Poll

Given what each would cost, and their respective ages/contracts, who would you want?

Andre Drummond
5 (8.8%)
Myles Turner
12 (21.1%)
Clint Capela
3 (5.3%)
Marc Gasol
0 (0%)
Hassan Whiteside
1 (1.8%)
Jusuf Nurkic
3 (5.3%)
Cody Zeller
2 (3.5%)
Derrick Favors
2 (3.5%)
Steven Adams
10 (17.5%)
A Young Guy
0 (0%)
Dwayne Dedmon
3 (5.3%)
Ehhh, none  are worth what it would cost
16 (28.1%)

Total Members Voted: 57

Author Topic: Big Man Options  (Read 11201 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: Big Man Options
« Reply #150 on: November 08, 2019, 11:19:29 AM »

Offline DefenseWinsChamps

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3426
  • Tommy Points: 572
As I argued before, there is a potential trade out there. I wouldn't do it, but when the restriction ends, this could be done:

Boston Receives: Bam
Miami Receives: Brown, Mavs Trade Exception
Mavs Receive: Meyers Leonard, 2nd from Boston or Miami

A three team trade is where it becomes possible, where the team who receives Brown sends a medium size contract to another team that has a trade exception sizable enough to receive it.

There aren't many of those out there, but it is possible.

Still, I want to keep Brown. He's special.
Most talent in the league. We don't want or need AD.

Re: Big Man Options
« Reply #151 on: November 08, 2019, 11:20:02 AM »

Offline DefenseWinsChamps

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3426
  • Tommy Points: 572
What if our defensive big man in the post is ... Marcus Smart?

In an admittedly small sample size so far this season. Smart ranks 5th as a postup defender.

I'm not saying that is necessarily the long-term solution. Still, Smart's abilities on Paul Milsap, Kevin Love, Giannis, and others in the post throughout the years might indicate he could do it in key moments or stretches in the playoffs.

Playing Joel Embiid might be a problem, but that's a problem for anyone.

No doubt Smart can defend bigs, especially in the regular season.

But it's different in the playoffs.

What if the Celts face the Sixers in the playoffs?

Can Smart do it in a 7-game series?

He's done it in the playoffs. For example: Milsap.
Most talent in the league. We don't want or need AD.

Re: Big Man Options
« Reply #152 on: November 08, 2019, 11:23:24 AM »

Offline Fierce1

  • NGT
  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1816
  • Tommy Points: 86
What if our defensive big man in the post is ... Marcus Smart?

In an admittedly small sample size so far this season. Smart ranks 5th as a postup defender.

I'm not saying that is necessarily the long-term solution. Still, Smart's abilities on Paul Milsap, Kevin Love, Giannis, and others in the post throughout the years might indicate he could do it in key moments or stretches in the playoffs.

Playing Joel Embiid might be a problem, but that's a problem for anyone.

No doubt Smart can defend bigs, especially in the regular season.

But it's different in the playoffs.

What if the Celts face the Sixers in the playoffs?

Can Smart do it in a 7-game series?

He's done it in the playoffs. For example: Milsap.

Millsap is not even 6-8.

No doubt Smart can cover a 6-7 PF like Millsap.

Re: Big Man Options
« Reply #153 on: November 08, 2019, 11:24:56 AM »

Offline Fierce1

  • NGT
  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1816
  • Tommy Points: 86
As I argued before, there is a potential trade out there. I wouldn't do it, but when the restriction ends, this could be done:

Boston Receives: Bam
Miami Receives: Brown, Mavs Trade Exception
Mavs Receive: Meyers Leonard, 2nd from Boston or Miami

A three team trade is where it becomes possible, where the team who receives Brown sends a medium size contract to another team that has a trade exception sizable enough to receive it.

There aren't many of those out there, but it is possible.

Still, I want to keep Brown. He's special.

Agree.

I also don't think the Celts will be moving Brown after giving him that extension.

But your trade proposal works.
Even the ESPN trade machine says Jaylen can be traded.

Re: Big Man Options
« Reply #154 on: November 08, 2019, 11:35:40 AM »

Offline nickagneta

  • Global Moderator
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 38670
  • Tommy Points: 6253
I also found an article that says players like Brown and Sabonis, who extended their rookie scale contracts, can be traded.

It's rare, but technically possible.

Here:
https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2018/10/hoops-rumors-glossary-poison-pill-provision.html

Larry Coon also explained PPPs, like what Brown and Sabonis have can be traded.

Here:
http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q91

91. What is the Poison Pill Provision?
"Poison Pill" isn't a defined term in the CBA, but there are a couple situations that are commonly referred to as a poison pill -- meaning a contract clause that creates a potential difficulty because the cap accounting can vary from the norm.

The first is when a team extends a first round draft pick's rookie scale contract (see question number 58) and then trades the player between the date the extension is signed and the date it takes effect. When this happens, the player's trade value for the receiving team is the average of the salaries in the last year of the rookie scale contract and each year of the extension. The sending team uses the player's actual salary when calculating their total outgoing salary, and uses the current-year maximum salary in place of the (unknown) maximum salary for a future season, if necessary.

All this is over ridden by this:

Quote
101. When can't a player be traded? Can players be given "no-trade" clauses in their contracts?

A "no-trade" clause prevents the team from trading the player without the player's consent. A no-trade clause can be negotiated into a new contract1 if the player has been in the NBA for at least eight seasons, and has played for the team with which he is signing for at least four seasons2. They don't have to be the four most recent seasons -- for example, Horace Grant received a no-trade clause from Orlando when he signed with them in 2001. He had played for Orlando for the requisite four seasons, but had played for Seattle and Los Angeles in the interim. Few players actually have one of these negotiated no-trade clauses -- currently only Carmelo Anthony, LeBron James and Dirk Nowitzki have them.

If a player with a negotiated no-trade clause consents to a trade and is traded, his no-trade clause remains in effect with his new team.

There are two additional circumstances in which a trade requires the player's consent:

When the player is playing under a one-year contract (excluding any option year) and will have Larry Bird or Early Bird rights at the end of the season. This includes first round draft picks following their fourth (option) season, who accept their team's qualifying offer for their fifth season. When the player consents to such a trade, his Larry Bird/Early Bird rights are not traded with him, and instead becomes a Non-Bird free agent3. The player's consent is also required for any subsequent trades that season.

For one year after exercising the right of first refusal to keep a restricted free agent. The player must consent to a trade to any team, although he cannot be traded to the team that signed him to the offer sheet.

In addition, teams cannot trade players under the following circumstances:

For two months after receiving the player in trade, if the trade aggregates the player's salary with the salaries of other players. However, the team is free to trade the player immediately, either by himself or without aggregating his salary with other salaries. This restriction applies only to players who were acquired using an exception (and not cap room). (Also see question number 90.)

When the trade deadline has passed. Teams are free to make trades again once their season has ended4, but cannot trade players whose contracts are ending or could end due to an option or ETO.

For three months or until December 15 of that season (whichever is later) after signing a contract as a free agent or matching an offer sheet to a restricted free agent. This obviously does not apply to the trade completing a sign-and-trade transaction (see question number 92).

For three months or until December 15 of that season (whichever is later) after converting a Two-Way contract to a standard contract (see question number 83), with the three months beginning on the date the contract is converted.

For three months or until January 15 of that season (whichever is later) after re-signing a free agent with Larry Bird or Early Bird rights, if the team is over the cap, the player's new salary is above the minimum, and he receives a raise greater than 20%.

For 30 days after signing as a draft pick. This applies even for later-signed first round picks, who are signed using cap room at least three seasons after they are drafted (see question number 49).

For 30 days after signing a Two-Way contract (see question number 82).

For one year after signing a player to a Designated Veteran contract or extension (see question number 24).

For six months after signing a player to an extension that is over the limit (in terms of years, salary or raises) for an extend-and-trade transaction5 (see question number 95).

After claiming a player on waivers, for 30 days if the player was claimed during the season. If the player was claimed during the offseason, he cannot be traded until the 30th day of the following season.

A team cannot reacquire a player it traded away during the same season (a season for this purpose being defined as starting on the first day of the regular season and ending on the last day of the Finals). If the player was traded between seasons (i.e., from the first day after the Finals to the last day prior to the start of the next regular season), it cannot reacquire the player prior to the end of the next season. If he is waived by his new team, then he cannot re-sign with his original team until the one-year anniversary of the trade, or until the July 1 following the end of his contract, whichever comes first6. However, if a team trades a player's draft rights, it can reacquire the player during the same season.

A team cannot acquire players during a season when they do not have room on their 15-man roster, even if they intend to waive an incoming player immediately. For example, a team with 14 players cannot trade one player for three, while simultaneously waiving an incoming player to remain at 15 players7.

In the case of the Poison Pill Provision, those rules only apply after the player's eligibility to be traded is re-instated. For instance if Brown signed his extension say last February, at the deadline, then after 6 months, in September of this year, he could be have been traded using Poison Pill Provisions.

But Brown signed in October which means he isn't eligible to be traded until after the trade deadline this year or, in other words, after the Celtics' season ends this year.

Re: Big Man Options
« Reply #155 on: November 08, 2019, 11:58:05 AM »

Offline keevsnick

  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2530
  • Tommy Points: 246
As I argued before, there is a potential trade out there. I wouldn't do it, but when the restriction ends, this could be done:

Boston Receives: Bam
Miami Receives: Brown, Mavs Trade Exception
Mavs Receive: Meyers Leonard, 2nd from Boston or Miami

A three team trade is where it becomes possible, where the team who receives Brown sends a medium size contract to another team that has a trade exception sizable enough to receive it.

There aren't many of those out there, but it is possible.

Still, I want to keep Brown. He's special.


Ya I'd just rather have Brown than Bam, I think RW could in theory come to give you a lot of what BAM does tho maybe not this year.

Also it worth pointing out that Dallas wants to be good, I dont think they are taking on an 11.5 million dollar contract of a guy who wont play much if at all for them (Powell, KP, Kleiber). Better just to use that team building tool to get a guy who will actually help.

Re: Big Man Options
« Reply #156 on: November 08, 2019, 12:03:12 PM »

Offline keevsnick

  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2530
  • Tommy Points: 246
Also I think its safe say given how Hayward has played this year some of these options simply arent relevant anymore. You arent trading hayward for Steven Adam, Hassan Whiteside, ect given how good he's looked. Since Brown can't be traded that limits the salary range of guys you can acquire too probably high teens, and even then only if its  4/1 deal or Smart is included.

Best bet may be internal development.

Re: Big Man Options
« Reply #157 on: November 08, 2019, 12:22:31 PM »

Offline Fierce1

  • NGT
  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1816
  • Tommy Points: 86
I also found an article that says players like Brown and Sabonis, who extended their rookie scale contracts, can be traded.

It's rare, but technically possible.

Here:
https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2018/10/hoops-rumors-glossary-poison-pill-provision.html

Larry Coon also explained PPPs, like what Brown and Sabonis have can be traded.

Here:
http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q91

91. What is the Poison Pill Provision?
"Poison Pill" isn't a defined term in the CBA, but there are a couple situations that are commonly referred to as a poison pill -- meaning a contract clause that creates a potential difficulty because the cap accounting can vary from the norm.

The first is when a team extends a first round draft pick's rookie scale contract (see question number 58) and then trades the player between the date the extension is signed and the date it takes effect. When this happens, the player's trade value for the receiving team is the average of the salaries in the last year of the rookie scale contract and each year of the extension. The sending team uses the player's actual salary when calculating their total outgoing salary, and uses the current-year maximum salary in place of the (unknown) maximum salary for a future season, if necessary.

All this is over ridden by this:

Quote
101. When can't a player be traded? Can players be given "no-trade" clauses in their contracts?

A "no-trade" clause prevents the team from trading the player without the player's consent. A no-trade clause can be negotiated into a new contract1 if the player has been in the NBA for at least eight seasons, and has played for the team with which he is signing for at least four seasons2. They don't have to be the four most recent seasons -- for example, Horace Grant received a no-trade clause from Orlando when he signed with them in 2001. He had played for Orlando for the requisite four seasons, but had played for Seattle and Los Angeles in the interim. Few players actually have one of these negotiated no-trade clauses -- currently only Carmelo Anthony, LeBron James and Dirk Nowitzki have them.

If a player with a negotiated no-trade clause consents to a trade and is traded, his no-trade clause remains in effect with his new team.

There are two additional circumstances in which a trade requires the player's consent:

When the player is playing under a one-year contract (excluding any option year) and will have Larry Bird or Early Bird rights at the end of the season. This includes first round draft picks following their fourth (option) season, who accept their team's qualifying offer for their fifth season. When the player consents to such a trade, his Larry Bird/Early Bird rights are not traded with him, and instead becomes a Non-Bird free agent3. The player's consent is also required for any subsequent trades that season.

For one year after exercising the right of first refusal to keep a restricted free agent. The player must consent to a trade to any team, although he cannot be traded to the team that signed him to the offer sheet.

In addition, teams cannot trade players under the following circumstances:

For two months after receiving the player in trade, if the trade aggregates the player's salary with the salaries of other players. However, the team is free to trade the player immediately, either by himself or without aggregating his salary with other salaries. This restriction applies only to players who were acquired using an exception (and not cap room). (Also see question number 90.)

When the trade deadline has passed. Teams are free to make trades again once their season has ended4, but cannot trade players whose contracts are ending or could end due to an option or ETO.

For three months or until December 15 of that season (whichever is later) after signing a contract as a free agent or matching an offer sheet to a restricted free agent. This obviously does not apply to the trade completing a sign-and-trade transaction (see question number 92).

For three months or until December 15 of that season (whichever is later) after converting a Two-Way contract to a standard contract (see question number 83), with the three months beginning on the date the contract is converted.

For three months or until January 15 of that season (whichever is later) after re-signing a free agent with Larry Bird or Early Bird rights, if the team is over the cap, the player's new salary is above the minimum, and he receives a raise greater than 20%.

For 30 days after signing as a draft pick. This applies even for later-signed first round picks, who are signed using cap room at least three seasons after they are drafted (see question number 49).

For 30 days after signing a Two-Way contract (see question number 82).

For one year after signing a player to a Designated Veteran contract or extension (see question number 24).

For six months after signing a player to an extension that is over the limit (in terms of years, salary or raises) for an extend-and-trade transaction5 (see question number 95).

After claiming a player on waivers, for 30 days if the player was claimed during the season. If the player was claimed during the offseason, he cannot be traded until the 30th day of the following season.

A team cannot reacquire a player it traded away during the same season (a season for this purpose being defined as starting on the first day of the regular season and ending on the last day of the Finals). If the player was traded between seasons (i.e., from the first day after the Finals to the last day prior to the start of the next regular season), it cannot reacquire the player prior to the end of the next season. If he is waived by his new team, then he cannot re-sign with his original team until the one-year anniversary of the trade, or until the July 1 following the end of his contract, whichever comes first6. However, if a team trades a player's draft rights, it can reacquire the player during the same season.

A team cannot acquire players during a season when they do not have room on their 15-man roster, even if they intend to waive an incoming player immediately. For example, a team with 14 players cannot trade one player for three, while simultaneously waiving an incoming player to remain at 15 players7.

In the case of the Poison Pill Provision, those rules only apply after the player's eligibility to be traded is re-instated. For instance if Brown signed his extension say last February, at the deadline, then after 6 months, in September of this year, he could be have been traded using Poison Pill Provisions.

But Brown signed in October which means he isn't eligible to be traded until after the trade deadline this year or, in other words, after the Celtics' season ends this year.

If that's the case then why is the ESPN trade machine allowing Jaylen to be traded?

No offense, but I would believe ESPN more than any info I get on any basketball forum.

Re: Big Man Options
« Reply #158 on: November 08, 2019, 12:28:31 PM »

Offline Fierce1

  • NGT
  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1816
  • Tommy Points: 86
https://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/7244847

realgm trade checker also allows Brown to be traded.

Re: Big Man Options
« Reply #159 on: November 08, 2019, 12:32:14 PM »

Offline saltlover

  • Frank Ramsey
  • ************
  • Posts: 12016
  • Tommy Points: 2555
https://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/7244847

realgm trade checker also allows Brown to be traded.

RealGM is wrong, quite simply.  I’ve explained this rule to you before, linked to the authority that is Larry Koon, and you ignored it.  Brown can’t be traded for 6 months after signing his extension, which takes us past the trade deadline and even the end of the regular season.

Here’s the language directly from the CBA (emphasis added):

Quote
n the event a player enters into an Extension pursuant to Section 7(a) above (other than a Designated Veteran Player Extension governed by Section (f)(ii) below) that covers four (4) or more Seasons and/or provides for Salary and Unlikely Bonuses or annual increases in the player’s Salary and Unlikely Bonuses in excess of the amounts permissible in connection with Extensions entered in connection with an agreement to trade the Contract pursuant to Section 8(e)(2) above, the player may not be traded before six (6) months following the date on which such Extension was signed.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2019, 12:38:48 PM by saltlover »

Re: Big Man Options
« Reply #160 on: November 08, 2019, 12:39:29 PM »

Offline Fierce1

  • NGT
  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1816
  • Tommy Points: 86
https://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/7244847

realgm trade checker also allows Brown to be traded.

RealGM is wrong, quite simply.  I’ve explained this rule to you before, linked to the authority that is Larry Koon, and you ignored it.  Brown can’t be traded for 180 days after signing his extensions, which takes us past the trade deadline and even the end of the regular season.

ESPN trade machine also says Brown can be traded.

The article below also says the PPP operates under different rules.

Here:
However, the concept we’re focusing on today doesn’t involve Johnson, the Arenas provision, or RFA offer sheets. Instead, this second meaning of the “poison pill” relates to players who recently signed rookie scale extensions, something five players did in 2018.

The “poison pill provision” arises if a team extends a player’s rookie scale contract, then trades him before the extension officially takes effect. It’s a rare situation, but it features its own set of rules, since extensions following rookie contracts often create a large gap between a player’s current and future salaries.

For salary-matching purposes, if a player is traded between the time his rookie contract is extended and the following July 1 (when that extension takes effect), the player’s incoming value for the receiving team is the average of his current-year salary and the annual salary in each year of his extension. His current team, on the other hand, simply treats his current-year salary as the outgoing figure for matching purposes.

Let’s use Larry Nance Jr. as an example. Nance signed a four-year, $44.8MM rookie scale extension with the Cavaliers this year, which locks him up through the 2022/23 season. However, he’s only only the books for $2,272,391 in 2018/19.

If the Cavs were to abruptly change course on Nance and decided to trade him this season, the poison pill provision would complicate their efforts. From Cleveland’s perspective, Nance’s current-year cap hit ($2,272,391) would represent his outgoing salary for matching purposes. However, any team acquiring Nance would have to view his incoming value as $9,414,478 — that’s the annual average of the five years and $47,072,391 he has left when accounting for both his new and old contracts.

https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2018/10/hoops-rumors-glossary-poison-pill-provision.html

Re: Big Man Options
« Reply #161 on: November 08, 2019, 12:41:55 PM »

Offline nickagneta

  • Global Moderator
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 38670
  • Tommy Points: 6253
https://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/7244847

realgm trade checker also allows Brown to be traded.

RealGM is wrong, quite simply.  I’ve explained this rule to you before, linked to the authority that is Larry Koon, and you ignored it.  Brown can’t be traded for 180 days after signing his extensions, which takes us past the trade deadline and even the end of the regular season.
To prove this...from NBA.com

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nba.com/amp/league/trade-deadline-explained

Quote
EXTENSION-AND-TRADES

• Max Length: 3 years

(including year(s) remaining in the original term)

• Max First-Year Salary: 105% of the salary in the last year of the original term.

• Max Annual Increase: 5% of the salary in the first year of the extended term.

If a player signs a contract extension for a longer period, a higher amount, or higher annual increases than would be permitted for an extension-and-trade, then the team is prohibited from trading the player for a period of six months following the date of the extension.

Re: Big Man Options
« Reply #162 on: November 08, 2019, 12:46:18 PM »

Offline Fierce1

  • NGT
  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1816
  • Tommy Points: 86
Here's the counter.

The “poison pill provision” arises if a team extends a player’s rookie scale contract, then trades him before the extension officially takes effect. It’s a rare situation, but it features its own set of rules, since extensions following rookie contracts often create a large gap between a player’s current and future salaries.


Re: Big Man Options
« Reply #163 on: November 08, 2019, 12:51:51 PM »

Offline Fierce1

  • NGT
  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1816
  • Tommy Points: 86
#91 from Coon's Salary Cap FAQ

For example, if a player on the last year of his rookie scale contract earns $5 million in 2018-19, and his contract is extended for four seasons starting at $10 million, with 5% raises, then his salary in each season will be:

Season   Salary
2018-19   $5,000,000
2019-20   $10,000,000
2020-21   $10,500,000
2021-22   $11,000,000
2022-23   $11,500,000
If this player is traded during the 2018-19 season, then his outgoing salary from the sending team's perspective is his actual salary -- $5 million. But the player's incoming salary from the receiving team's perspective is $9.6 million -- the average of all five seasons. Such a player would be very difficult to trade -- a legal trade can only be accomplished if both teams add additional salary to the transaction, or if they include a third team that is able to absorb excess salary.

Re: Big Man Options
« Reply #164 on: November 08, 2019, 12:53:51 PM »

Offline liam

  • Kevin Garnett
  • *****************
  • Posts: 17212
  • Tommy Points: 1178
https://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/7244847

realgm trade checker also allows Brown to be traded.

RealGM is wrong, quite simply.  I’ve explained this rule to you before, linked to the authority that is Larry Koon, and you ignored it.  Brown can’t be traded for 180 days after signing his extensions, which takes us past the trade deadline and even the end of the regular season.
To prove this...from NBA.com

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nba.com/amp/league/trade-deadline-explained

Quote
EXTENSION-AND-TRADES

• Max Length: 3 years

(including year(s) remaining in the original term)

• Max First-Year Salary: 105% of the salary in the last year of the original term.

• Max Annual Increase: 5% of the salary in the first year of the extended term.

If a player signs a contract extension for a longer period, a higher amount, or higher annual increases than would be permitted for an extension-and-trade, then the team is prohibited from trading the player for a period of six months following the date of the extension.

Facts are just in the way at this point! ;D