I'm kind of disappointed in Tatum as a scorer

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

I think he's definitely made two big improvements. As keevsnick posted, his 3 point shooting certainly has improved. He's shooting over 40% on more than 6 attempts a game. That's pretty elite.

Secondly, his rebounding has in fact improved, despite you saying otherwise. His TRB% has improved every year he's been in the league.

However, I do think some of your concerns are certainly valid. Hell, I definitely share them. His repeated whinging about not getting calls really bugs me. If he was stronger and actually played through contact instead of flailing about as soon as he can I'd be alright with the complaining. But he doesn't do that. It also, like you said, detracts from his defensive effort.
He also has one of the loosest handles I've ever seen when it comes to driving the lane. At least once or twice a game when he drives it to the paint he seems to violently lose possession of the ball, mainly due to him simply appearing to not hold it tight enough.

Maybe he never develops into a 26PPG scorer. But if we have Brown, Hayward and Kemba all averaging 17-22 (we are comfortably over that mark right now) then I don't think we need Tatum to be putting up those kind of numbers. All I want from him is better finishing inside the arc. No more mid-range shots. If his shot-chart started to look like Ray Allen's I'd actually be happy.

I agree. I know that Brad says that sometimes a midrange shot is the best, but I think that's rarely true. Given 24 seconds, you can almost always find an open look from 3 or good close-range shot. From an efficiency standpoint, the midrange shot just doesn't make sense.

[mmmmm]

With this game, Jayson Tatum joins an elite class of just 18 other players ever to have a game of shooting 1 for 17 or worse.   And by 'elite', I'm not completely being sarcastic.   Look at these names:

Player             Age   Pos  Date       Tm   Opp    GS MP FG FGA
Isiah Thomas       20-301 G   1982-02-25 DET  SAS  L  1 38  1 17
Jayson Tatum       21-253 F   2019-11-11 BOS  DAL  W  1 35  1 18
Gordon Hayward     23-242 F-G 2013-11-20 UTA @ NOP L  1 39  1 17
Quentin Richardson 23-364 G   2004-04-11 LAC  SAS  L  1 43  1 17
Mike Newlin        24-029 G-F 1973-01-31 HOU @ SEA L        1 22
Tim Hardaway       25-117 G   1991-12-27 GSW @ MIN W  1 44  0 17
George Senesky     25-243 G   1947-12-03 PHW  BLB  L        1 19
Paul Seymour       26-287 G-F 1954-11-13 SYR @ MLH L    39  1 17
Chris Bosh         26-337 F-C 2011-02-24 MIA @ CHI L  1 42  1 18
Joe Graboski       27-046 F-C 1957-03-02 PHW  SYR  W        1 18
Nate Thurmond      27-214 C-F 1969-02-24 SFW  CHI  L    48  1 19
Robert Covington   27-345 F   2018-11-24 MIN  CHI  W  1 35  1 18
Jason Kidd         28-304 G   2002-01-21 NJN @ DAL L  1 44  1 17
Joe Fulks          29-129 F-C 1951-03-04 PHW @ SYR L        1 18
Tom Meschery       30-120 F   1969-02-23 SEA  BOS  W    36  1 17
Sam Jones          31-140 G-F 1964-11-11 BOS  SFW  W    23  1 17
Gail Goodrich      31-199 G   1974-11-08 LAL  NYK  L    33  1 17
Dolph Schayes      33-169 F-C 1961-11-04 SYR @ BOS L    28  1 18
Red Kerr           33-172 C-F 1966-01-05 BAL  STL  W    32  1 17


There's um ... more than a large handful of really great players in that group.

Maybe Tatum won't turn out to be a Hall of Famer like some of those guys.  But maybe we should not write him off just yet?

[droopdog7]

I basically started the same thread last month, with the gist being that Tatum was no longer a surefire star (nevermind superstar).  That doesn't mean that he won't or can't improve or become a star.  What it does mean is that the praise heaped onto tatum was premature and likely at least somewhat misguided.  He CAN be a great scorer but he has holes that won't easily be fixed (related to play making for others).

But there is a really easy way for me to make the point; Luka Doncic.

Luka is what people thought Tatum was.  Not in the similarity to their games, but in the sense that he looks like the real deal potential MVP caliber player (which was praise given to tatum by some Celt fans).  Doncic already has skills that tatum may never have and at a younger age.  In a world where you're measured up against your peers, those two are on different levels. 

[gouki88]

With this game, Jayson Tatum joins an elite class of just 18 other players ever to have a game of shooting 1 for 17 or worse.   And by 'elite', I'm not completely being sarcastic.   Look at these names:

Player             Age   Pos  Date       Tm   Opp    GS MP FG FGA
Isiah Thomas       20-301 G   1982-02-25 DET  SAS  L  1 38  1 17
Jayson Tatum       21-253 F   2019-11-11 BOS  DAL  W  1 35  1 18
Gordon Hayward     23-242 F-G 2013-11-20 UTA @ NOP L  1 39  1 17
Quentin Richardson 23-364 G   2004-04-11 LAC  SAS  L  1 43  1 17
Mike Newlin        24-029 G-F 1973-01-31 HOU @ SEA L        1 22
Tim Hardaway       25-117 G   1991-12-27 GSW @ MIN W  1 44  0 17
George Senesky     25-243 G   1947-12-03 PHW  BLB  L        1 19
Paul Seymour       26-287 G-F 1954-11-13 SYR @ MLH L    39  1 17
Chris Bosh         26-337 F-C 2011-02-24 MIA @ CHI L  1 42  1 18
Joe Graboski       27-046 F-C 1957-03-02 PHW  SYR  W        1 18
Nate Thurmond      27-214 C-F 1969-02-24 SFW  CHI  L    48  1 19
Robert Covington   27-345 F   2018-11-24 MIN  CHI  W  1 35  1 18
Jason Kidd         28-304 G   2002-01-21 NJN @ DAL L  1 44  1 17
Joe Fulks          29-129 F-C 1951-03-04 PHW @ SYR L        1 18
Tom Meschery       30-120 F   1969-02-23 SEA  BOS  W    36  1 17
Sam Jones          31-140 G-F 1964-11-11 BOS  SFW  W    23  1 17
Gail Goodrich      31-199 G   1974-11-08 LAL  NYK  L    33  1 17
Dolph Schayes      33-169 F-C 1961-11-04 SYR @ BOS L    28  1 18
Red Kerr           33-172 C-F 1966-01-05 BAL  STL  W    32  1 17


There's um ... more than a large handful of really great players in that group.

Maybe Tatum won't turn out to be a Hall of Famer like some of those guys.  But maybe we should not write him off just yet?

Who the heck let Rob Covington take 18 shots? Lol.

[mmmmm]

One thing about last night's performance (I even heard some talking heads mention it) - when I checked the boxscore after watching the game, I was absolutely amazed at the 1-18 stat, I had no idea that he took nor missed so many. That means the shots he took werent forced but in the flow of the game and that is perfectly fine in my book. They will start dropping some time, it just wasnt yesterday.

FWiW, 10 of Tatum's 18 FGA were uncontested.  So those shots certainly were not forced.  He was contested on 8 of his shots, but that doesn't mean they were necessarily bad shots -- ideally, you'd like to see him getting drawn fouls on some of those those, but he couldn't buy a foul call in this game.   Some of that's on him - there is definitely an element of skill involved with forcing the refs to blow the whistle.  That tends to get better with experience.

For a comparative game last night, Kawhi Leonard had 15 scoring attempts and only made 2 baskets from the field.  But because he was able to draw foul calls, he was actually only charged with 11 FGA and was able to hit some free throws so still logged 12 points.  So an almost equally crappy shooting night as Tatum but salvaged into at least something positive by getting to the line.

That's the difference that Jayson needs to make in his game.

[hwangjini_1]

ah yes, a single game's performance becomes the basis for a definitive judgement on a player who is 21 years old and scoring just over 19 points a game this season.  clearly nothing else weighs as much as immediacy in making career predictions.

hmmmm....a rush to judgement? a premature and hasty final judgement on a young player's career?

i must be at CS. 

here are some other losers who will never be super stars as their craptastic one game results will show.

charles barkley
The game: Game 3, 1995 Western Conference Semifinals vs. Rockets
The stats: 5 points, 0-for-10 from the field

larry bird
The game: Game 4, 1985 Eastern Conference Finals vs. Sixers
The stats: 8 turnovers, 4-for-15 from the field

magic johnson
The game: Game 6, 1988 Western Conference Semifinals vs. Jazz
The stats: 10 points, 3-for-12 from the field

patrick ewing
The game: Game 1, 1991 Eastern Conference Quarterfinals vs. Bulls
The stats: 6 points, 6 rebounds, 1 assist, 5 fouls, 5 turnovers

michel jordan
The game: Game 1, 1995 Eastern Conference Semifinals vs. Magic
The stats: 8-for-22 from the field, 8 turnovers

karl malone
The game: Game 3, 1997 Western Conference Semifinals
The stats: 0 assists, 2-for-20 from the field

kevin garnett
The game: Game 5, 1998 Eastern Conference Quarterfinals vs. Supersonics
The stats: 7 points, 10 turnovers, 3-for-11 shooting

kobe bryant
The game: Game 5, 2000 NBA Finals vs. Pacers
The stats: 8 points, 3 assists, 4-for-20 from the field

[mmmmm]

I basically started the same thread last month, with the gist being that Tatum was no longer a surefire star (nevermind superstar).  That doesn't mean that he won't or can't improve or become a star.  What it does mean is that the praise heaped onto tatum was premature and likely at least somewhat misguided.  He CAN be a great scorer but he has holes that won't easily be fixed (related to play making for others).

But there is a really easy way for me to make the point; Luka Doncic.

Luka is what people thought Tatum was. Not in the similarity to their games, but in the sense that he looks like the real deal potential MVP caliber player (which was praise given to tatum by some Celt fans).  Doncic already has skills that tatum may never have and at a younger age.  In a world where you're measured up against your peers, those two are on different levels.

I don't think this is true.   Tatum has always been consider a premium blue-chip NBA prospect, and very likely to be multi-time All-Star level of player.  And I think he's still seen that way.

But Luka Doncic is something else entirely.  Luka has been drawing comparisons to Lebron in terms of being ridiculously better than any other same age players of their generation.   Lebron was a man playing with boys in high school.  Luka has been a boy playing with men during his 'high school' years.   He is a basketball savant and anybody who has been paying attention to his rocket like rise through various levels of Euro pro basketball has known he is something special.   This is a kid who's future screams 'perennial MVP candidate'.

I don't think Luka represents a fair metric for any other young players.   We don't need Jayson Tatum to be as exceptional as Luka Doncic in order to be a success.  Tatum doesn't need to be a perennial MVP candidate and I don't know of many scouts who seriously ever expected him to be.   There is a lot of room for great success without that expectation.

Paul Pierce was almost never in the MVP conversation during his career.  Usually just on the fringes of it.  His highest finish in the voting was 7th and he otherwise always finished outside the top 10. He never made All-NBA first team -- just multiple 3rd & 2nd teams.  Yet he was a multi-year All-Star and a definite Hall Of Famer long before his career was over.    Ray Allen was a similar level of player.   Multiple year All-Star, a couple of All-NBA 2nd & 3rd teams.  Only a couples appearances on the fringes of MVP considerations (9th was his best finish).   And ultimately, like Paul, a great, HoF player.

[gouki88]

ah yes, a single game's performance becomes the basis for a definitive judgement on a player who is 21 years old and scoring just over 19 points a game this season.  clearly nothing else weighs as much as immediacy in making career predictions.

hmmmm....a rush to judgement? a premature and hasty final judgement on a young player's career?

i must be at CS. 

here are some other losers who will never be super stars as their craptastic one game results will show.

charles barkley
The game: Game 3, 1995 Western Conference Semifinals vs. Rockets
The stats: 5 points, 0-for-10 from the field

larry bird
The game: Game 4, 1985 Eastern Conference Finals vs. Sixers
The stats: 8 turnovers, 4-for-15 from the field

magic johnson
The game: Game 6, 1988 Western Conference Semifinals vs. Jazz
The stats: 10 points, 3-for-12 from the field

patrick ewing
The game: Game 1, 1991 Eastern Conference Quarterfinals vs. Bulls
The stats: 6 points, 6 rebounds, 1 assist, 5 fouls, 5 turnovers

michel jordan
The game: Game 1, 1995 Eastern Conference Semifinals vs. Magic
The stats: 8-for-22 from the field, 8 turnovers

karl malone
The game: Game 3, 1997 Western Conference Semifinals
The stats: 0 assists, 2-for-20 from the field

kevin garnett
The game: Game 5, 1998 Eastern Conference Quarterfinals vs. Supersonics
The stats: 7 points, 10 turnovers, 3-for-11 shooting

kobe bryant
The game: Game 5, 2000 NBA Finals vs. Pacers
The stats: 8 points, 3 assists, 4-for-20 from the field

Hey, Ewing nearly had a 5x5!

[Neurotic Guy]

I basically started the same thread last month, with the gist being that Tatum was no longer a surefire star (nevermind superstar).  That doesn't mean that he won't or can't improve or become a star.  What it does mean is that the praise heaped onto tatum was premature and likely at least somewhat misguided.  He CAN be a great scorer but he has holes that won't easily be fixed (related to play making for others).

But there is a really easy way for me to make the point; Luka Doncic.

Luka is what people thought Tatum was.  Not in the similarity to their games, but in the sense that he looks like the real deal potential MVP caliber player (which was praise given to tatum by some Celt fans).  Doncic already has skills that tatum may never have and at a younger age.  In a world where you're measured up against your peers, those two are on different levels.

Maybe some people thought of Tatum the way they are thinking now of Luka -- but honestly, I don't know who.   Jayson Tatum is absolutely STILL on the trajectory most had him on.    Early in the season a bomb like last night hurts the season stats, but we are still talking about a 21yo averaging 19.4 and 7.7 boards.  And virtually every stat is trending up career-wise.   As a rookie, hopes were he'd become a perennial all-star and I think that is still in play.  He's a year and a half younger and with a year less NBA experience than Jaylen Brown.   The Jayson Tatum of early 2019-20 is pretty clearly in a better place than the Jaylen Brown of early 2018-19. Obviously, JT may not take the leap JB has appeared to make (in Year 4), but JT is possibly in the all-star conversation THIS YEAR (at 21), and very likely next year.   That couldn't be more precisely what people hoped he'd be at 22.

As far as Luka goes, he has the look of an all-time great (barring injury) in his first season+.   I don't believe I ever heard anyone sugggest that about Jayson.

[PhoSita]

Can anybody think of examples of wing / forward scorer types who came into the league really slight / gazelle-like and then bulked up a lot, resulting in a greater penchant for creating and finishing through contact?

I suppose Giannis is one guy who definitely bulked up a ton and now seems not to have nearly as much trouble with contact as he did earlier in his career when he was a beanpole.

[ETNCeltics]

You could've said many of these things about Brown a year ago.

This is ridiculous. He's 21 years old, coming off a terrible game. Some of you have zero patience.

[Tr1boy]

He's a good scorer, and he's young and he shows flashes, but i thought he would be better offensively by now. He's still missing point blank layups (like the one last night) and the game just doesn't look that easy for him right now. Maybe he's overthinking out there i'm not sure, but i honestly thought he'd be a more dynamic scorer at this point in time.

Why??

He is still young

He may also not be the "sharpest" but during crunch time he has another gear

On the flipside other good players maybe sharp but dont have that extra clutch ability. Like Brogdon or McCollum for example

Celts notched the #1 pick at #3. Double the value

[Sophomore]

I think he's definitely made two big improvements. As keevsnick posted, his 3 point shooting certainly has improved. He's shooting over 40% on more than 6 attempts a game. That's pretty elite.

Secondly, his rebounding has in fact improved, despite you saying otherwise. His TRB% has improved every year he's been in the league.

However, I do think some of your concerns are certainly valid. Hell, I definitely share them. His repeated whinging about not getting calls really bugs me. If he was stronger and actually played through contact instead of flailing about as soon as he can I'd be alright with the complaining. But he doesn't do that. It also, like you said, detracts from his defensive effort.
He also has one of the loosest handles I've ever seen when it comes to driving the lane. At least once or twice a game when he drives it to the paint he seems to violently lose possession of the ball, mainly due to him simply appearing to not hold it tight enough.

Maybe he never develops into a 26PPG scorer. But if we have Brown, Hayward and Kemba all averaging 17-22 (we are comfortably over that mark right now) then I don't think we need Tatum to be putting up those kind of numbers. All I want from him is better finishing inside the arc. No more mid-range shots. If his shot-chart started to look like Ray Allen's I'd actually be happy.

I agree. I know that Brad says that sometimes a midrange shot is the best, but I think that's rarely true. Given 24 seconds, you can almost always find an open look from 3 or good close-range shot. From an efficiency standpoint, the midrange shot just doesn't make sense.

Well, there are midrange shots and midrange shots. I think ppl lump categories together that are quite different. Shots 6-15 feet out, especially in the paint or near the elbow, are to me much different than shots 18-24 feet out on the wing.

Also, the more you prove you can hit from your spots, even a “midrange 2”, the more you should be free to make them part of your game. Hayward and Lowry are the most obvious current examples. The truth certainly loved that elbow jumper.

But JT? Last year he hit 34.9% from 16-23’ those should be a break-the-glass in case of emergency last option until proven otherwise. Even worse when those come after a prolonged, offense-clogging shake and bake that fails to free him for a better shot.

[blink]

A single game isn't definitive proof of anything.

Exactly. He was terrible for one game, big deal.  He has a great future.  Even future all-stars have the occasional stinker game.

The only thing I would be critical of him in a game like that is he needs to not let the bad shooting effect other parts of his game.  If he isn't hitting shots, make yourself valuable in some other way on those type of  nights.

[Fafnir]

A single game isn't definitive proof of anything.

Exactly. He was terrible for one game, big deal.  He has a great future.  Even future all-stars have the occasional stinker game.

The only thing I would be critical of him in a game like that is he needs to not let the bad shooting effect other parts of his game.  If he isn't hitting shots, make yourself valuable in some other way on those type of  nights.

I mean he had 8 rebounds, 4 assists, and a steal. (only 1 TO ) Plus I thought his defense was good.

Doesn't make up for 1-18 shooting but he was still out there engaged.