The shine is off of Tatum

[Rondo9]

Sigh If a thread like this is going to be the norm, then I think I'm going to take a hiatus from Celticsblog. I want to preserve my mental health.

It is only one game- however,  it is a valid question.
Tatum's skillset and gameplay are not progressing.
He remains an extremely talented player.
However, the mistakes that he makes are similar to the ones he has made in the past.
He did not shoot the ball particularly well, and that happens. 
But I was more concerned with these things:

• lack of court awareness when he was driving
  his overdribbling
  His stopping the ball from moving in the Celtics offense.
  His decisionmaking.
  his settling for the fall-away jumper
  He's trying to beat players off the dribble rather than off the catch.
  His lack of defensive toughness.
  
  I liked the fact that it was more aggressive with driving to the hoop.
  I liked the fact that he kept shooting open shots from the trey ball.
  
  I remain a huge Tatum fan. However, I am concerned that as talented as he is,  Tatum may stay as a top tier role player who never progresses to the level of All-Star.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  

One game. But you know if you if everyone is so eager to trade Tatum then go ahead pull a Rick Pitino because this is already tiresome.

[Ogaju]

NBA is  star driven league .... Celtics do not have a star. Need one of these high draft picks to burst out.

[Muzzy66]

Yeah, I know, he’s 21.  But I’ve seen near zero progress in his game entering his third year.  He’s talented, sure.  But he’s not super talented.  His fade-aways are really getting old.  His overall decision making is blah. 

He’s no longer a sure fire future all star, never mind a top 10 player in the league.

Am I overreacting?  Perhaps.  But bonafide stars make bigger leaps by now.  He hasn’t made one, and frankly, he’s getting to be frustrating to watch.

I couldn't disagree more.

Jimmy Butler didn't break out until his 4th year, age 25.
Gordon Hayward ddint break out until his 5th season, age 24.
Paul George didn't break out until his 4th season, age 23
Klay Thompson didnt break out until his 4th season, age 24
Steph Curry didnt break out until his 4th season, age 24.
Giannis didnt break out until his 4th season, age 22.

There are rare examples of truly elite franchise players who come in to the NBA and put up All-Star numbers wihtin their first year or two.  Guys like Duncan, Lillard, Kyrie, Lebron, Durant, etc.  It happens, but not that often.

The majority of star players don't truly break out and show their real potential until they hit aound their 4th or 5th season, usually around the age of 24-25.

Tatum is one game in to his 3rd season and is 21 years old.  It's beyond silly to write off his potential at this point. 

You also need to understand that pretty much all of those guys I just listed (the guys who put up big numbers immediately) are guys who entered the league as top prospects on lottery teams, and were given the keys to their franchises from day one.  Duncan, Kyie, Lebron and Durant were all made the centerpiece of their teams the instant they arrived in the league.  Lillard more or less was as well, although to a lesser degree because of LMA.

Tatum came in to the league at 19 years of age and was drafted directly to a high seeded playoff team where from day one he has had expectations to mature extremely quickly playing for a team that expects wins.  That's a very different situation to those where kids are drafted to garbage teams that aren't expected to win, and they are given the green light to dominate the ball and put up big stats to their hearts content without having to worry about pressure or criticism.

People need to calm the hell down and realise we are talking about a kid who, as a 19 year old rookie, carried his team to the Eastern Conference finals where he eventually lost (barely) in 7 games against a team led by arguably the best player in the world.   Make a list of rookies who can make that same claim - I'd imagine you would struggle to think of a handful of players in the history of the NBA that could.

All of last season Tatum was playing on a dysfunctional team behind a ball dominant Kyrie who showed zero leadership, and this season he has played ONE GAME. 

People here are just ridiculous.

[ImShakHeIsShaq]

Yeah, I know, he’s 21.  But I’ve seen near zero progress in his game entering his third year.  He’s talented, sure.  But he’s not super talented.  His fade-aways are really getting old.  His overall decision making is blah. 

He’s no longer a sure fire future all star, never mind a top 10 player in the league.

Am I overreacting?  Perhaps.  But bonafide stars make bigger leaps by now.  He hasn’t made one, and frankly, he’s getting to be frustrating to watch.

I couldn't disagree more.

Jimmy Butler didn't break out until his 4th year, age 25.
Gordon Hayward ddint break out until his 5th season, age 24.
Paul George didn't break out until his 4th season, age 23
Klay Thompson didnt break out until his 4th season, age 24
Steph Curry didnt break out until his 4th season, age 24.
Giannis didnt break out until his 4th season, age 22.

There are rare examples of truly elite franchise players who come in to the NBA and put up All-Star numbers wihtin their first year or two.  Guys like Duncan, Lillard, Kyrie, Lebron, Durant, etc.  It happens, but not that often.

The majority of star players don't truly break out and show their real potential until they hit aound their 4th or 5th season, usually around the age of 24-25.

Tatum is one game in to his 3rd season and is 21 years old.  It's beyond silly to write off his potential at this point. 

You also need to understand that pretty much all of those guys I just listed (the guys who put up big numbers immediately) are guys who entered the league as top prospects on lottery teams, and were given the keys to their franchises from day one.  Duncan, Kyie, Lebron and Durant were all made the centerpiece of their teams the instant they arrived in the league.  Lillard more or less was as well, although to a lesser degree because of LMA.

Tatum came in to the league at 19 years of age and was drafted directly to a high seeded playoff team where from day one he has had expectations to mature extremely quickly playing for a team that expects wins.  That's a very different situation to those where kids are drafted to garbage teams that aren't expected to win, and they are given the green light to dominate the ball and put up big stats to their hearts content without having to worry about pressure or criticism.

People need to calm the hell down and realise we are talking about a kid who, as a 19 year old rookie, carried his team to the Eastern Conference finals where he eventually lost (barely) in 7 games against a team led by arguably the best player in the world.   Make a list of rookies who can make that same claim - I'd imagine you would struggle to think of a handful of players in the history of the NBA that could.

All of last season Tatum was playing on a dysfunctional team behind a ball dominant Kyrie who showed zero leadership, and this season he has played ONE GAME. 

People here are just ridiculous.

I agree with most of this but carrying the team is false.

[Somebody]

Yeah, I know, he’s 21.  But I’ve seen near zero progress in his game entering his third year.  He’s talented, sure.  But he’s not super talented.  His fade-aways are really getting old.  His overall decision making is blah. 

He’s no longer a sure fire future all star, never mind a top 10 player in the league.

Am I overreacting?  Perhaps.  But bonafide stars make bigger leaps by now.  He hasn’t made one, and frankly, he’s getting to be frustrating to watch.

I couldn't disagree more.

Jimmy Butler didn't break out until his 4th year, age 25.
Gordon Hayward ddint break out until his 5th season, age 24.
Paul George didn't break out until his 4th season, age 23
Klay Thompson didnt break out until his 4th season, age 24
Steph Curry didnt break out until his 4th season, age 24.
Giannis didnt break out until his 4th season, age 22.

There are rare examples of truly elite franchise players who come in to the NBA and put up All-Star numbers wihtin their first year or two.  Guys like Duncan, Lillard, Kyrie, Lebron, Durant, etc.  It happens, but not that often.

The majority of star players don't truly break out and show their real potential until they hit aound their 4th or 5th season, usually around the age of 24-25.

Tatum is one game in to his 3rd season and is 21 years old.  It's beyond silly to write off his potential at this point. 

You also need to understand that pretty much all of those guys I just listed (the guys who put up big numbers immediately) are guys who entered the league as top prospects on lottery teams, and were given the keys to their franchises from day one.  Duncan, Kyie, Lebron and Durant were all made the centerpiece of their teams the instant they arrived in the league.  Lillard more or less was as well, although to a lesser degree because of LMA.

Tatum came in to the league at 19 years of age and was drafted directly to a high seeded playoff team where from day one he has had expectations to mature extremely quickly playing for a team that expects wins.  That's a very different situation to those where kids are drafted to garbage teams that aren't expected to win, and they are given the green light to dominate the ball and put up big stats to their hearts content without having to worry about pressure or criticism.

People need to calm the hell down and realise we are talking about a kid who, as a 19 year old rookie, carried his team to the Eastern Conference finals where he eventually lost (barely) in 7 games against a team led by arguably the best player in the world.   Make a list of rookies who can make that same claim - I'd imagine you would struggle to think of a handful of players in the history of the NBA that could.

All of last season Tatum was playing on a dysfunctional team behind a ball dominant Kyrie who showed zero leadership, and this season he has played ONE GAME. 

People here are just ridiculous.

I agree with most of this but carrying the team is false.

He lost me when he brought up Kyrie and Lillard (although to be fair Lillard did have a weak MVP peak) as elite franchise players. Elite franchise players are superstars who either had massive peaks or an onslaught of MVP calibre seasons during their career, which neither of Kyrie and Lillard can claim to have.

[ozgod]

I don't want him feeling like he's the only guy who can score and jacking up ill advised shots when there are better shots for other people.

I don't understand this at all (less this specific comment but common feeling among many here). The starting lineup has 5 guys who all scoring threats. Tatum is not an island yet he continues to play like he is. It is what it is - selfishness.

Nor is there any pressure on Tatum to be "the man". Kemba is "the man". Then you have shared responsibility between Hayward, Tatum and Jaylen.

Tatum hasn't been put up on some pedestal. He has been put in a strong position where there is a shared load and he can continue to grow gradually.

It is Tatum himself who keeps putting himself up on a pedestal. Keeps trying to "the man". It is him. His selfishness. His unwillingness to share the stage with his teammates. His unwillingness to wait until he develops his game more and becomes a more well-rounded offensive player. His demand that he be a 20ppg scorer.

As you mention, he's the one putting the pressure on himself. He's the one that feels like he has to score. He's been anointed a future All Star by people like Kyrie, KD and others in the league as well as the media. The main media narrative regarding him over the summer was that with Kyrie and Al leaving he was going to be The Man after his "regression" last season (which wasn't really a regression, it was just not as big a jump as the media and fans). Undoubtedly he feels the need to live up to those expectations. I doubt there's anyone in the Celtics organization telling him he has to be the No1 option and that he's the only guy who can score. I mentioned in the game thread when Ogaju asked me my opinion on Brad's "pecking order":

I don't think Brad really has a pecking order given the talent he (think he) has on the roster. With IT it was IT > everyone else because other than Avery everyone else was workmanlike. With the team of the last few years, with JB, JT, Gordon, Kyrie last year and now Kemba, I think he's adopting an egalitarian system where if you have an open shot or a good look you take it. I feel like most of the shots G took tonight were good looks, he passed some up in the first half but was more aggressive in the 2nd. Kemba had some good looks, just missed, i think it will take him some games to get used to being part of an ensemble offense rather than being the centerpiece. The offense he played in in Charlotte was a lot more iso heavy than the one Brad wants. JB couldn't get any rhythm because of the fouls and when he came back he looked like he was pressing and took a couple of bad (panic) threes.

It was really Tatum who shot us out of the lead in the first half, he took some bad shot options and the good ones that he took where he tried to be aggressive and drive to the rim he missed. He just made too many mistakes and I think it was coming from being too eager to impress. He made some really difficult shots but took a lot of difficult ones and missed some easy ones. He's the guy that I think Brad should really be talking to about shot selection and not pressing.

https://forum.celticsstrong.com/index.php?topic=101441.840

Because Brad runs an egalitarian "whoever feels like they have the best shot, should go and take it" mentality, Tatum takes advantage of it and fires away. He just needs to realize that even with Kyrie and Al gone there's still multiple All Stars around him and other good players. Otherwise he will end up being a Kobe type "score 25 points by taking 30 shots" type player which we don't really want. If that's the case the best place for him is in a Edited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline.ty team where he's the No1, 2 and 3 options.

[Csfan1984]

I feel like this is his first year. All the growing pains of leading a team and being a focal point of offense and the opposing team's defense is a whole new learning experience. Willing to give him till All-star break to adjust. I hope he can get quicker with his play.

BS needs to stick to a short rotation for chemistry. Knowing your teammates does wonders for passing and playing off the ball. Something that can help Tatum in his first year leading the team.

[gpap]

I think one of the issues from last season still exists, where we have a log-jam of small forwards that all need the ball in their hands to be successful. That doesn't help

[dannyboy35]

I feel like this is his first year. All the growing pains of leading a team and being a focal point of offense and the opposing team's defense is a whole new learning experience. Willing to give him till All-star break to adjust. I hope he can get quicker with his play.

BS needs to stick to a short rotation for chemistry. Knowing your teammates does wonders for passing and playing off the ball. Something that can help Tatum in his first year leading the team.

  I feel like this is the problem for Tatum. He SHOULDN’T be the focal point. He’s the third best player on the team and should be less featured. Enough with these isolations from outside the arc. I think the actors souls be helping him and themselves by eliminating these from the offense.

[Who]

I think one of the issues from last season still exists, where we have a log-jam of small forwards that all need the ball in their hands to be successful. That doesn't help

This year's team is frustratingly similar to last year's squad only without Al Horford's two way brilliance as offensive facilitator and defensive anchor to help smooth over the cracks.

[Green-18]

The concerns about Tatum are warranted, but let's see how things play out over the first few weeks of the season.  Philly has the ideal combination of length, size, and athleticism to be the best defensive team in the NBA.  They're going to be difficult to score against, especially when their entire team is committed to defending at a high level.

I didn't view opening night as selfishness from Tatum, as I have zero doubt the coaching staff is asking him to attack the hoop and let it fly from three.  He's definitely making an effort to get away from the ISO midrange jumpers.  The issue with Tatum is that he's still struggling to process the game in real time, leading to tunnel vision or complete deference.  This is where it becomes Brad's job to utilize film sessions to help Tatum with his decision making. 

Hopefully Tatum can put together a few solid performances before we play Milwaukee on Wednesday.  Confidence is everything for scorers.     

[tonydelk]

The concerns about Tatum are warranted, but let's see how things play out over the first few weeks of the season.  Philly has the ideal combination of length, size, and athleticism to be the best defensive team in the NBA.  They're going to be difficult to score against, especially when their entire team is committed to defending at a high level.

I didn't view opening night as selfishness from Tatum, as I have zero doubt the coaching staff is asking him to attack the hoop and let it fly from three.  He's definitely making an effort to get away from the ISO midrange jumpers.  The issue with Tatum is that he's still struggling to process the game in real time, leading to tunnel vision or complete deference.  This is where it becomes Brad's job to utilize film sessions to help Tatum with his decision making. 

Hopefully Tatum can put together a few solid performances before we play Milwaukee on Wednesday.  Confidence is everything for scorers.     

TP Good Post.  Tatum has to become a better playmaker.  When he attacks the hoop he needs to find the open man.  Anytime a player attacks a hoop the defense collapses and there has to be someone open.  The other issue is most people can't stop Tatum when he gets so deep into the paint that he has to shoot it because it's such a high percentage shot.  I do not blame Brad I blame Tatum.  He would have had a lot more experience in playmaking if he didn't settle so much for those contested midrange jumpers last year.  Jaylen seems to be getting better in the decision making area because he's been practicing it.  It seems Jason has been practicing attacking but not passing out of a drive.  He's going to get a lot better and once that portion of his game catches up he's going to be dominant.  You can tell he's stronger this year.  One more year of developing his strength and decision making look out.  I was very happy with how he played against one of the longest and best defensive teams in the NBA.  The C's got a ton of open looks against Philly and just didn't make them.  I thought they played great outside of missing so many open shots.

[Csfan1984]

I feel like this is his first year. All the growing pains of leading a team and being a focal point of offense and the opposing team's defense is a whole new learning experience. Willing to give him till All-star break to adjust. I hope he can get quicker with his play.

BS needs to stick to a short rotation for chemistry. Knowing your teammates does wonders for passing and playing off the ball. Something that can help Tatum in his first year leading the team.

  I feel like this is the problem for Tatum. He SHOULDN’T be the focal point. He’s the third best player on the team and should be less featured. Enough with these isolations from outside the arc. I think the actors souls be helping him and themselves by eliminating these from the offense.

The iso isn't bad if its against a guy you can beat and you can effectively pass when help closes in. But I understand what you mean. I kind of like what he did in spots as the focal point his rookie year. If you remember he played a different style were he started the offensive set and got free into spots where he would then catch and shoot or drive. If they use him like that he could maybe become the elite efficient player he was that year.

[GRADYCOLNON]

It's just realizing that these holes in his game haven't been sealed up.  The bobbling of the ball on drives, the unnecessary finger rolls on layups that miss off the backboard.  The slowing down offensive sets, not looking to make plays for others, forcing up shots is hard to understand especially when he is expecting to get paid a boatload of money and be the future of this team.

One game! One game! All this nonsense over one game. This is going to be a long season. 

Hiding behind one game isn't exactly a good excuse when he had all of last season and a summer to address them.  So if it can't be addressed now, when is it appropriate to discuss an inconvenient truth? Because every time people make this excuse somehow the line keeps getting kicked down the road until an entire season has passed.  It's in this constant denial that makes things intolerably long. Where the only solace is accepting we were wrong.  And if that is wrong in it of itself, then we will be full of renewed appreciation of success while avoiding being trampled by those unfulfilled hopes held firm by the denial.

It's not denial, it's patience but it seems some too eager to cut loose a young player if they're not performing to their expectations. Last season was rather rocky for the whole team. It's another new team and this time Tatum is likely to shoulder more of the scoring burden. I do wonder when people will learn patience because it seems that sooner or later people will demand to trade him.

I'm not suggesting cutting Tatum loose.  This is about tamping down our expectations until there is evidence to suggest our prior loftier expectations.  One can be patient while modulating healthier expectations based on current evidence.  But, ignoring general calls and questions of a player by flagging impatience of fans isn't direct evidence against the claims, it is just buying time in hopes that he improves enough over this indefinite period of time to justify previous projections as always being the truth. 

[Spicoli]

The thing about Tatum that irks me is he cannot make layups to save his life! Somebody is going to come in and quote his field goal percentage at the rim but i know what i see. He misses more point blank/wide open layups than just about anyone i've ever seen. He has no touch going to the hoop. Siakam on the other hand, rarely misses layups, even the contested ones. If Tatum is still missing point blank layups in year 3 that is a cause for concern in my eyes, because those are the easiest points you're going to get other than free throws.

Tatum is the king of million dollar move 10 cent finish. If he wants to make a leap, he needs to become a better finisher at the rim period.