays. It makes me more optimistic for his development that he's already able to do this pretty well while being so raw in most other offensive areas. 

My comment about his rebounding stems from my long documented on this site preference of my big men being excellent rebounders and defenders first and foremost.

I would rather my big man be a 12-14 rebounds and 0-1 assists per game type player than a 8-10 rebounds and 2-3 assists type player.

But if Timelord can be a 12-14 rebound and 2-3 assist per game guy, even better. Let's hope so.


Re: Timelord highlights vs Spurs - feeling giddy
« Reply #84 on: November 11, 2019, 07:36:21 PM »

Offline keevsnick

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I would happily give up Williams' skill at passing for him to be a more dominant rebounder.

but first you will have to admit he has passing skills, right? I think he can have both, add the rebounding to the passing.
I said he was a decent to good passer for a big man, not that he had no passing skills. I just disagree that his passing skill being as advanced in quality as many, including you, think.

I think fwf gave the opinion I agree with most:
 
Quote
To me the promising thing about Williams' passing isn't so much expecting him to be elite at it, it's that it's a skill- and court vision-based ability, which bodes well for his ability to be a competent, well-rounded team player, rather than just a freak athlete who makes highlight plays. It makes me more optimistic for his development that he's already able to do this pretty well while being so raw in most other offensive areas. 

My comment about his rebounding stems from my long documented on this site preference of my big men being excellent rebounders and defenders first and foremost.

I would rather my big man be a 12-14 rebounds and 0-1 assists per game type player than a 8-10 rebounds and 2-3 assists type player.

But if Timelord can be a 12-14 rebound and 2-3 assist per game guy, even better. Let's hope so.

I dont think is passing is like incredible or anything, but very few young players come into the league "incredible" at anything (unless their Luka). I think the fact that he is what I would describe as "good" indicates that with improvement he could be very good to great. And while I wish he was an elite rebounder for a big man I'll take value in whatever form I can get it.

Re: Timelord highlights vs Spurs - feeling giddy
« Reply #85 on: November 11, 2019, 10:13:44 PM »

Offline gpap

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I want to see more of Timelord on the court. Sadly Brad didnít play him at all in the 4th quarter tonight

Re: Timelord highlights vs Spurs - feeling giddy
« Reply #86 on: November 11, 2019, 10:32:48 PM »

Offline ausbacker

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I want to see more of Timelord on the court. Sadly Brad didnít play him at all in the 4th quarter tonight

I mentioned this to a friend post-match (Stevens talking up Williams then giving him 17 minutes).

Re: Timelord highlights vs Spurs - feeling giddy
« Reply #87 on: November 11, 2019, 10:38:36 PM »

Offline keevsnick

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I want to see more of Timelord on the court. Sadly Brad didnít play him at all in the 4th quarter tonight

I mentioned this to a friend post-match (Stevens talking up Williams then giving him 17 minutes).

Its gonna be this way quite a few games. As much as he's shown he makes enough mistakes that hes a 15-20 minute guy, not a 25-30 minute guy. At least not yet, and thats fine for a second year guy picked at 27.

Re: Timelord highlights vs Spurs - feeling giddy
« Reply #88 on: November 11, 2019, 10:47:48 PM »

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The thing that make Lob so interesting is that he is not only a superb athlete BUT he is also a willing passer...

As he studies this beautiful game of basketball and continues to grow he will learn to keep the ball in play once he blocks it (ala Bill Russell)....

Dude also looks bigger in the shoulders, as if he's gained weight and been working out.

Loving his development.
I think the bolded is going to be tough. In the 50 years since Russell there have been shot blockers galore... bunches and bunches of them with athletic skills and basketball instincts better than Williams'. And in those 50 years how many have really mastered the art of blocking shots but making sure the ball stays inbound most of the time?

Not a whole lot, especially in the last couple decades where a massive block into the stands is received with as much excitement as an alley oop dunk.

Maybe years ago the skill of blocking a ball, keeping it in bounds and hopefully guide it to a team mate was taught. But not now. From high school age on, players who block shots attempt to block the ball into the stands so that play stops and the player can soak in the adulation. Crowds loving seeing big guys send the ball into the first row.

For these reasons, I just don't see Williams, or most any modern player, developing that Bill Russell skill of blocking shots.
FWIW Russell didn't only use his blocking ability to swat away high value attempts near the rim, he also used it to get into the heads of his opponents and make then hesitant to drive or shoot when Russell is nearby. I don't see Robert Williams ever developing that type of acumen, ntm keeping the ball inbounds during blocks.
At SAS 5/6 of balls on his blocks remained inbound.

THIS.

Was wondering if anyone else saw what I saw...additionally - I think there's a decent percentage of his blocks that do stay active - at least from my eye test.

Maybe someone here is tracking this stat? Would be welcome to seeing the actual percentage of his blocks staying active..

My thing is this: Never say never.

We thought we'd never see another Larry Bird or Hakeem either - then Luka Doncic and Joel Embiid happened.

Will Lob Williams ever become another Bill Russell? Sure that's quite the stretch. But I'm not placing any limits on this young fella's development towards that.
I do think that we shouldn't be too definitive when it comes to a young player's development, but let's be realistic - Russell's career was an onslaught of MVP seasons with a few All-Time seasons thrown in during his peak, it's very unlikely that Robert even comes close to that level of impact. And Doncic is a very different player compared to Bird, I just don't see the comparisons when one player is the greatest off ball perimeter engine ever while the other is another transcendent ball dominant quarterback in the likes of Magic/Bron/Oscar. Just going to laugh off the Hakeem/Embiid comparison, Embiid is a super poor man's Olajuwon (you're comparing a player with a peak year that only had an outside shot of winning MVP to a player with one of the best peaks among great big men), and it's not like Embiid is going to magically improve to that level with his current age (25/26 should be the close to a player's peak if it's not his best season).

Agree to disagree. And I don't make comments pertaining to "Laughing Off" anyone on this blog.

I know that with PHI there are some posters here that won't give Embiid his due because, well - he's PHI. But his skill set and comparison to ME cannot be denied.

And with Luka? Again MY eye test he reminds me so much of Larry..not going to waste time with superlatives.

Rob Williams will more than likely NOT approach Bill Russell's accomplishments - I get that. But as he improves in his own sphere he can develop a rep where our opponents will always have to be mindful of his presence.

THAT - to ME - would be Russell-like.
Sure. But I'd expect to get laughed off if I make a comparison on the lines of prime Reggie Lewis to peak Tracy McGrady. The difference between Embiid and Hakeem in terms of how good they are is huge, sure they might have some similar traits on offense (isolationist tendencies, mediocre vision and passing), but they're in different classes of big men.

You can stick to your eye test regarding how much Doncic reminds you of Larry - I won't disparage you because of it. But it'd make me think that your eye test is predicated on a player's appearance than how he actually plays, not going to waste time shouting about eye tests.

This isn't about accomplishments, I've stopped talking about them when it comes to player evaluations quite some time ago. It's simply based on how "good" a player is based on the tape I've watched on them tempered with impact metrics that aren't solely reliant on box stats, and I just don't think that Williams is likely to develop a Russell-like impact on defense. People really underrate Russell's defense - the 60s Celtics dynasty was carried by his defensive excellence. Is Williams going to have a defensive impact that causes teams to explode defensively and go from average teams to contenders (contender based on the teams' statistical performance rather than accolades, such as SRS)? I'll have to say that I'm rather skeptical on that happening. I respect your opinion, but I think it's a bit too idealistic (not that there's anything wrong with that, that's what fans do :laugh:).

I watched Larry Bird growing up - he was the sole reason I became a Celtics fan in 1981.

Yes - to see a white dude doing the things HE did? The WAY he did it? And for MANY years? He was special in a league where most players didn't look like him. He made quite the impression on my 12 year old mind back then.

Larry Bird is IMO the best SF to ever play the game.

Is that such a stretch for me to look at Luka Doncic the same way? I don't think so. In this Ultra-Politically correct society we live in nowadays is it a sin to compare Luka Doncic to Larry Bird?

Is Celticsstrong offended because of this? God I'd hope not.......

Luka is displaying the exact same craftiness....much of the same magic that made Larry Bird special. He is not as good defensively (yet) as Larry - and he may very well never achieve that level. But his shooting, rebounding, scoring, leadership - reminds me so much of Larry - the Hick from French Lick.

Luka is still developing - I'll give him that. DAL is still trying to put pieces around him to succeed. I don't think he's had quite the same level of talent around him (yet) to help the team win like Larry did.

Yes - every since I saw Larry Bird start to decline in the late 80s and retire in the early 90s I've been waiting for my next Larry Bird...GH reminds me of Larry somewhat but I still see Luka as being more dynamic.

Do I have to start tip-toeing around here in my comparisons with Luka?
I love how you accuse me of being a symptom of an "ultra-politically correct society", I'm not criticising your comparison because I don't think that Luka can be as good as prime Bird, I'm criticising your comparison because it seems to not account for how the two players actually function on the court. Yes they both have that "magical spice" when they have the ball - so do Jordan, LeBron and Magic, who play like offensive quarterbacks who dominate the ball, which is Doncic's current playstyle (bringing the ball up the court and calling for a million PnRs) instead of Bird's off ball playstyle where he catches the ball off a screen or cut and scores or passes, or initiates offense in the post. Luka might look like Bird when he's out there due to his appearance and guile with the ball, but they play very differently.
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Re: Timelord highlights vs Spurs - feeling giddy
« Reply #89 on: November 11, 2019, 10:57:11 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Bird was never an off the ball player. Quite the contrary. Gotta remember, back then it was strictly man defense and during the Celtics half court offense, it was quite common to give Bird the ball on one side of the court and have everyone else on the other side of the court. Bird then worked the guy guarding him for some sort of shot or pass to someone cutting.

You can't do that anymore.

Yes, Bird didn't always bring the ball up the court, but did at times. The thing is if he didn't bring the ball up himself, he was the first guy getting passed to in the half court sets so that he could initiate and run the offense.

Yes, Bird was also exceptional off ball but he wasn't an off ball player.