Author Topic: Brad Stevens tried to reinvent basketball. He's wrong.  (Read 14525 times)

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Re: Brad Stevens tried to reinvent basketball. He's wrong.
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2019, 01:17:06 PM »

Offline KG Living Legend

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Well, you can think or fabricate any sort of drama you want. Doesn't mean it has any credence to reality. No, Brad and Ainge are not at odds and no, Brad isn't on the hot seat. Plus if you think we have 5 legitimate big men on this team, we have very different definitions of "legitimate big men".



 In your opinion.

 Look I was all aboard the Brad Stevens hire, look like a great move he is a very smart coach, however the bottom line is he's not an alpha coach.

 He's shown no adaptability to play in the NBA he continues with the small ball theory from Butler he could not stand up to Kyrie Irving.

 He's a submissive coach to Alpha players. Which is expected of course from a submissive non alpha type coach.

Re: Brad Stevens tried to reinvent basketball. He's wrong.
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2019, 01:27:24 PM »

Offline Hoopvortex

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Well, you can think or fabricate any sort of drama you want. Doesn't mean it has any credence to reality. No, Brad and Ainge are not at odds and no, Brad isn't on the hot seat. Plus if you think we have 5 legitimate big men on this team, we have very different definitions of "legitimate big men".
well stated, so a tp for the post. CBS is not alone in seeing how the nba game is evolving over what it was not that long ago. the post above would seem to celebrate and support not learning and not adapting as a coaching philosophy.

also KGLL, please provide some links, evidence, support for you post. without those, your post doesn't really rise above the level of conjecture and a simple opinion.





 have you heard anybody else around the circles of the NBA talk so much about bigs, swings, ball-handlers, and wing's?

 No you have not that was created by Brad Stevens and reinforced by Brad Stevens it makes zero sense to this day and people around here wasted so much time talking about who's winning who's a big all this nonsense.

 the fact remains it's still the same game it has been all along a center a power forward a small forward a shooting guard and a point guard please don't reinvent that to me you just sound stupid.

Gotta love a curmudgeon!

It's not really the same game it has been all along. 

Just to pick a couple of things to represent a whole change in the rules philosophy: 1) The Defensive 3-second rule meant that the lane opened up for drivers; 2) The restrictions in hand-checking meant that good dribblers could get more open shots, and especially that it was easier to get to the rim. 

Well, obviously the defense could collapse to prevent those things, but that meant that shots opened up on the perimeter. This was tolerable for defenses - except that open three-point shots were worth almost as much as getting to the rim.

You can blame Don Nelson, who was one of the key people who spearheaded that fundamental change in philosophy, if you don't like the way that things have changed.  I have to say for myself that the more open game that resulted from the rules changes is a much better game - because it privileges skill and minimizes the risk of catastrophic injuries.
'I was proud of Marcus Smart. He did a great job of keeping us together. He might not get credit for this game, but the pace that he played at, and his playcalling, some of the plays that he called were great. We obviously have to rely on him, so I’m definitely looking forward to Marcus leading this team in that role.' - Jaylen Brown, January 2021

Re: Brad Stevens tried to reinvent basketball. He's wrong.
« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2019, 01:32:30 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Brad Stevens didn't even introduce small ball to the Celtics. People were screaming about Doc using small ball way, way, way too much going as far back as 2008 when he would often go with a Garnett/Posey/Pierce/Allen/Rondo lineup. Drove people here nuts.

Re: Brad Stevens tried to reinvent basketball. He's wrong.
« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2019, 01:46:44 PM »

Offline Silky

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A 3 wing lineup van work very well, imo, if you have the right bigman.

Remember svg system in orlando? 4 out 1 in with Howard as that bigman? Worked well defensively and with better wing talent it could have worked better

Having tatum at pf for example would he completly fine with a center athletic ebough and strong enough to compensate. I believe Williams gets there...but he isnt yet.

I also believe that you can make it work at about 80% with tremendous wing defense.

So I think that either Kanter or Poirer can allow Tatum to play the pf spot as long as smart and brown are in the same lineup to prevent wing blowbys.

Expecting Kanter to anchor the defense as the lone big man is asking for all sorts of trouble.  By just about every measure Kanter was one of the absolute worst defensive players among bigs over the last few seasons.

I dont think he can anchor it at all

And the only way it might work is if brown and smart are both in the lineup. Their man to man defense might be enough to prevent kanter from having to come help amd instead would only have to worry about his man only.

Re: Brad Stevens tried to reinvent basketball. He's wrong.
« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2019, 01:56:15 PM »

Offline greg683x

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until last season the team had improved EVERY year hes been here, culminating with him mking the ECF two years in a row. 

yet he has ONE, ONE! bad year and all of a sudden he has shown no adaptability to the NBA.

He hasnt had a reason to adapt to anything until this offseason and you want to declare his job in jeopardy before he can even show how he fires back?

What coach are you gonna hire thats gonna be able to raise the bar from 1 disappointing season out of 6?
Greg

Re: Brad Stevens tried to reinvent basketball. He's wrong.
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2019, 02:15:22 PM »

Offline RPGenerate

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Well, you can think or fabricate any sort of drama you want. Doesn't mean it has any credence to reality. No, Brad and Ainge are not at odds and no, Brad isn't on the hot seat. Plus if you think we have 5 legitimate big men on this team, we have very different definitions of "legitimate big men".



 In your opinion.

 Look I was all aboard the Brad Stevens hire, look like a great move he is a very smart coach, however the bottom line is he's not an alpha coach.

 He's shown no adaptability to play in the NBA he continues with the small ball theory from Butler he could not stand up to Kyrie Irving.

 He's a submissive coach to Alpha players. Which is expected of course from a submissive non alpha type coach.
There's no "in your opinion" about it. There's absolutely no proof that there is any friction whatsoever between Brad and Danny. Everything you've said so far is pure conjecture.
2023 No Top 75 Fantasy Draft Los Angeles Clippers
PG: Dennis Johnson / Jo Jo White / Stephon Marbury
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C: Ben Wallace / Andrew Bynum

Re: Brad Stevens tried to reinvent basketball. He's wrong.
« Reply #21 on: July 28, 2019, 02:17:33 PM »

Offline Hoopvortex

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until last season the team had improved EVERY year hes been here, culminating with him mking the ECF two years in a row. 

yet he has ONE, ONE! bad year and all of a sudden he has shown no adaptability to the NBA.

He hasnt had a reason to adapt to anything until this offseason and you want to declare his job in jeopardy before he can even show how he fires back?

What coach are you gonna hire thats gonna be able to raise the bar from 1 disappointing season out of 6?

It was a disappointing season only because of the expectations. This is recognized by the Celtics brass:

Quote
Team executive on Stevens’ future in Boston: “Until he tells us otherwise, we plan to have him coaching the Celtics. Last year wasn’t on Brad, even if he’ll tell you it was all on him. It was on all of us. And somehow we still almost won 50 games and won a playoff series. If anything, he coached us to that level.”
'I was proud of Marcus Smart. He did a great job of keeping us together. He might not get credit for this game, but the pace that he played at, and his playcalling, some of the plays that he called were great. We obviously have to rely on him, so I’m definitely looking forward to Marcus leading this team in that role.' - Jaylen Brown, January 2021

Re: Brad Stevens tried to reinvent basketball. He's wrong.
« Reply #22 on: July 28, 2019, 02:19:41 PM »

Offline W8ting2McHale

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“ the fact remains it's still the same game it has been all along a center a power forward a small forward a shooting guard and a point guard please don't reinvent that to me you just sound stupid.”

The same game it’s always been. Are you sure about that?

The earliest basketball games played in 1891-2 in Springfield Massachusetts consisted of two teams of 9 players, just like baseball. They shot the ball into a Peach basket. It’s still done that way, tradition, you know.

Too far back? In the 1920s professional basketball took hold. My grandfather played professionally from 1921-29. He was a center at 6’2” and was legendary for never loosing a jump ball. That is significant because back then it was a “Make it Take it” league. There was a jump ball after every score and it was at the scoring teams end of the court, so if you scored and won the jump after, the ball was always on your side. That hasn’t changed though, same as it ever was.

The Great Depression took the wind out of the early professional leagues sails and it wasn’t until 1948 that the NBA was formed. The best shooters scored with a “set shot” and the best play makers could dribble with either hand! The first African American player came into the league in 1950 with Bob Cousy, the “Houdini of the Hardcourt” his name was Chuck Cooper. To this day there are hardly any African Americans playing professionally.

All that is ancient history? Remember back when dunking and 3 point shots didn’t exist? Dunking was not gentlemanly and an unseemly activity for a true sportsman and shooting 25’ from the was “chucking the ball” and got you no more than 2 points. Those were the days! It’s sad that the game has become so corrupt and boring!

Dinosaurs walked the earth back then?!? They didn’t even count blocked shots! Every team had a 7’ stiff that would camp in the paint! What the heck happened?!?

Now we have shot clocks, 3 second rules, guys can actually run and jump. The best of those guys. The most athletic and talented, generally range from 6’4” to 6’ 9” and most of the 7’ stiffs just aren’t capable of stopping them, they get run off the court. Bully basketball under the rim has been replaced. Is that the game you mean? The one that never changes? Asking for a friend.

Re: Brad Stevens tried to reinvent basketball. He's wrong.
« Reply #23 on: July 28, 2019, 02:22:23 PM »

Offline Hoopvortex

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Well, you can think or fabricate any sort of drama you want. Doesn't mean it has any credence to reality. No, Brad and Ainge are not at odds and no, Brad isn't on the hot seat. Plus if you think we have 5 legitimate big men on this team, we have very different definitions of "legitimate big men".

 He's shown no adaptability to play in the NBA he continues with the small ball theory from Butler he could not stand up to Kyrie Irving.

 He's a submissive coach to Alpha players. Which is expected of course from a submissive non alpha type coach.

Woah, what?!

Where did you get this “submissive” thing? That’s weird, man.
'I was proud of Marcus Smart. He did a great job of keeping us together. He might not get credit for this game, but the pace that he played at, and his playcalling, some of the plays that he called were great. We obviously have to rely on him, so I’m definitely looking forward to Marcus leading this team in that role.' - Jaylen Brown, January 2021

Re: Brad Stevens tried to reinvent basketball. He's wrong.
« Reply #24 on: July 28, 2019, 02:26:15 PM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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Coach Brad Stevens is not only a quality coach but would easily find a job around most of this league, IMO.

We can't fault him for tailoring this team towards the once Juggernaut Golden State Warriors....

In a HEALTHY scenario - I think we would've matched up WELL with them - both last season and the one before that - with BOTH GH and Kyrie healthy....and with Big Al onboard...

Oh well...could've should've would've.....I almost feel like this team is ONCE AGAIN reliving the KG-injured years....

For the last several years we (and most of the contenders in this league) have been gearing their squads towards GSW...don't think for a min that even the Lakers would've passed on Cousins and had AD playing Center (IF GSW was still intact, with Durant)...

I'm glad Coach Stevens is our man. Stand by him, Danny.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwBirf4BWew ;D :)

Re: Brad Stevens tried to reinvent basketball. He's wrong.
« Reply #25 on: July 28, 2019, 02:28:09 PM »

Offline Hoopvortex

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“ the fact remains it's still the same game it has been all along a center a power forward a small forward a shooting guard and a point guard please don't reinvent that to me you just sound stupid.”

The same game it’s always been. Are you sure about that?

The earliest basketball games played in 1891-2 in Springfield Massachusetts consisted of two teams of 9 players, just like baseball. They shot the ball into a Peach basket. It’s still done that way, tradition, you know.

Too far back? In the 1920s professional basketball took hold. My grandfather played professionally from 1921-29. He was a center at 6’2” and was legendary for never loosing a jump ball. That is significant because back then it was a “Make it Take it” league. There was a jump ball after every score and it was at the scoring teams end of the court, so if you scored and won the jump after, the ball was always on your side. That hasn’t changed though, same as it ever was.

The Great Depression took the wind out of the early professional leagues sails and it wasn’t until 1948 that the NBA was formed. The best shooters scored with a “set shot” and the best play makers could dribble with either hand! The first African American player came into the league in 1950 with Bob Cousy, the “Houdini of the Hardcourt” his name was Chuck Cooper. To this day there are hardly any African Americans playing professionally.

All that is ancient history? Remember back when dunking and 3 point shots didn’t exist? Dunking was not gentlemanly and an unseemly activity for a true sportsman and shooting 25’ from the was “chucking the ball” and got you no more than 2 points. Those were the days! It’s sad that the game has become so corrupt and boring!

Dinosaurs walked the earth back then?!? They didn’t even count blocked shots! Every team had a 7’ stiff that would camp in the paint! What the heck happened?!?

Now we have shot clocks, 3 second rules, guys can actually run and jump. The best of those guys. The most athletic and talented, generally range from 6’4” to 6’ 9” and most of the 7’ stiffs just aren’t capable of stopping them, they get run off the court. Bully basketball under the rim has been replaced. Is that the game you mean? The one that never changes? Asking for a friend.

Imagining Kareem and Chief bellowing at each other across a primeval swamp...

“Asking for a friend” lol
'I was proud of Marcus Smart. He did a great job of keeping us together. He might not get credit for this game, but the pace that he played at, and his playcalling, some of the plays that he called were great. We obviously have to rely on him, so I’m definitely looking forward to Marcus leading this team in that role.' - Jaylen Brown, January 2021

Re: Brad Stevens tried to reinvent basketball. He's wrong.
« Reply #26 on: July 28, 2019, 04:02:43 PM »

Offline Ogaju

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basketball is still a big  man's game. Play big or go home!!

Re: Brad Stevens tried to reinvent basketball. He's wrong.
« Reply #27 on: July 28, 2019, 04:08:52 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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It's strange to me that you think Brad invented any of that.  That's been the trend in the NBA for the last 5-8 years.

The thread could have ended here.


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Re: Brad Stevens tried to reinvent basketball. He's wrong.
« Reply #28 on: July 28, 2019, 04:35:35 PM »

Offline BitterJim

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I'll say I don't like Brad's coaching style nor his offensive philosophy.  I'm not sure he's actually cut out to lead a team to great success.  Sure, he can get a team to over-achieve to a certain point, but there are serious red flags about his ability to lead multiple stars.  He also seems a bit inflexible in adapting to the talent he has, and at times tries to force the proverbial 'round peg in square hole'.

But Brad certainly did not invent small-ball.  He does cling to it a bit too much, though.  That's partly Ainge's fault for not getting this team some better size, but Brad hasn't always best utilized the size he has been given, either.  I do agree that Brad should be on the hot seat, but I'm not sure he actually is.

Do you have any examples of that? It certainly seems like he's done a great job of changing the system based on talent (having Horford as a high-post distributor, giving IT everything he needed to have one of the best scoring seasons ever, playing to Kyrie's strengths with with more iso, etc.)

He's not going to build a system around role players (or late first rounders that may be role players in a few years if they improve a lot), and he'll ask role players to adapt/expand their game to fit better, but that's really what you want with role players. You don't create an entire second offense for the 10 mpg that a min-contract-level-guy plays, you either get someone else that fits the system better or ask them to adapt.

Having the team continually jack up threes when they were off in a given game was one glaring mistake.  It's like he had no other pitch beside his fastball.  Also, not using Horford more as a 4 was another big mistake.  He had three wings with egos to satisfy, which is Ainge's fault, but I felt he didn't adapt well to it at all.  He totally mishandled the Hayward situation.

Stevens failed miserably last year.  He could get the team to meet expectations.  That's a big warning sign, to me.

If your shooters aren't super streaky (Smart is, but most of our other guys are not), then abandoning the best strategy based on things not breaking your way is a bad idea (and that's ignoring that perimeter shots not going in means defenses will pack the paint more, making it harder to score inside). The change that we needed in that case was going to the hole and finishing through contact or getting to the line, but we had no one that was capable of doing that consistently. I'm hoping that Tatum and Brown are able to this year (Kemba also gets to the line more than Kyrie, which is an improvement), but if no one on the team is capable of it then I wouldn't blame Brad for having guys take the open shots instead of going inside and getting destroyed there

As for Horford playing the 4 less, there was just no one else to play the 5 for a lot of the year. Baynes was struggling with injuries, which left the only available options as... Theis and Timelord? Neither was a good option, and neither had a better effete on the game than going to small ball with Horford at the 5

Did Stevens have some effect on the roster construction that led to those issues? Yes, I'm sure he did. But he wasn't 100% responsible for the team's struggles, and a change in philosophy would only have changed what people complained about (like if he played Horford next to Timelord/Theis more, it would be not working with what he had available rather than going small too often, or if he had guys going to the rim just for them to get stopped it would be for not enough ball movement, etc.)

The fact is that last year's team was not as good as we thought they were gonna be. No amount of coaching was gonna fix the two (in my opinion) biggest issues: getting to the rim to finish through contact/get to the line, and big man depth for when Baynes was hurt
I'm bitter.

Re: Brad Stevens tried to reinvent basketball. He's wrong.
« Reply #29 on: July 28, 2019, 05:37:32 PM »

Offline Hoopvortex

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A 3 wing lineup van work very well, imo, if you have the right bigman.

Remember svg system in orlando? 4 out 1 in with Howard as that bigman? Worked well defensively and with better wing talent it could have worked better

Having tatum at pf for example would he completly fine with a center athletic ebough and strong enough to compensate. I believe Williams gets there...but he isnt yet.

I also believe that you can make it work at about 80% with tremendous wing defense.

So I think that either Kanter or Poirer can allow Tatum to play the pf spot as long as smart and brown are in the same lineup to prevent wing blowbys.

Expecting Kanter to anchor the defense as the lone big man is asking for all sorts of trouble.  By just about every measure Kanter was one of the absolute worst defensive players among bigs over the last few seasons.

I dont think he can anchor it at all

And the only way it might work is if brown and smart are both in the lineup. Their man to man defense might be enough to prevent kanter from having to come help amd instead would only have to worry about his man only.

I think that you’re arguing that Hayward should come off the bench?

I’m pretty sure that I don’t know the answer to the 6th-Man dilemma, but it wouldn’t surprise me if the coaching staff thought along the same line as you.

The problem is when opponents put Kanter in a pnr and HE needs help.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2019, 05:58:35 PM by Hoopvortex »
'I was proud of Marcus Smart. He did a great job of keeping us together. He might not get credit for this game, but the pace that he played at, and his playcalling, some of the plays that he called were great. We obviously have to rely on him, so I’m definitely looking forward to Marcus leading this team in that role.' - Jaylen Brown, January 2021