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Re: NBA 2019-2020 season thread
« Reply #1590 on: January 23, 2020, 05:01:20 PM »

Offline Rondo9

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I thought Trae was right to call out the Hawks organization. Players need to speak up when their organization is crapping their bed. Put pressure on the organization to right the ship.

There is a time and place for such actions -- there are times when it is wrong to do so but there are also times when it is right -- and I think Trae was right in this instance to call out his organization.

I liked it. Good leadership.

Try to telling that to the Luka fans on Celticsblog. It's like they want Trae to fail so they can further prop up Luka. I think it's the right call as well, I don't want Trae to be like Garnett, Davis and Kemba: Wasting their primes on bad teams.

Re: NBA 2019-2020 season thread
« Reply #1591 on: January 23, 2020, 05:15:23 PM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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I thought Trae was right to call out the Hawks organization. Players need to speak up when their organization is crapping their bed. Put pressure on the organization to right the ship.

There is a time and place for such actions -- there are times when it is wrong to do so but there are also times when it is right -- and I think Trae was right in this instance to call out his organization.

I liked it. Good leadership.

Try to telling that to the Luka fans on Celticsblog. It's like they want Trae to fail so they can further prop up Luka. I think it's the right call as well, I don't want Trae to be like Garnett, Davis and Kemba: Wasting their primes on bad teams.

I love Trae Young. I believe he has a bright future in this league and could very well be a HOFer one day.

I believe he will be a corner stone of successful playoff teams in ATL.

With that being said - do you (or anyone else here) believe DAL would have the same record (or success) with Trae and Luka switching spots?

Change the past and let ATL keep Luka. Let DAL select Trae.

Where do you / Celticsstrong - believe DAL / ATL would be at if these two were selected differently?

Would ATL be better with Luka?

Maybe I worded this confusingly....maybe I'm giving a wrong scenario. I'm just a fan at the end of the day.

But IMHO I truly believe that Luka Doncic makes his team(s) better. I truly believe that you could place Luka on ANY bad team right now....NY, PHX, whatever - and he makes them better IMMEDIATELY.

For some reason I simply don't get that with Trae - and I believe he's extremely talented. Maybe he could grow into that....maybe I'm judging him too soon. Maybe I'm not judging the talent around him in ATL.

I simply believe Luka is better and makes his TEAM better.....would make ANY team better....at least right now.

Not saying that Trae could not BECOME that good....but I just don't see it yet. Certainly don't see it now.
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Re: NBA 2019-2020 season thread
« Reply #1592 on: January 23, 2020, 08:17:53 PM »

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Zach Lowe just had Young in over Tatum on his all-star team. I"m so very mad about him getting in over Tatum/Brown even when it hasn't happened yet. (and might not happen given coaches vote reserves)

I'd be somewhat less mad about Beal, and even more mad about Lavine.  >:( >:( >:(

Because when you can get the offensive engine of the second worst offense in the league in the all-star game you have to do it.  >:( >:( >:(
Hard to be mad when Young is so statistically brilliant.  I mean 29.2 p, 8.6 a, 4.7 r, 1.2 s with a TS% of 59.4.  Obviously a sieve on defense, but offense is just so much more important and Young is absolutely a brilliant offensive player.
I really don't understand this take when you've been pumping up Tatum due to his excellence in the +/- family of metrics, they mostly agree that offence isn't that much more valuable than defence (it's more valuable than defence, but the gap is like 6 points to 5 according to RAPM), ntm that a big argument for Tatum being an All-Star calibre wing this season is his incredible defensive +/- stats in a free safety role.

But yes I think Young is good enough to make the All-Star team, he's one of the best non MVP PGs on offence right now imo (strong box and non-box stats to go along with positive stuff from the eye test) and that helps him grade out as an All-Star (albeit borderline due to how much his defence sucks) in my eyes.
Offense is far more important than defense.  I'd say at least 60/40 if not more like 70/30.  It is why guys like Curry, Harden, Irving, IT4 (in Boston), etc. can be MVP caliber players despite being atrocious on defense.  That isn't to say defense isn't important, but I'm taking the offensive beast 10 out of 10 times over the defensive beast (assuming near equal talent levels and no clearly better roster fit).
The spread is definitely around 60/40 at best, there's no historical evidence of the spread being as extreme as 70/30 unless you only gawk at box scores. Out of the four you mentioned, only Harden fits your criteria (I'm pretty baffled at you constantly railing on Curry's defence tbh, your beloved Magic Johnson would be an ice cream cone if Curry was atrocious on defence), so I don't see many cases of an MVP calibre player being garbage defensively.

And I'd do the same if offence was just as portable as defence, your assumption ignores the reality of both skills (defence fits on any kind of team while offence really doesn't). But yes offence is more valuable than defence, the gap is just not as much as you'd like to believe.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2020, 04:21:29 AM by Somebody »
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Re: NBA 2019-2020 season thread
« Reply #1593 on: January 23, 2020, 08:47:05 PM »

Offline moiso

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I thought Trae was right to call out the Hawks organization. Players need to speak up when their organization is crapping their bed. Put pressure on the organization to right the ship.

There is a time and place for such actions -- there are times when it is wrong to do so but there are also times when it is right -- and I think Trae was right in this instance to call out his organization.

I liked it. Good leadership.

Try to telling that to the Luka fans on Celticsblog. It's like they want Trae to fail so they can further prop up Luka. I think it's the right call as well, I don't want Trae to be like Garnett, Davis and Kemba: Wasting their primes on bad teams.

I love Trae Young. I believe he has a bright future in this league and could very well be a HOFer one day.

I believe he will be a corner stone of successful playoff teams in ATL.

With that being said - do you (or anyone else here) believe DAL would have the same record (or success) with Trae and Luka switching spots?

Change the past and let ATL keep Luka. Let DAL select Trae.

Where do you / Celticsstrong - believe DAL / ATL would be at if these two were selected differently?

Would ATL be better with Luka?

Maybe I worded this confusingly....maybe I'm giving a wrong scenario. I'm just a fan at the end of the day.

But IMHO I truly believe that Luka Doncic makes his team(s) better. I truly believe that you could place Luka on ANY bad team right now....NY, PHX, whatever - and he makes them better IMMEDIATELY.

For some reason I simply don't get that with Trae - and I believe he's extremely talented. Maybe he could grow into that....maybe I'm judging him too soon. Maybe I'm not judging the talent around him in ATL.

I simply believe Luka is better and makes his TEAM better.....would make ANY team better....at least right now.

Not saying that Trae could not BECOME that good....but I just don't see it yet. Certainly don't see it now.
Totally agree about Luka and Tre.  Tre has some amazing skills and can put up incredible numbers.  He's awesome to watch.  But Luka changes the whole complexion of the game every moment he is on the court.  I don't feel the same thing with Tre even when he's playing great.  But that's to be expected since Luka is heading toward being one of the GOATs.

Re: NBA 2019-2020 season thread
« Reply #1594 on: January 23, 2020, 08:55:08 PM »

Offline RockinRyA

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 :(
I thought Trae was right to call out the Hawks organization. Players need to speak up when their organization is crapping their bed. Put pressure on the organization to right the ship.

There is a time and place for such actions -- there are times when it is wrong to do so but there are also times when it is right -- and I think Trae was right in this instance to call out his organization.

I liked it. Good leadership.

Try to telling that to the Luka fans on Celticsblog. It's like they want Trae to fail so they can further prop up Luka. I think it's the right call as well, I don't want Trae to be like Garnett, Davis and Kemba: Wasting their primes on bad teams.

I love Trae Young. I believe he has a bright future in this league and could very well be a HOFer one day.

I believe he will be a corner stone of successful playoff teams in ATL.

With that being said - do you (or anyone else here) believe DAL would have the same record (or success) with Trae and Luka switching spots?

Change the past and let ATL keep Luka. Let DAL select Trae.

Where do you / Celticsstrong - believe DAL / ATL would be at if these two were selected differently?

Would ATL be better with Luka?

Maybe I worded this confusingly....maybe I'm giving a wrong scenario. I'm just a fan at the end of the day.

But IMHO I truly believe that Luka Doncic makes his team(s) better. I truly believe that you could place Luka on ANY bad team right now....NY, PHX, whatever - and he makes them better IMMEDIATELY.

For some reason I simply don't get that with Trae - and I believe he's extremely talented. Maybe he could grow into that....maybe I'm judging him too soon. Maybe I'm not judging the talent around him in ATL.

I simply believe Luka is better and makes his TEAM better.....would make ANY team better....at least right now.

Not saying that Trae could not BECOME that good....but I just don't see it yet. Certainly don't see it now.
Totally agree about Luka and Tre.  Tre has some amazing skills and can put up incredible numbers.  He's awesome to watch.  But Luka changes the whole complexion of the game every moment he is on the court.  I don't feel the same thing with Tre even when he's playing great.  But that's to be expected since Luka is heading toward being one of the GOATs.

Im not sure about the GOAT thing but Luka is absolutely a gamechanger and possibly a generational talent. I dont aee those in Trae, who can be a multiple all-star.

Re: NBA 2019-2020 season thread
« Reply #1595 on: January 23, 2020, 09:56:52 PM »

Offline Redz

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Man, that Brooklyn court is hard to look at.
Yup

Re: NBA 2019-2020 season thread
« Reply #1596 on: January 24, 2020, 03:30:43 AM »

Offline gouki88

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Man, that Brooklyn court is hard to look at.
Feel the same way about some of their uniforms
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Re: NBA 2019-2020 season thread
« Reply #1597 on: January 24, 2020, 04:14:08 AM »

Offline Androslav

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Man, that Brooklyn court is hard to look at.
Feel the same way about some of their uniforms
It kind of looks like you watch a black/white picture.
It is strange no doubt, but it's original nevertheless.
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Re: NBA 2019-2020 season thread
« Reply #1598 on: January 24, 2020, 04:18:26 AM »

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Man, that Brooklyn court is hard to look at.
Feel the same way about some of their uniforms
It kind of looks like you watch a black/white picture.
It is strange no doubt, but it's original nevertheless.
I thought it looked like something straight out of a black and white cartoon tbh.
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Re: NBA 2019-2020 season thread
« Reply #1599 on: January 24, 2020, 05:36:38 AM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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Man, that Brooklyn court is hard to look at.
Feel the same way about some of their uniforms
It kind of looks like you watch a black/white picture.
It is strange no doubt, but it's original nevertheless.
I thought it looked like something straight out of a black and white cartoon tbh.



And next season will be cartoonish for BKN if Durant and Kyrie don't mesh well....and even if they do they are certainly going to need to make some changes there.
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Re: NBA 2019-2020 season thread
« Reply #1600 on: January 24, 2020, 06:42:56 AM »

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Man, that Brooklyn court is hard to look at.
I find it the same. I can't watch Brooklyn home games.

Don't even try anymore. Not since their first season there.

Re: NBA 2019-2020 season thread
« Reply #1601 on: January 24, 2020, 06:47:24 AM »

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With that being said - do you (or anyone else here) believe DAL would have the same record (or success) with Trae and Luka switching spots?

Change the past and let ATL keep Luka. Let DAL select Trae.

Where do you / Celticsstrong - believe DAL / ATL would be at if these two were selected differently?

Would ATL be better with Luka?

Atlanta would certainly be a lot better and Dallas would certainly be a lot worse. Doncic is a top 2 player in the league this season next to Giannis. Trae Young is a top 25 player.

Huge difference between an MVP candidate and an All-Star. Like the difference between Giannis (the other top 2 player in the league) and Middleton or Harden and Donovan Mitchell. Imagine how much Houston would drop off if those two swapped places. And how much better Utah would become.

Trae is awesome in his own right but Luka is on a whole different level than him.

Re: NBA 2019-2020 season thread
« Reply #1602 on: January 24, 2020, 09:02:12 AM »

Offline Moranis

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Zach Lowe just had Young in over Tatum on his all-star team. I"m so very mad about him getting in over Tatum/Brown even when it hasn't happened yet. (and might not happen given coaches vote reserves)

I'd be somewhat less mad about Beal, and even more mad about Lavine.  >:( >:( >:(

Because when you can get the offensive engine of the second worst offense in the league in the all-star game you have to do it.  >:( >:( >:(
Hard to be mad when Young is so statistically brilliant.  I mean 29.2 p, 8.6 a, 4.7 r, 1.2 s with a TS% of 59.4.  Obviously a sieve on defense, but offense is just so much more important and Young is absolutely a brilliant offensive player.
I really don't understand this take when you've been pumping up Tatum due to his excellence in the +/- family of metrics, they mostly agree that offence isn't that much more valuable than defence (it's more valuable than defence, but the gap is like 6 points to 5 according to RAPM), ntm that a big argument for Tatum being an All-Star calibre wing this season is his incredible defensive +/- stats in a free safety role.

But yes I think Young is good enough to make the All-Star team, he's one of the best non MVP PGs on offence right now imo (strong box and non-box stats to go along with positive stuff from the eye test) and that helps him grade out as an All-Star (albeit borderline due to how much his defence sucks) in my eyes.
Offense is far more important than defense.  I'd say at least 60/40 if not more like 70/30.  It is why guys like Curry, Harden, Irving, IT4 (in Boston), etc. can be MVP caliber players despite being atrocious on defense.  That isn't to say defense isn't important, but I'm taking the offensive beast 10 out of 10 times over the defensive beast (assuming near equal talent levels and no clearly better roster fit).
The spread is definitely around 60/40 at best, there's no historical evidence of the spread being as extreme as 70/30 unless you only gawk at box scores. Out of the four you mentioned, only Harden fits your criteria (I'm pretty baffled at you constantly railing on Curry's defence tbh, your beloved Magic Johnson would be an ice cream cone if Curry was atrocious on defence), so I don't see many cases of an MVP calibre player being garbage defensively.

And I'd do the same if offence was just as portable as defence, your assumption ignores the reality of both skills (defence fits on any kind of team while offence really doesn't). But yes offence is more valuable than defence, the gap is just not as much as you'd like to believe.
The following people have won MVP's in the last 20 years: Harden, Westbrook, Curry x2, Rose, Dirk, Nash x2, Iverson. Those guys all have varying degrees of defensive prowess (or lack thereof), but they are all significantly better offensive players then they were defensive players.  Sure guys like Antetokounmpo, Durant, James, Bryant, Garnett, Duncan, and O'Neal are elite level defenders, but they were also as good or better offensively. 

So when I say offense is significantly more important to defense, that is what I'm talking about.  The great defenders, like Rudy Gobert, while they compete and win DPOY awards don't get anywhere near the MVP award because they offensively are poor and offense matters.

This is also true if you look at the 3 best players on NBA champions.  They by and large have one of the uber players at the top (i.e. Lebron, Durant, Duncan, Bryant, etc.), but the other 2 top players are almost always more offensively oriented players.  The last time a NBA champion had an elite defensive player in their top 3 (that wasn't also elite offensively) win a NBA title was the first Warriors (Green who was an excellent secondary offensive player with his passing) and their best player Curry who obviously is not one of those uber elite offensive and defensive players (Green was 4th best on the 2 most recent Warriors titles).  Before the Warriors the last time a team had one of those defensive oriented players in their top 3 was Tyson Chandler on the Mavs and before that was the Pistons with Ben Wallace (who may have in fact been their best player and are clearly an exception to all forms of title teams). 

So when I say things like offense is far more important to winning than defense, I'm just going off of the traditional mold of who wins NBA championship and who wins the MVP.  Those 2 things tell you offense matters far more than defense.  The best teams and the best players are both elite on offense and defense, but if you could only have one, take offense because at the end of the day you win when you score more than the other team and it is easier to score than to stop someone else from scoring. 
« Last Edit: January 24, 2020, 10:52:58 AM by Moranis »
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Re: NBA 2019-2020 season thread
« Reply #1603 on: January 24, 2020, 02:32:56 PM »

Offline Briantir

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With that being said - do you (or anyone else here) believe DAL would have the same record (or success) with Trae and Luka switching spots?

Change the past and let ATL keep Luka. Let DAL select Trae.

Where do you / Celticsstrong - believe DAL / ATL would be at if these two were selected differently?

Would ATL be better with Luka?

Atlanta would certainly be a lot better and Dallas would certainly be a lot worse. Doncic is a top 2 player in the league this season next to Giannis. Trae Young is a top 25 player.

Huge difference between an MVP candidate and an All-Star. Like the difference between Giannis (the other top 2 player in the league) and Middleton or Harden and Donovan Mitchell. Imagine how much Houston would drop off if those two swapped places. And how much better Utah would become.

Trae is awesome in his own right but Luka is on a whole different level than him.

Luka is not a top 2 player, regular season is just practice let's see him play at an elite level when defenses are trapping him he's getting doubled coaches actually game plan against him...

Playoffs is when u see whose got it and who doesn't.

Re: NBA 2019-2020 season thread
« Reply #1604 on: January 24, 2020, 03:35:24 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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With that being said - do you (or anyone else here) believe DAL would have the same record (or success) with Trae and Luka switching spots?

Change the past and let ATL keep Luka. Let DAL select Trae.

Where do you / Celticsstrong - believe DAL / ATL would be at if these two were selected differently?

Would ATL be better with Luka?

Atlanta would certainly be a lot better and Dallas would certainly be a lot worse. Doncic is a top 2 player in the league this season next to Giannis. Trae Young is a top 25 player.

Huge difference between an MVP candidate and an All-Star. Like the difference between Giannis (the other top 2 player in the league) and Middleton or Harden and Donovan Mitchell. Imagine how much Houston would drop off if those two swapped places. And how much better Utah would become.

Trae is awesome in his own right but Luka is on a whole different level than him.

Luka is not a top 2 player, regular season is just practice let's see him play at an elite level when defenses are trapping him he's getting doubled coaches actually game plan against him...

Playoffs is when u see whose got it and who doesn't.
Do you think teams haven't trapped and doubled him?