The Ultimate “What If...?” = Kyrie for Kawhi Last Year

[GreenlyGreeny]

What if Kyrie leaving game seven had left such a bad taste last year that Ainge had traded Kyrie to the Spurs straight-up for Kawhi. What would have happened in 2018-2019 and what would our roster look like today?

Trying to think of a creative way to pass through the boring part of the offseason and thought this might help...

[Jiri Welsch]

We’d be a lot worse off next season because Kawhi would have likely left after this season.

[NKY fan]

What if we trade Hayward to philly for Horford mid season? Could solve both teams problems

[gouki88]

What if we trade Hayward to philly for Horford mid season? Could solve both teams problems

I... what?

[CelticsPoetry]

We’d be a lot worse off next season because Kawhi would have likely left after this season.

That's exactly what happened with Kyrie, so the result is the same

[NKY fan]

We’d be a lot worse off next season because Kawhi would have likely left after this season.

That's exactly what happened with Kyrie, so the result is the same

Yes these hypothetical trades are crazy just as the one I posted... I do think however that Danny has to do something borderline crazy because keeping the course is not working... well it works to get close but not all the way

[Moranis]

I'd rather have traded Brown, Smart, Morris (and filler if needed) for Kawhi/Green and paired him with Kyrie.  That would have helped a lot more with roster construction as well

Edit: What I mean is, if we had just trade Kyrie for Kawhi, we would have had 4 SF's (maybe 3 if you count Brown only as a SG) and all in the 5 best players on the team.  Plus, Rozier and Wannamaker would have been the only PG's.  So how do you work out the minutes for Smart, Brown, Hayward, Tatum, and Leonard (not to mention Morris)?  That just doesn't seem like a good recipe at all.  Now if you do the Brown, Smart, Morris for Leonard and Green trade, that makes the roster work out so much better with Kyrie and Rozier at the point, and then only Green, Hayward, Leonard, and Tatum at the 2/3 spots.  That just flows so much better.

[GreenEnvy]

We’d be a lot worse off next season because Kawhi would have likely left after this season.

How would we be any worse? You do know Kyrie left after the season, right?

We would have been a better team and arguably champions.

[slamtheking]

I'd rather have traded Brown, Smart, Morris (and filler if needed) for Kawhi/Green and paired him with Kyrie.  That would have helped a lot more with roster construction as well

dear lord no.  just no.

Kawhi was not going to resign here.  You're giving up a top prospect, an all-NBA defender and a prime scorer off the bench for a known 1-year rental and there's absolutely no guarantee Kawhi meshes well with Kyrie to achieve a title.  On top of that, this offseason we're now without Kawhi, Kyrie, Horford, Brown and Smart leaving as our only 'prime' assets a regressed Tatum and hopefully-still-recovering Hayward as our lure to try to sign Kemba.   

This is a swing-for-the-fences move that would have lasted just one season and left the franchise a wreck going forward.

[NKY fan]

I'd rather have traded Brown, Smart, Morris (and filler if needed) for Kawhi/Green and paired him with Kyrie.  That would have helped a lot more with roster construction as well

dear lord no.  just no.

Kawhi was not going to resign here.  You're giving up a top prospect, an all-NBA defender and a prime scorer off the bench for a known 1-year rental and there's absolutely no guarantee Kawhi meshes well with Kyrie to achieve a title.  On top of that, this offseason we're now without Kawhi, Kyrie, Horford, Brown and Smart leaving as our only 'prime' assets a regressed Tatum and hopefully-still-recovering Hayward as our lure to try to sign Kemba.   

This is a swing-for-the-fences move that would have lasted just one season and left the franchise a wreck going forward.

If you think that smart , brown and Morris would bring you a title I feel sorry for you. It’s that type of thinking that some fans plus Danny have:  never to “overpay” that will never bring a title here. Kawhi proved he can deliver a title ... he is that good... he is a lot more valuable than Davis and still you wouldn’t trade for him..
You realize that other teams fans make fun of Danny for sitting on his “assets” ... now he’s stuck with the dilemma whether to “overpay” brown or no

[Donoghus]

I'd rather have traded Brown, Smart, Morris (and filler if needed) for Kawhi/Green and paired him with Kyrie.  That would have helped a lot more with roster construction as well

dear lord no.  just no.

Kawhi was not going to resign here.  You're giving up a top prospect, an all-NBA defender and a prime scorer off the bench for a known 1-year rental and there's absolutely no guarantee Kawhi meshes well with Kyrie to achieve a title.  On top of that, this offseason we're now without Kawhi, Kyrie, Horford, Brown and Smart leaving as our only 'prime' assets a regressed Tatum and hopefully-still-recovering Hayward as our lure to try to sign Kemba.   

This is a swing-for-the-fences move that would have lasted just one season and left the franchise a wreck going forward.

If you think that smart , brown and Morris would bring you a title I feel sorry for you. It’s that type of thinking that some fans plus Danny have:  never to “overpay” that will never bring a title here. Kawhi proved he can deliver a title ... he is that good... he is a lot more valuable than Davis and still you wouldn’t trade for him..
You realize that other teams fans make fun of Danny for sitting on his “assets” ... now he’s stuck with the dilemma whether to “overpay” brown or no

I think the better questions would be;

A)  Swinging that trade, would they have won the title?

B)  What would the team look like for '19-'20?  Would either of Kyrie/Kawhi be on the roster?  What's the fallout?

Reasons to be concerned.

[Moranis]

I'd rather have traded Brown, Smart, Morris (and filler if needed) for Kawhi/Green and paired him with Kyrie.  That would have helped a lot more with roster construction as well

dear lord no.  just no.

Kawhi was not going to resign here.  You're giving up a top prospect, an all-NBA defender and a prime scorer off the bench for a known 1-year rental and there's absolutely no guarantee Kawhi meshes well with Kyrie to achieve a title.  On top of that, this offseason we're now without Kawhi, Kyrie, Horford, Brown and Smart leaving as our only 'prime' assets a regressed Tatum and hopefully-still-recovering Hayward as our lure to try to sign Kemba.   

This is a swing-for-the-fences move that would have lasted just one season and left the franchise a wreck going forward.

Maybe or maybe not.  By eliminating a lot of the clutter it was far more likely that Irving liked playing here and stayed.  And Kawhi would have stayed in Toronto if they could have landed another star, here Boston would already have that star.  I think there is a better than 50% chance that both Irving and Leonard would have stayed (assuming they liked each other of course), but if not, oh well you have a title (or a final's appearance almost certainly) and you move on and build around Tatum.  Smart is a solid role player, but he isn't moving the needle.  Brown could be a solid all star player or he might not, either way he isn't a build around player.  It was worth the gamble, especially when your star is an odd duck and it is a walk year. 

And I pose this honestly, which way is the team better positioned to win a title, with a full rebuild or this half-assed crap Ainge has been doing for years?  I honestly think the team might be better off long term by not having Kemba on it and just going into full bore rebuild right now.  The goal is winning titles, the current team is destined for mediocrity unless Tatum hits, and if Tatum hits wouldn't it better to have more young potential stars to build around Tatum with and that better fit his timeline (and that isn't happening in the current state of mediocrity).

My fandom is simple, I want my team to be one of 3 things (in order of preference): (1) a legit contender; (2) a young team that clearly has the components to be a legit contender; or (3) in full bore rebuild/asset collection mode.  This current team is none of those things.  It is simply riding along in mediocrity.  They will almost certainly make the playoffs, but are far from a given of winning even one playoff series.  They could have everything go right and at best be the 3rd best team in the conference.  I can't see them falling out of the playoffs, but I wouldn't rule out the 8th seed and it is certainly possible given the poorly constructed roster and all of the moving parts is an epic fail and does miss the playoffs (again I don't think that is likely, but it wouldn't shock me either). 

At the end of the day Ainge has by and large failed since he made the Tatum/Fultz trade.  He failed in not pulling the trigger on Paul George.  He failed on not pulling the trigger on Jimmy Butler.  He failed on not pulling the trigger on Kawhi Leonard.  He failed on pulling the trigger on Irving and then not following that up by making the team a real contender (if he wasn't going to go all in around Irving, then he shouldn't have made that trade to begin with).   

[slamtheking]

We’d be a lot worse off next season because Kawhi would have likely left after this season.

How would we be any worse? You do know Kyrie left after the season, right?

We would have been a better team and arguably champions.

better how?  sure, Kawhi was the best player in that deal but considering the dysfunction on last year's team there's no guarantee Kyrie would have meshed any better with Kawhi.  We'd still have a disgruntled Rozier, a regressed Tatum and an pretty ineffective Hayward.   Team chemistry and performance was not guaranteed to be any better after that trade.

one thing that would be fairly certain is we'd be much worse off going into next year without Kyrie, Kawhi, Al, Brown and Smart and our biggest remaining assets were a regressed Tatum and still-recovering Hayward to use as a sales-pitch to try to lure Kemba or anyone else. 

[slamtheking]

I'd rather have traded Brown, Smart, Morris (and filler if needed) for Kawhi/Green and paired him with Kyrie.  That would have helped a lot more with roster construction as well

dear lord no.  just no.

Kawhi was not going to resign here.  You're giving up a top prospect, an all-NBA defender and a prime scorer off the bench for a known 1-year rental and there's absolutely no guarantee Kawhi meshes well with Kyrie to achieve a title.  On top of that, this offseason we're now without Kawhi, Kyrie, Horford, Brown and Smart leaving as our only 'prime' assets a regressed Tatum and hopefully-still-recovering Hayward as our lure to try to sign Kemba.   

This is a swing-for-the-fences move that would have lasted just one season and left the franchise a wreck going forward.

Maybe or maybe not.  By eliminating a lot of the clutter it was far more likely that Irving liked playing here and stayed.  And Kawhi would have stayed in Toronto if they could have landed another star, here Boston would already have that star.  I think there is a better than 50% chance that both Irving and Leonard would have stayed (assuming they liked each other of course), but if not, oh well you have a title (or a final's appearance almost certainly) and you move on and build around Tatum.  Smart is a solid role player, but he isn't moving the needle.  Brown could be a solid all star player or he might not, either way he isn't a build around player.  It was worth the gamble, especially when your star is an odd duck and it is a walk year. 

And I pose this honestly, which way is the team better positioned to win a title, with a full rebuild or this half-assed crap Ainge has been doing for years?  I honestly think the team might be better off long term by not having Kemba on it and just going into full bore rebuild right now.  The goal is winning titles, the current team is destined for mediocrity unless Tatum hits, and if Tatum hits wouldn't it better to have more young potential stars to build around Tatum with and that better fit his timeline (and that isn't happening in the current state of mediocrity).

My fandom is simple, I want my team to be one of 3 things (in order of preference): (1) a legit contender; (2) a young team that clearly has the components to be a legit contender; or (3) in full bore rebuild/asset collection mode.  This current team is none of those things.  It is simply riding along in mediocrity.  They will almost certainly make the playoffs, but are far from a given of winning even one playoff series.  They could have everything go right and at best be the 3rd best team in the conference.  I can't see them falling out of the playoffs, but I wouldn't rule out the 8th seed and it is certainly possible given the poorly constructed roster and all of the moving parts is an epic fail and does miss the playoffs (again I don't think that is likely, but it wouldn't shock me either). 

At the end of the day Ainge has by and large failed since he made the Tatum/Fultz trade.  He failed in not pulling the trigger on Paul George.  He failed on not pulling the trigger on Jimmy Butler.  He failed on not pulling the trigger on Kawhi Leonard.  He failed on pulling the trigger on Irving and then not following that up by making the team a real contender (if he wasn't going to go all in around Irving, then he shouldn't have made that trade to begin with).   

your "elmination of clutter" is costing us 2 good young players for a 1-year rental.  that's a losing deal.  you're blatantly speculating on Kyrie staying to justify your deal when there's nothing suggesting he would have stayed knowing Kawhi was headed out of town.  there's also no guarantee that the dysfunction from last year disappears with that deal -- just more speculation on your part.

your perspective on the team being half-assed is plainly your opinion.  The Hayward injury screwed up Ainge's plans for a title.  no one could have foreseen that happening.  I'm not for a full tear-down at this point.  we've got good players, some with some upside still to be realized as well as some decent draftees and draft picks.   we're not dead in the water or middling as you claim.  we may not be contenders but the East really only has 2 teams that I'd say have more talent than the C's based on the current roster and if Hayward does improve for this season, the C's could very well win the conference with a shot in the finals. 

I don't disagree that I want the team to contend or at least be in the process of building to a contender but I think where we disagree is you see this current roster as failure whereas I'm not ready to dismiss this team's chances yet.  I certainly wouldn't have done an all-or-nothing trade that would have lasted one season before plunging the team into a more certain wheel of mediocrity for several years as it runs out the clock on Hayward's deal just hoping Tatum becomes what everyone hopes he can be.  your proposed trade targets of Kawhi, PG or Butler would have left us in all likelihood.  I'm not going to fault Ainge for not throwing away assets for 1-year rentals.

[NKY fan]

your "elmination of clutter" is costing us 2 good young players for a 1-year rental.  that's a losing deal.  you're blatantly speculating on Kyrie staying to justify your deal when there's nothing suggesting he would have stayed knowing Kawhi was headed out of town.  there's also no guarantee that the dysfunction from last year disappears with that deal -- just more speculation on your part.

your perspective on the team being half-assed is plainly your opinion.  The Hayward injury screwed up Ainge's plans for a title.  no one could have foreseen that happening.  I'm not for a full tear-down at this point.  we've got good players, some with some upside still to be realized as well as some decent draftees and draft picks.   we're not dead in the water or middling as you claim.  we may not be contenders but the East really only has 2 teams that I'd say have more talent than the C's based on the current roster and if Hayward does improve for this season, the C's could very well win the conference with a shot in the finals. 

I don't disagree that I want the team to contend or at least be in the process of building to a contender but I think where we disagree is you see this current roster as failure whereas I'm not ready to dismiss this team's chances yet.  I certainly wouldn't have done an all-or-nothing trade that would have lasted one season before plunging the team into a more certain wheel of mediocrity for several years as it runs out the clock on Hayward's deal just hoping Tatum becomes what everyone hopes he can be.  your proposed trade targets of Kawhi, PG or Butler would have left us in all likelihood.  I'm not going to fault Ainge for not throwing away assets for 1-year rentals.

I think you’re failing to see the shortcomings of Danny’s plan... yes we will be somewhat competitive... yes we might reach ECF with some luck or if Stevens get them to overachieve but that will be it.
With the prerogative to never lose a trade and always to have promising young players (overvalue them) .... we will always be in that same situation.
But what you’re failing to account for is that there will always be a more talented team on our way ... for 8 yrs it was lebrons ... then kawhi ... then will be giannis .... then will be embiid .... then in 2022-2028 will be someone yet to be drafted by lets say the wizards...
The nba is swing for the fences or rebuild .... what we have now is we can be proud of the Celtics manager that rarely takes bad decisions but since he will never overpay or swing for the fences he would never get to true contending status.
It’s interesting that when he did swing with the garnet and Allen trades he won...
his problem now is that superstar players don’t like his way of doing business and another garnet type of trade is not likely unless he overpays which he will never do and the fans don’t want him to overpay as well...
If he was a good drafter and evaluator Of talent in the 15-35 pick range he would be in a good position but he is not so he has to overpay via trades which he is refusing to do.