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Author Topic: Could Horford end up being the worst contract of offseason?  (Read 46622 times)

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Re: Could Horford end up being the worst contract of offseason?
« Reply #420 on: February 23, 2020, 04:30:48 AM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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I think Horford was mainly signed to spite The Celtics. It wasn't a well thought out move.

thats been my thought ,  i think they thought he was a roadblock for their team movimg forward,  getting him would rid them of his peesky play for the Celtics and take us down a notch all in one stroke. Plus give them a backup for Embiid.  Kill several birds with one stone.  Philly under estimated Celtics and Raptors teams after losing their stars .

I thought i heard one announcer comment that Horford was or has been "dragging " a bad leg .   I never heard any more in depth comment about an injury to Al though.

Re: Could Horford end up being the worst contract of offseason?
« Reply #421 on: February 23, 2020, 07:53:03 AM »

Offline Fierce1

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I know some people may roll their eyes reading this since he's a Sixers player now. But I have to imagine Horford has some lingering injury and he's playing hurt. I mean, I can't imagine his entire game just died in one offseason.

Yes, he doesn't seem to fit well there to begin with and is simply "Embiid insurance", but I think he's still a productive player that just is out of sync lately.

I will say this though. He's not the only Sixers problem. Tobias Harris seems to disappear against great teams a lot and tonight was another example. And he's making 180M over the next 5 years. Middleton is actually worth the similar extension he signed and he's proving it. Harris, not so much.

Horford was already on the decline when he was with the Celts.

I'm not surprised that this is happening to Horford.
He wasn't really at all. His best year ever in terms of efficiency, his second best in terms of total rebound %, best in terms of shot-blocking percentage, and his best scoring per-minute year as a Celtic. He just played less because we had 10 guys routinely getting 15+ MPG, two of them being Baynes and Theis.

Celts were paying Horford 28m per year.

His production with the Celts does not justify the contract he got.

Even when Horford was just averaging 30.5 minutes per game with the Hawks, in 2014-15, Horford still managed to average 15.2 ppg.

With the Celts, Horford's best was 14.0 ppg.

Horford was a max player signing in the summer of 2016.
He didn't play like a max player in his 3 seasons with the Cs.

Re: Could Horford end up being the worst contract of offseason?
« Reply #422 on: February 23, 2020, 08:15:18 AM »

Offline jambr380

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I know some people may roll their eyes reading this since he's a Sixers player now. But I have to imagine Horford has some lingering injury and he's playing hurt. I mean, I can't imagine his entire game just died in one offseason.

Yes, he doesn't seem to fit well there to begin with and is simply "Embiid insurance", but I think he's still a productive player that just is out of sync lately.

I will say this though. He's not the only Sixers problem. Tobias Harris seems to disappear against great teams a lot and tonight was another example. And he's making 180M over the next 5 years. Middleton is actually worth the similar extension he signed and he's proving it. Harris, not so much.

Horford was already on the decline when he was with the Celts.

I'm not surprised that this is happening to Horford.
He wasn't really at all. His best year ever in terms of efficiency, his second best in terms of total rebound %, best in terms of shot-blocking percentage, and his best scoring per-minute year as a Celtic. He just played less because we had 10 guys routinely getting 15+ MPG, two of them being Baynes and Theis.

Celts were paying Horford 28m per year.

His production with the Celts does not justify the contract he got.

Even when Horford was just averaging 30.5 minutes per game with the Hawks, in 2014-15, Horford still managed to average 15.2 ppg.

With the Celts, Horford's best was 14.0 ppg.

Horford was a max player signing in the summer of 2016.
He didn't play like a max player in his 3 seasons with the Cs.

Horford was just what the Cs needed when they signed him; just like IT was. The Cs were able to maximize those two players to the best of their abilities due to system fit and necessity. IT's career obviously has derailed due to injury, but even with no injury, it would be unwise to ever have expected him to be the best player and All-NBA 2nd teamer on an ECF team ever again.

The same can be said for Al. He fit the Cs/Brad's system so well and was often the center-point of both the offense and defense. I would have expected Al to have more of an impact than he has in Philly, but it shouldn't come as a huge surprise that he isn't totally fitting in; they already have other All-Stars and max players. I do think that he will continue to try to find his place and provide what is needed. I am not going to assume Al has totally fallen off a cliff in terms of ability and athleticism - it's not like he was ever the most athletic player anyway.

Re: Could Horford end up being the worst contract of offseason?
« Reply #423 on: February 23, 2020, 08:28:05 AM »

Offline gouki88

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I know some people may roll their eyes reading this since he's a Sixers player now. But I have to imagine Horford has some lingering injury and he's playing hurt. I mean, I can't imagine his entire game just died in one offseason.

Yes, he doesn't seem to fit well there to begin with and is simply "Embiid insurance", but I think he's still a productive player that just is out of sync lately.

I will say this though. He's not the only Sixers problem. Tobias Harris seems to disappear against great teams a lot and tonight was another example. And he's making 180M over the next 5 years. Middleton is actually worth the similar extension he signed and he's proving it. Harris, not so much.

Horford was already on the decline when he was with the Celts.

I'm not surprised that this is happening to Horford.
He wasn't really at all. His best year ever in terms of efficiency, his second best in terms of total rebound %, best in terms of shot-blocking percentage, and his best scoring per-minute year as a Celtic. He just played less because we had 10 guys routinely getting 15+ MPG, two of them being Baynes and Theis.

Celts were paying Horford 28m per year.

His production with the Celts does not justify the contract he got.

Even when Horford was just averaging 30.5 minutes per game with the Hawks, in 2014-15, Horford still managed to average 15.2 ppg.

With the Celts, Horford's best was 14.0 ppg.

Horford was a max player signing in the summer of 2016.
He didn't play like a max player in his 3 seasons with the Cs.
Ah, the good old nonsense about PPG determining whether or not a player is worth a max contract. Rudy Gobert has never averaged over 16PPG - is he not worth his contract?
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Re: Could Horford end up being the worst contract of offseason?
« Reply #424 on: February 23, 2020, 09:57:00 AM »

Offline Moranis

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I know some people may roll their eyes reading this since he's a Sixers player now. But I have to imagine Horford has some lingering injury and he's playing hurt. I mean, I can't imagine his entire game just died in one offseason.

Yes, he doesn't seem to fit well there to begin with and is simply "Embiid insurance", but I think he's still a productive player that just is out of sync lately.

I will say this though. He's not the only Sixers problem. Tobias Harris seems to disappear against great teams a lot and tonight was another example. And he's making 180M over the next 5 years. Middleton is actually worth the similar extension he signed and he's proving it. Harris, not so much.

Horford was already on the decline when he was with the Celts.

I'm not surprised that this is happening to Horford.
He wasn't really at all. His best year ever in terms of efficiency, his second best in terms of total rebound %, best in terms of shot-blocking percentage, and his best scoring per-minute year as a Celtic. He just played less because we had 10 guys routinely getting 15+ MPG, two of them being Baynes and Theis.

Celts were paying Horford 28m per year.

His production with the Celts does not justify the contract he got.

Even when Horford was just averaging 30.5 minutes per game with the Hawks, in 2014-15, Horford still managed to average 15.2 ppg.

With the Celts, Horford's best was 14.0 ppg.

Horford was a max player signing in the summer of 2016.
He didn't play like a max player in his 3 seasons with the Cs.
Ah, the good old nonsense about PPG determining whether or not a player is worth a max contract. Rudy Gobert has never averaged over 16PPG - is he not worth his contract?
Horford was never worth the contract once Durant didn't come.  Horford would have been fine with Durant, but he was never worth the contract the C's gave him because they didn't have a #1 in place and they needed the #1 in place to make Horford worthwhile (it is why Brooklyn will never regret signing Irving because without Irving they don't get Durant).  And by signing Horford to that massive contract, Boston didn't have the flexibility it really could have used going forward.  Having Horford on the books cost the C's Paul George, for example.  How much different are the last few seasons if Ainge had traded Crowder, Smart, and the pick that became R. Williams for Paul George, not made the Bradley for Morris trade, then still signed Hayward in free agency and then instead of Crowder just used Bradley so Thomas, Bradley, Zizic, and the pick that became Sexton for Irving.  I'm guessing that first season George, Hayward, Irving, Brown, Tatum, Rozier, etc. get by the Cavs and make the Finals, and who knows what last year might have been with that same grouping (assuming PG liked the team and stayed much like he did in OKC).   
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Re: Could Horford end up being the worst contract of offseason?
« Reply #425 on: February 23, 2020, 10:01:25 AM »

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I know some people may roll their eyes reading this since he's a Sixers player now. But I have to imagine Horford has some lingering injury and he's playing hurt. I mean, I can't imagine his entire game just died in one offseason.

Yes, he doesn't seem to fit well there to begin with and is simply "Embiid insurance", but I think he's still a productive player that just is out of sync lately.

I will say this though. He's not the only Sixers problem. Tobias Harris seems to disappear against great teams a lot and tonight was another example. And he's making 180M over the next 5 years. Middleton is actually worth the similar extension he signed and he's proving it. Harris, not so much.

Horford was already on the decline when he was with the Celts.

I'm not surprised that this is happening to Horford.
He wasn't really at all. His best year ever in terms of efficiency, his second best in terms of total rebound %, best in terms of shot-blocking percentage, and his best scoring per-minute year as a Celtic. He just played less because we had 10 guys routinely getting 15+ MPG, two of them being Baynes and Theis.

Celts were paying Horford 28m per year.

His production with the Celts does not justify the contract he got.

Even when Horford was just averaging 30.5 minutes per game with the Hawks, in 2014-15, Horford still managed to average 15.2 ppg.

With the Celts, Horford's best was 14.0 ppg.

Horford was a max player signing in the summer of 2016.
He didn't play like a max player in his 3 seasons with the Cs.
Ah, the good old nonsense about PPG determining whether or not a player is worth a max contract. Rudy Gobert has never averaged over 16PPG - is he not worth his contract?
Hey everyone and their mum would take the offensive "beast" like Kyrie Irving over a defensive specialist in Gobert! Dominant defensive anchors so easily replaceable by role players! ;)
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Re: Could Horford end up being the worst contract of offseason?
« Reply #426 on: February 23, 2020, 12:18:30 PM »

Offline obnoxiousmime

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I don't now how much you can fault them for taking a risk. They tried to get a closer by dealing for Butler, but it didn't work out because he wanted his own team. Still, they went for it with him just like they went for it by signing Horford.

It would have been really easy for them to just continue slowly with Embiid and Simmons and not take any chances, win 50 games and make the playoffs each year, but they tried to be aggressive. The problem continues to be Embiid and Simmons just don't mesh perfectly and they loss their shooting depth. That issue really has nothing to do with Horford though I'm sure they were hoping he could stretch the defense a little more while playing with Embiid. He's just not having an easy time converting to an outside player even though a lesser workload outside was one of his motivations for going there.

I think they regret the deal overall but "worst contract of the offseason" is probably a little harsh. If they want to get off the deal I'm sure it would not be impossible to trade because Horford is still a useful, healthy established vet with a unique set of skills. Even if he's overpaid now and past his prime, there just aren't many players in the league like him.
Yo pretty boy. I looked up basketball player in the dictionary and it said 'Not you!'

Re: Could Horford end up being the worst contract of offseason?
« Reply #427 on: February 23, 2020, 10:01:47 PM »

Offline Moranis

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I don't now how much you can fault them for taking a risk. They tried to get a closer by dealing for Butler, but it didn't work out because he wanted his own team. Still, they went for it with him just like they went for it by signing Horford.

It would have been really easy for them to just continue slowly with Embiid and Simmons and not take any chances, win 50 games and make the playoffs each year, but they tried to be aggressive. The problem continues to be Embiid and Simmons just don't mesh perfectly and they loss their shooting depth. That issue really has nothing to do with Horford though I'm sure they were hoping he could stretch the defense a little more while playing with Embiid. He's just not having an easy time converting to an outside player even though a lesser workload outside was one of his motivations for going there.

I think they regret the deal overall but "worst contract of the offseason" is probably a little harsh. If they want to get off the deal I'm sure it would not be impossible to trade because Horford is still a useful, healthy established vet with a unique set of skills. Even if he's overpaid now and past his prime, there just aren't many players in the league like him.
2 years ago Embiid and Simmons were the best duo in the entire sport (of duos with at least 1000 minutes), but the team was catered around them.  They have upgraded in name and talent, but not in fit and that will be their downfall (if they underwhelm again).  That is what happens when you have Colangelo and Brand (and Brown) making decisions.  You end up with crappy decisions.

Here is a pretty good article discussing it.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/beatsow28738387/the-sixers-definitely-ben-simmons-joel-embiid-problem
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Re: Could Horford end up being the worst contract of offseason?
« Reply #428 on: February 23, 2020, 11:17:30 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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I don't now how much you can fault them for taking a risk. They tried to get a closer by dealing for Butler, but it didn't work out because he wanted his own team. Still, they went for it with him just like they went for it by signing Horford.

It would have been really easy for them to just continue slowly with Embiid and Simmons and not take any chances, win 50 games and make the playoffs each year, but they tried to be aggressive. The problem continues to be Embiid and Simmons just don't mesh perfectly and they loss their shooting depth. That issue really has nothing to do with Horford though I'm sure they were hoping he could stretch the defense a little more while playing with Embiid. He's just not having an easy time converting to an outside player even though a lesser workload outside was one of his motivations for going there.

I think they regret the deal overall but "worst contract of the offseason" is probably a little harsh. If they want to get off the deal I'm sure it would not be impossible to trade because Horford is still a useful, healthy established vet with a unique set of skills. Even if he's overpaid now and past his prime, there just aren't many players in the league like him.

Its literally a horrible contract and they cant get off it without attaching firsts or prospects. How do people think useful player equals 90 million committed? He looks like absolute crap

Re: Could Horford end up being the worst contract of offseason?
« Reply #429 on: February 24, 2020, 02:27:44 AM »

Offline Fierce1

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I know some people may roll their eyes reading this since he's a Sixers player now. But I have to imagine Horford has some lingering injury and he's playing hurt. I mean, I can't imagine his entire game just died in one offseason.

Yes, he doesn't seem to fit well there to begin with and is simply "Embiid insurance", but I think he's still a productive player that just is out of sync lately.

I will say this though. He's not the only Sixers problem. Tobias Harris seems to disappear against great teams a lot and tonight was another example. And he's making 180M over the next 5 years. Middleton is actually worth the similar extension he signed and he's proving it. Harris, not so much.

Horford was already on the decline when he was with the Celts.

I'm not surprised that this is happening to Horford.
He wasn't really at all. His best year ever in terms of efficiency, his second best in terms of total rebound %, best in terms of shot-blocking percentage, and his best scoring per-minute year as a Celtic. He just played less because we had 10 guys routinely getting 15+ MPG, two of them being Baynes and Theis.

Celts were paying Horford 28m per year.

His production with the Celts does not justify the contract he got.

Even when Horford was just averaging 30.5 minutes per game with the Hawks, in 2014-15, Horford still managed to average 15.2 ppg.

With the Celts, Horford's best was 14.0 ppg.

Horford was a max player signing in the summer of 2016.
He didn't play like a max player in his 3 seasons with the Cs.
Ah, the good old nonsense about PPG determining whether or not a player is worth a max contract. Rudy Gobert has never averaged over 16PPG - is he not worth his contract?

Just compare the achievements of Gobert and Horford.

Here:

Gobert

NBA All-Star (2020)
2 NBA Defensive Player of the Year (2018, 2019)
All-NBA Second Team (2017)
All-NBA Third Team (2019)
3 NBA All-Defensive First Team (20172019)
NBA blocks leader (2017)
French Player of the Year (2019)

Horford

5 NBA All-Star (2010, 2011, 2015, 2016, 2018)
All-NBA Third Team (2011)
NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2018)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (2008)
2 NCAA champion (2006, 2007)
Second-team All-American NABC (2007)
Third-team All-American AP (2007)
SEC Tournament MVP (2007)

The Jazz gave Gobert 102m for 4 years because Gobert is like a Mutombo.

The Celts were forced to give Horford 28m per year because they also wanted to sign KD that summer.

Would the Celts have given Horford that much money if they knew in advance that KD would go to GSW?

Also look at the stats of Gobert and Horford after they signed huge contracts in the summer of 2016.
Gobert has had better numbers than Horford since 2016-17.
And Gobert got 25.5m per year compared to Horford's 28.25m per year.

Re: Could Horford end up being the worst contract of offseason?
« Reply #430 on: February 24, 2020, 03:28:38 AM »

Offline obnoxiousmime

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I don't now how much you can fault them for taking a risk. They tried to get a closer by dealing for Butler, but it didn't work out because he wanted his own team. Still, they went for it with him just like they went for it by signing Horford.

It would have been really easy for them to just continue slowly with Embiid and Simmons and not take any chances, win 50 games and make the playoffs each year, but they tried to be aggressive. The problem continues to be Embiid and Simmons just don't mesh perfectly and they loss their shooting depth. That issue really has nothing to do with Horford though I'm sure they were hoping he could stretch the defense a little more while playing with Embiid. He's just not having an easy time converting to an outside player even though a lesser workload outside was one of his motivations for going there.

I think they regret the deal overall but "worst contract of the offseason" is probably a little harsh. If they want to get off the deal I'm sure it would not be impossible to trade because Horford is still a useful, healthy established vet with a unique set of skills. Even if he's overpaid now and past his prime, there just aren't many players in the league like him.
2 years ago Embiid and Simmons were the best duo in the entire sport (of duos with at least 1000 minutes), but the team was catered around them.  They have upgraded in name and talent, but not in fit and that will be their downfall (if they underwhelm again).  That is what happens when you have Colangelo and Brand (and Brown) making decisions.  You end up with crappy decisions.

Here is a pretty good article discussing it.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/beatsow28738387/the-sixers-definitely-ben-simmons-joel-embiid-problem

I don't know how I became a defender of the Sixers front office because I agree that they haven't done a good job the last few years. I've always been a proponent of splitting up Simmons and Embiid once it became clear Simmons just can't/won't shoot and Embiid just won't get serious about conditioning and continues to need a lot of load management. I guess they're going to give it this one final shot and then probably deal Embiid this offseason, but I actually would have done it earlier.

All I'm saying is, I don't think Horford's deal is an unmoveable albatross. They had to spend their salary cap space and I'm not sure who else was available and eager to sign there at the time.

I don't now how much you can fault them for taking a risk. They tried to get a closer by dealing for Butler, but it didn't work out because he wanted his own team. Still, they went for it with him just like they went for it by signing Horford.

It would have been really easy for them to just continue slowly with Embiid and Simmons and not take any chances, win 50 games and make the playoffs each year, but they tried to be aggressive. The problem continues to be Embiid and Simmons just don't mesh perfectly and they loss their shooting depth. That issue really has nothing to do with Horford though I'm sure they were hoping he could stretch the defense a little more while playing with Embiid. He's just not having an easy time converting to an outside player even though a lesser workload outside was one of his motivations for going there.

I think they regret the deal overall but "worst contract of the offseason" is probably a little harsh. If they want to get off the deal I'm sure it would not be impossible to trade because Horford is still a useful, healthy established vet with a unique set of skills. Even if he's overpaid now and past his prime, there just aren't many players in the league like him.

Its literally a horrible contract and they cant get off it without attaching firsts or prospects. How do people think useful player equals 90 million committed? He looks like absolute crap

I guess I just disagree. I think a team that wants to win in the next two years and isn't as concerned about the long term cost would be willing to deal for him. Especially this offseason when there will not be a strong FA market, a team might see Horford as an asset, and you don't need to sign him for 4 years like the other FAs will demand. After this season, he will be owed at least 68.5 for 2.5 seasons (since the last season is half guaranteed, he can be bought out for 14.5.
Yo pretty boy. I looked up basketball player in the dictionary and it said 'Not you!'

Re: Could Horford end up being the worst contract of offseason?
« Reply #431 on: February 24, 2020, 08:08:54 AM »

Offline gouki88

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I know some people may roll their eyes reading this since he's a Sixers player now. But I have to imagine Horford has some lingering injury and he's playing hurt. I mean, I can't imagine his entire game just died in one offseason.

Yes, he doesn't seem to fit well there to begin with and is simply "Embiid insurance", but I think he's still a productive player that just is out of sync lately.

I will say this though. He's not the only Sixers problem. Tobias Harris seems to disappear against great teams a lot and tonight was another example. And he's making 180M over the next 5 years. Middleton is actually worth the similar extension he signed and he's proving it. Harris, not so much.

Horford was already on the decline when he was with the Celts.

I'm not surprised that this is happening to Horford.
He wasn't really at all. His best year ever in terms of efficiency, his second best in terms of total rebound %, best in terms of shot-blocking percentage, and his best scoring per-minute year as a Celtic. He just played less because we had 10 guys routinely getting 15+ MPG, two of them being Baynes and Theis.

Celts were paying Horford 28m per year.

His production with the Celts does not justify the contract he got.

Even when Horford was just averaging 30.5 minutes per game with the Hawks, in 2014-15, Horford still managed to average 15.2 ppg.

With the Celts, Horford's best was 14.0 ppg.

Horford was a max player signing in the summer of 2016.
He didn't play like a max player in his 3 seasons with the Cs.
Ah, the good old nonsense about PPG determining whether or not a player is worth a max contract. Rudy Gobert has never averaged over 16PPG - is he not worth his contract?

Just compare the achievements of Gobert and Horford.

Here:

Gobert

NBA All-Star (2020)
2 NBA Defensive Player of the Year (2018, 2019)
All-NBA Second Team (2017)
All-NBA Third Team (2019)
3 NBA All-Defensive First Team (20172019)
NBA blocks leader (2017)
French Player of the Year (2019)

Horford

5 NBA All-Star (2010, 2011, 2015, 2016, 2018)
All-NBA Third Team (2011)
NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2018)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (2008)
2 NCAA champion (2006, 2007)
Second-team All-American NABC (2007)
Third-team All-American AP (2007)
SEC Tournament MVP (2007)

The Jazz gave Gobert 102m for 4 years because Gobert is like a Mutombo.

The Celts were forced to give Horford 28m per year because they also wanted to sign KD that summer.

Would the Celts have given Horford that much money if they knew in advance that KD would go to GSW?

Also look at the stats of Gobert and Horford after they signed huge contracts in the summer of 2016.
Gobert has had better numbers than Horford since 2016-17.
And Gobert got 25.5m per year compared to Horford's 28.25m per year.
Your ability to intentionally miss the point is amazing. Remember why I don't engage with you now
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C: Joakim Noah / Andrew Bynum / David Lee

Re: Could Horford end up being the worst contract of offseason?
« Reply #432 on: February 24, 2020, 08:50:16 AM »

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I know some people may roll their eyes reading this since he's a Sixers player now. But I have to imagine Horford has some lingering injury and he's playing hurt. I mean, I can't imagine his entire game just died in one offseason.

Yes, he doesn't seem to fit well there to begin with and is simply "Embiid insurance", but I think he's still a productive player that just is out of sync lately.

I will say this though. He's not the only Sixers problem. Tobias Harris seems to disappear against great teams a lot and tonight was another example. And he's making 180M over the next 5 years. Middleton is actually worth the similar extension he signed and he's proving it. Harris, not so much.

Horford was already on the decline when he was with the Celts.

I'm not surprised that this is happening to Horford.
He wasn't really at all. His best year ever in terms of efficiency, his second best in terms of total rebound %, best in terms of shot-blocking percentage, and his best scoring per-minute year as a Celtic. He just played less because we had 10 guys routinely getting 15+ MPG, two of them being Baynes and Theis.

Celts were paying Horford 28m per year.

His production with the Celts does not justify the contract he got.

Even when Horford was just averaging 30.5 minutes per game with the Hawks, in 2014-15, Horford still managed to average 15.2 ppg.

With the Celts, Horford's best was 14.0 ppg.

Horford was a max player signing in the summer of 2016.
He didn't play like a max player in his 3 seasons with the Cs.
Ah, the good old nonsense about PPG determining whether or not a player is worth a max contract. Rudy Gobert has never averaged over 16PPG - is he not worth his contract?

Just compare the achievements of Gobert and Horford.

Here:

Gobert

NBA All-Star (2020)
2 NBA Defensive Player of the Year (2018, 2019)
All-NBA Second Team (2017)
All-NBA Third Team (2019)
3 NBA All-Defensive First Team (2017–2019)
NBA blocks leader (2017)
French Player of the Year (2019)

Horford

5 NBA All-Star (2010, 2011, 2015, 2016, 2018)
All-NBA Third Team (2011)
NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2018)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (2008)
2 NCAA champion (2006, 2007)
Second-team All-American – NABC (2007)
Third-team All-American – AP (2007)
SEC Tournament MVP (2007)

The Jazz gave Gobert 102m for 4 years because Gobert is like a Mutombo.

The Celts were forced to give Horford 28m per year because they also wanted to sign KD that summer.

Would the Celts have given Horford that much money if they knew in advance that KD would go to GSW?

Also look at the stats of Gobert and Horford after they signed huge contracts in the summer of 2016.
Gobert has had better numbers than Horford since 2016-17.
And Gobert got 25.5m per year compared to Horford's 28.25m per year.
Your ability to intentionally miss the point is amazing. Remember why I don't engage with you now
No, it's the ability to blindly believe in how accolades and the raw box score are an accurate measure of player quality. Gobert is better than prime Horford, but the difference is a high level All-NBA big versus a low level All-NBA big, both are worth maxes lol.
2020 Celticsstrong Historical Draft - Toronto Raptors:
PG: Kyle Lowry, Kemba Walker, Patrick Beverley
SG: Vince Carter, Donovan Mitchell, Malcolm Brogdon
SF: Khris Middleton, Luol Deng, Danilo Gallinari
PF: Kevin Garnett, Antawn Jamison
C: David Robinson, Vlade Divac, Shawn Bradley

Re: Could Horford end up being the worst contract of offseason?
« Reply #433 on: February 24, 2020, 09:21:13 AM »

Offline Fierce1

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I know some people may roll their eyes reading this since he's a Sixers player now. But I have to imagine Horford has some lingering injury and he's playing hurt. I mean, I can't imagine his entire game just died in one offseason.

Yes, he doesn't seem to fit well there to begin with and is simply "Embiid insurance", but I think he's still a productive player that just is out of sync lately.

I will say this though. He's not the only Sixers problem. Tobias Harris seems to disappear against great teams a lot and tonight was another example. And he's making 180M over the next 5 years. Middleton is actually worth the similar extension he signed and he's proving it. Harris, not so much.

Horford was already on the decline when he was with the Celts.

I'm not surprised that this is happening to Horford.
He wasn't really at all. His best year ever in terms of efficiency, his second best in terms of total rebound %, best in terms of shot-blocking percentage, and his best scoring per-minute year as a Celtic. He just played less because we had 10 guys routinely getting 15+ MPG, two of them being Baynes and Theis.

Celts were paying Horford 28m per year.

His production with the Celts does not justify the contract he got.

Even when Horford was just averaging 30.5 minutes per game with the Hawks, in 2014-15, Horford still managed to average 15.2 ppg.

With the Celts, Horford's best was 14.0 ppg.

Horford was a max player signing in the summer of 2016.
He didn't play like a max player in his 3 seasons with the Cs.
Ah, the good old nonsense about PPG determining whether or not a player is worth a max contract. Rudy Gobert has never averaged over 16PPG - is he not worth his contract?

Just compare the achievements of Gobert and Horford.

Here:

Gobert

NBA All-Star (2020)
2 NBA Defensive Player of the Year (2018, 2019)
All-NBA Second Team (2017)
All-NBA Third Team (2019)
3 NBA All-Defensive First Team (20172019)
NBA blocks leader (2017)
French Player of the Year (2019)

Horford

5 NBA All-Star (2010, 2011, 2015, 2016, 2018)
All-NBA Third Team (2011)
NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2018)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (2008)
2 NCAA champion (2006, 2007)
Second-team All-American NABC (2007)
Third-team All-American AP (2007)
SEC Tournament MVP (2007)

The Jazz gave Gobert 102m for 4 years because Gobert is like a Mutombo.

The Celts were forced to give Horford 28m per year because they also wanted to sign KD that summer.

Would the Celts have given Horford that much money if they knew in advance that KD would go to GSW?

Also look at the stats of Gobert and Horford after they signed huge contracts in the summer of 2016.
Gobert has had better numbers than Horford since 2016-17.
And Gobert got 25.5m per year compared to Horford's 28.25m per year.
Your ability to intentionally miss the point is amazing. Remember why I don't engage with you now

That's because your standard of Celtic basketball is low.

When Ainge traded for KG and gave KG a max extension, the Celts ended up winning a championship.

Long time Celtic fans are used to the Celtics winning championships.

Horford got the max and the Celts never advanced to the Finals.

There's a reason why the Celtics have the most number of championships in NBA history.

Al Horford's tenure with the Celts was a failure period!

Even when Horford was at his prime, KG and the Celts always kicked the butts of Horford's Hawks.

Horford had a chance to prove he's worthy of being called a star player.
But Horford never rose to the occasion when the Celts needed a big game from him in the playoffs.

Maybe we just see things differently.

Re: Could Horford end up being the worst contract of offseason?
« Reply #434 on: February 24, 2020, 10:15:16 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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  • Tommy Points: 1325
If your only ideas as a basketball fan are the following three you're going to suffer a lot more heartache than necessary:

1. How tall a lineup is determines its success
2. Only championship seasons are successful seasons
3. Only championships matter in player evaluation

The first one is going to break your brain as the NBA continues to evolve. The second two are going to rob you of a lot of joy.