Author Topic: Grant Williams vs Draymond Green  (Read 14789 times)

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Re: Grant Williams vs Draymond Green
« Reply #60 on: October 27, 2019, 06:27:05 PM »

Offline mr. dee

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One thing I noticed is Gwill knows how to box out and is a bruiser inside. Draymond is more of a perimeter big.

Re: Grant Williams vs Draymond Green
« Reply #61 on: October 27, 2019, 08:17:21 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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Grant Williams highlights...  those blocks are crazy nice.  Brad Stevens also goes hysterical on the RJB block  ;D

vs Knicks
https://twitter.com/Timi_093/status/1188428989339226112

vs Raptors
https://twitter.com/Timi_093/status/1188066357402886144

Re: Grant Williams vs Draymond Green
« Reply #62 on: October 27, 2019, 08:26:39 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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Btw on the NBA website they have him listed as measuring 6’7.5 in shoes with a 6’9.75 wingspan at the Draft Combine

So not sure why some folks keep listing him as 6'6' (Draymond Green height with shoes)  or even 6'5 (Jae Crowder, Chuck Hayes, PJ Tucker with shoes)


Re: Grant Williams vs Draymond Green
« Reply #63 on: October 27, 2019, 08:41:15 PM »

Offline KG Living Legend

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Btw on the NBA website they have him listed as measuring 6’7.5 in shoes with a 6’9.75 wingspan at the Draft Combine

So not sure why some folks keep listing him as 6'6' (Draymond Green height with shoes)  or even 6'5 (Jae Crowder, Chuck Hayes, PJ Tucker with shoes)



 Triboy come on. Use your eyes. Do you really see him on the court and think yeah he's 6'7.5"

https://stats.nba.com/draft/combine-anthro/

 Scroll to the bottom of the link.

 He has giant hands. 10.5" hand width. Which is excellent.

 These are official measurements so hopefully this is the last time we have to go over this.

He's 6.5.75" without shoes. That is his real height. So call him 6'6" that's cool.

 He's 6'7.5" in shoes. Which means nothing to me. That's almost 2" taller than his no shoes height.

 Wingspan is almost 6'10" 6'9.75" officially.

Re: Grant Williams vs Draymond Green
« Reply #64 on: October 27, 2019, 08:59:46 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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Btw on the NBA website they have him listed as measuring 6’7.5 in shoes with a 6’9.75 wingspan at the Draft Combine

So not sure why some folks keep listing him as 6'6' (Draymond Green height with shoes)  or even 6'5 (Jae Crowder, Chuck Hayes, PJ Tucker with shoes)



 Triboy come on. Use your eyes. Do you really see him on the court and think yeah he's 6'7.5"

https://stats.nba.com/draft/combine-anthro/

 Scroll to the bottom of the link.

 He has giant hands. 10.5" hand width. Which is excellent.

 These are official measurements so hopefully this is the last time we have to go over this.

He's 6.5.75" without shoes. That is his real height. So call him 6'6" that's cool.

 He's 6'7.5" in shoes. Which means nothing to me. That's almost 2" taller than his no shoes height.

 Wingspan is almost 6'10" 6'9.75" officially.

yes he does look at least 6'7 (similar to Sully and an inch taller than Yabu)

why does it mean nothing to you? in your eyes is

Lebron 6'7 (without shoes),  Horford is 6'8.5 (without shoes), Crowder 6'3.75,  Smart 6'2 etc. ??

« Last Edit: October 27, 2019, 09:09:56 PM by Tr1boy »

Re: Grant Williams vs Draymond Green
« Reply #65 on: October 27, 2019, 09:42:19 PM »

Offline Scottiej23

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The thing that impresses me most about Williams so far is his ability to stop opposition players from rebounding. He may not get the board himself, but he carves out a ton of space with his body and keeps his man from getting the board as well. As far as comparisons go, body wise he brings back memories of Brandon Hunter.

Re: Grant Williams vs Draymond Green
« Reply #66 on: October 27, 2019, 09:44:26 PM »

Offline BitterJim

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Grant and Draymond may be a good comp on offense (though Grant still has a ways to go to get there), but I don't like the comp on the defensive end. Don't get me wrong, Grant is a good defender, but he doesn't seem to have the multiple-time DPOY ceiling of Green

At the end of the day, it’s really difficult to project anyone who’s barely played in the NBA as a DPOY.  Certainly no one would have projected that for Draymond after his rookie year, and it’s not a big stretch to say that Grant at 21 is equal to or ahead of where a Draymond was at 22.  The thing that will define his ceiling will probably be best observed in his foul totals.  He’s a very physical and engaged defender, which puts him at risk of fouling when he gets beaten.  Draymond averaged 7.6 fouls per 100 in his rookie year and 6.4 his second year, compared to the 3.9-4.2 range for his best seasons.  Fouling was a problem Grant had at times in college, and through three games he’s at 6.8 per 100, which (small sample size of course) looks similar to the issues Draymond dealt with early in his career.  If he can bring that foul rate down while otherwise playing largely the same style, he might be able to reach similar value on defense to Draymond.

To me there is almost no chance Grant reaches Draymond's level defensively. Draymond has one of the highest defensive basketball IQ's ever, even if you think Grant's is very advanced thats a high bar. Draymond is also significantly longer than Williams.

Draymond comparisons are almost as annoying to me as Durant comparisons. Those guys are freaks in terms of wingspan/basketball IQ. Theres a reason they are DPOY/MVP candidates every year.

Ultimately BBIQ is unquantifiable, so there’s really no good way to have a debate with any agreeable metrics.  All I will say is that Grant looks ahead of where Draymond was at similar ages.  For one, he is in the NBA 20 months younger.  Two, he seems to be more effective than Draymond was in his rookie year — again, only 3 games in and that can change, but Green didn’t even become a member of the rotation until mid-November.  Three, I think one stat that can show a hint of defensive BBIQ is offensive fouls drawn.  You’re more likely to get those if, as a defender, you’ve anticipated where the offensive player is going and gotten there first.  As a rookie, Draymond drew a respectable 7 in a little over 1000 minutes on the court.  Through his first three games, Grant already has 3.

Again, BBIQ is virtually unquantifiable, and it’s very possible that Draymond and Grant have/had different trajectories in terms of the development of this skill.  But Grant’s already displayed a rare ability, and it would not be impossible for him to be near Draymond’s equal.
let's pick some nits. first, your two bolded statements contradict one another by their premises concerning whether something can be quantified. the first declares it cannot. the second implies it is nearly impossible, or at least exceedingly difficult. these are not the same and the difference between "possible" and "impossible" is significant  ;D

next, before we can say whether something can be quantified, we are obliged to FIRST DEFINE the concept. that has not been done here, has it?.

if BBIQ is rendered as a collection of quantifiable categories, such as "number of successful picks + passes - turnovers," then yes, it is indeed quantifiable. but, if your definition is vague, or imprecise, includes non-quantifiable concepts, or is rooted in subjectivity then it becomes unquantifiable.

next, even if the definition can be quantified since it is clearly defined, is the resulting data of any real usefullness? for example, a brilliant and humorous article once spoke of how to quantify holes. first, theorize what is a hole. is something this is NOT there? or is a hole something that is there?  ;D

next, having done this we can quantify holes. for example, warfare greatly increases the number of holes. true, but ultimately who gives a crap?

back to BBIQ, add to the above whether all parties share this identical definition for BBIQ. if different parties have different definitions then conversation becomes very difficult as one side talks past the other, even though identical words (but not definitions) are being invoked by each party.

sigh, sigh, sigh...such complications that can flow out of poorly built foundations.  ;D

At the very least, I think we can all agree on a couple of basic things about BBIQ:

1. For non-players, BBQ>>>>BBIQ. I think this is a pretty undeniable truth, but would be willing to take an extensive trip through the south to gather more data if needed
2. For players, BBIQ>>>>>>BBQ. As a basic example, I would point out that there has never been a player with too much BBIQ, while there are several examples of players that have eaten themselves out of the league (and due to the basic law of BBQ being amazing, I think we can definitely assign at least part of the blame to it)
I'm bitter.

Re: Grant Williams vs Draymond Green
« Reply #67 on: October 27, 2019, 09:47:03 PM »

Offline KG Living Legend

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Btw on the NBA website they have him listed as measuring 6’7.5 in shoes with a 6’9.75 wingspan at the Draft Combine

So not sure why some folks keep listing him as 6'6' (Draymond Green height with shoes)  or even 6'5 (Jae Crowder, Chuck Hayes, PJ Tucker with shoes)



 Triboy come on. Use your eyes. Do you really see him on the court and think yeah he's 6'7.5"

https://stats.nba.com/draft/combine-anthro/

 Scroll to the bottom of the link.

 He has giant hands. 10.5" hand width. Which is excellent.

 These are official measurements so hopefully this is the last time we have to go over this.

He's 6.5.75" without shoes. That is his real height. So call him 6'6" that's cool.

 He's 6'7.5" in shoes. Which means nothing to me. That's almost 2" taller than his no shoes height.

 Wingspan is almost 6'10" 6'9.75" officially.

yes he does look at least 6'7 (similar to Sully and an inch taller than Yabu)

why does it mean nothing to you? in your eyes is

Lebron 6'7 (without shoes),  Horford is 6'8.5 (without shoes), Crowder 6'3.75,  Smart 6'2 etc. ??


 It means nothing because shoes vary from 1 inch to 2.75" is thicknes

 Grant Williams "in shoes" Height is 1.75" higher than his no shoes Height.

 By the way Draymond Green was also listed as the exact same height. No shoes at the combine. 6'5.75"

 I'm fine with calling him 6'6" The NBA is supposedly trying to crack down on BS heights.

 If you ask me it makes what guys like Grant Williams do even more impressive.

 This dude is about to be our potentially best small ball Center at 6'6" that's awesome.

Re: Grant Williams vs Draymond Green
« Reply #68 on: October 27, 2019, 09:55:01 PM »

Offline Sophomore

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Grant and Draymond may be a good comp on offense (though Grant still has a ways to go to get there), but I don't like the comp on the defensive end. Don't get me wrong, Grant is a good defender, but he doesn't seem to have the multiple-time DPOY ceiling of Green

At the end of the day, it’s really difficult to project anyone who’s barely played in the NBA as a DPOY.  Certainly no one would have projected that for Draymond after his rookie year, and it’s not a big stretch to say that Grant at 21 is equal to or ahead of where a Draymond was at 22.  The thing that will define his ceiling will probably be best observed in his foul totals.  He’s a very physical and engaged defender, which puts him at risk of fouling when he gets beaten.  Draymond averaged 7.6 fouls per 100 in his rookie year and 6.4 his second year, compared to the 3.9-4.2 range for his best seasons.  Fouling was a problem Grant had at times in college, and through three games he’s at 6.8 per 100, which (small sample size of course) looks similar to the issues Draymond dealt with early in his career.  If he can bring that foul rate down while otherwise playing largely the same style, he might be able to reach similar value on defense to Draymond.

To me there is almost no chance Grant reaches Draymond's level defensively. Draymond has one of the highest defensive basketball IQ's ever, even if you think Grant's is very advanced thats a high bar. Draymond is also significantly longer than Williams.

Draymond comparisons are almost as annoying to me as Durant comparisons. Those guys are freaks in terms of wingspan/basketball IQ. Theres a reason they are DPOY/MVP candidates every year.

Ultimately BBIQ is unquantifiable, so there’s really no good way to have a debate with any agreeable metrics.  All I will say is that Grant looks ahead of where Draymond was at similar ages.  For one, he is in the NBA 20 months younger.  Two, he seems to be more effective than Draymond was in his rookie year — again, only 3 games in and that can change, but Green didn’t even become a member of the rotation until mid-November.  Three, I think one stat that can show a hint of defensive BBIQ is offensive fouls drawn.  You’re more likely to get those if, as a defender, you’ve anticipated where the offensive player is going and gotten there first.  As a rookie, Draymond drew a respectable 7 in a little over 1000 minutes on the court.  Through his first three games, Grant already has 3.

Again, BBIQ is virtually unquantifiable, and it’s very possible that Draymond and Grant have/had different trajectories in terms of the development of this skill.  But Grant’s already displayed a rare ability, and it would not be impossible for him to be near Draymond’s equal.
let's pick some nits. first, your two bolded statements contradict one another by their premises concerning whether something can be quantified. the first declares it cannot. the second implies it is nearly impossible, or at least exceedingly difficult. these are not the same and the difference between "possible" and "impossible" is significant  ;D

next, before we can say whether something can be quantified, we are obliged to FIRST DEFINE the concept. that has not been done here, has it?.

if BBIQ is rendered as a collection of quantifiable categories, such as "number of successful picks + passes - turnovers," then yes, it is indeed quantifiable. but, if your definition is vague, or imprecise, includes non-quantifiable concepts, or is rooted in subjectivity then it becomes unquantifiable.

next, even if the definition can be quantified since it is clearly defined, is the resulting data of any real usefullness? for example, a brilliant and humorous article once spoke of how to quantify holes. first, theorize what is a hole. is something this is NOT there? or is a hole something that is there?  ;D

next, having done this we can quantify holes. for example, warfare greatly increases the number of holes. true, but ultimately who gives a crap?

back to BBIQ, add to the above whether all parties share this identical definition for BBIQ. if different parties have different definitions then conversation becomes very difficult as one side talks past the other, even though identical words (but not definitions) are being invoked by each party.

sigh, sigh, sigh...such complications that can flow out of poorly built foundations.  ;D

At the very least, I think we can all agree on a couple of basic things about BBIQ:

1. For non-players, BBQ>>>>BBIQ. I think this is a pretty undeniable truth, but would be willing to take an extensive trip through the south to gather more data if needed
2. For players, BBIQ>>>>>>BBQ. As a basic example, I would point out that there has never been a player with too much BBIQ, while there are several examples of players that have eaten themselves out of the league (and due to the basic law of BBQ being amazing, I think we can definitely assign at least part of the blame to it)

That’s good sauce, bitter.

Re: Grant Williams vs Draymond Green
« Reply #69 on: October 27, 2019, 10:03:35 PM »

Offline mr. dee

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Height and reach are useless if you don't know how to utilize them. There's a reason why many bigs are struggling to earn playing time, unless they are floor spacers. Guys like Ben Wallace, Charles Barkley, Dennis Rodman, etc. are way undersized for bigs but they play and dominate like one.