Poll

Who should be the starting PF

Robert Williams
3 (3.4%)
Grant Williams
13 (14.6%)
Gordon Hayward
65 (73%)
Daniel Theis
8 (9%)

Total Members Voted: 89

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Re: Poll: Who should be the starting PF
« Reply #105 on: July 20, 2019, 07:43:38 PM »

Online KG Living Legend

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The position that seems to have been eliminated is center. In the new terminology you have ball handlers (point guards), wings (shooting guards), swings (small forwards) and bigs (power fowards and centers.

Brad has said more than once that he has 3 positions

Ball handlers
Wings
Bigs

This forum has been over this many times.  You can call them guards and forwards or wings and bigs, or anything you want.  This question of who will play PF could just as easily have been who will play the second big position and everything that followed would be the same pretty much.

The more fundamental question is whether the Celtics will play with two bigs.  Their best line ups last season, and most used line ups, were the ones with Horford (a big) and one of Morris, Baynes, or Theis.  Now you can nit pick that Morris is more of a swing than a big but I think you see the point.

The Celtics did play some with "small" units with only Horford as the true big on the court.  Usually these line ups included Tatum who you could consider the second big or the PF.  Now under that scenario, is Tatum playing PF or are the Celtics playing with only one big?  I say the latter but you say tomato....

Yes Ive been saying this.

Brad has classified the positions into 3 (or 4) Ballhandlers, Wings, (swings) and Bigs. Now what matters is what lineup is he using on the floor, is it a lineup with 2 bigs (Horford, Baynes), 2 Ballhandlers ( Irving, Smart), the dreaded three ballhandlers (IT, Bradley, Smart) etc.




 And although Smart. Brad is a fool for continuing with this nonsense.

 Stop trying to reinvent the wheel Brad. The Celtics are not winning a title with Gordon Hayward at Power forward.

Shane on Danny to. Your frontline

Was 7 foot Parish
6'10" McHale
6'9" Bird

With all due respect, I find your point of view quaint.

The game has changed because the rules have changed, not because "positionless basketball", or three-position ball, or whatever, is a passing fad. The game has opened up - I for one don't miss all the isos and the static sets from the past.

The rules changes privilege speed and skill, and showcase athleticism.



 Oh really? It's changed so much right.

 Last year's champion.

 C Marc Gasol 7 Feet slow as dirt. Way slower than Tacko.

 PF Ibaka 6'10" Shot blocker

 Sf 6'10" Siakam

Sg 6'7 Kawhi

PG 6'1"

 Defense and rebounding win championships. Still need at least 1 star Kawhi.

 but that's all they had one star and a team full of big tall rebounding shot-blocking defensive players.

 does Golden State dynasty run has got everybody thinking crazy you'll never see guys like that assembled again.
Serge Ibaka was 7th in minutes played

Their lineup was Lowry-Green-Leonard-Siakam-Gasol

Ibaka played less than 100 minutes the entire playoffs at the 4. He was their backup 5.

Siakam is lightning quick and played the 4. Leonard played the 3 registering less than 20 minutes at the 2 the entire playoffs.

Furthermore, Siakam is 6’9” not 6’10.

Why do you feel the need to make stuff up in order to further your point?
Agreed that KG is exaggerating the sizes and lineups of the Raptors a bit, but his point is still valid: the modern NBA has just shifted from prioritising pure size to championing skilled and mobile size. The Raptors were in no shortage of size and length in that championship run.



 TP. At Least Somebody has got my back lol.

 I exaggerated Siakim height by a whole inch.

 As someone mentioned he's got a 7'3" wingspan

 He honestly looks like a 7 footer on the court. Dude is long and quick.

Re: Poll: Who should be the starting PF
« Reply #106 on: July 20, 2019, 08:12:29 PM »

Offline shut_the_gate

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I don't know why this is a question, it's Tatum.

Who started as power forward for the last two seasons? Tatum

He projects to be what Carmelo should have been; a long, athetic, strong, shooting power forward who can switch.

Perhaps for certain match ups you may need a bigger body but for the majority of the season it is Tatum.

Re: Poll: Who should be the starting PF
« Reply #107 on: July 20, 2019, 08:35:22 PM »

Offline jambr380

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I think with the Raptors, it was more about having a true superstar and solid depth than it was being a powerhouse up front. Siakam at PF compared to Tatum/Hayward at PF is a wash to me in terms of size and ability to guard different areas of the floor. What we need to hope for is that Theis/Poirier (or TL/Grant) can actually give us meaningful Ibaka-like minutes at the back up big positions.

It also cannot be said enough, the Raptors got all-time luck when it came to the timing of GSW injuries. They also saw perhaps the most unlikely bounce to win a game (and series) in the ECSF. Using them as a benchmark may leave you a step behind.
Siakam is 6’9 with a >7’3” wingspan

He’s notably bigger than Tatum and Hayward

I understand that Tatum could use a little more muscle to really push the PF agenda, but he is definitely tall enough and long enough to be a PF in today's NBA. I would also say the 6'8" height is outdated. I just don't see enough difference between him and Siakam to say one is a PF and the other isn't.

stg said it better right above, though. Literally the last two seasons, we have started the season with Tatum as our PF. I don't see why in the world that would change now unless Brad decides Hayward is not capable of starting. Even then, you still might see a line-up of Kemba, Smart, JB, Tatum, Kanter.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2019, 01:18:42 AM by jambr380 »

Re: Poll: Who should be the starting PF
« Reply #108 on: July 20, 2019, 08:41:50 PM »

Offline Jvalin

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I don't know why this is a question, it's Tatum.

Who started as power forward for the last two seasons? Tatum

He projects to be what Carmelo should have been; a long, athetic, strong, shooting power forward who can switch.

Perhaps for certain match ups you may need a bigger body but for the majority of the season it is Tatum.
Yep, TP!

The obvious answer is Tatum, yet his name isn't even mentioned in the poll. Go figure.

Re: Poll: Who should be the starting PF
« Reply #109 on: July 20, 2019, 09:28:52 PM »

Online KG Living Legend

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I don't know why this is a question, it's Tatum.

Who started as power forward for the last two seasons? Tatum

He projects to be what Carmelo should have been; a long, athetic, strong, shooting power forward who can switch.

Perhaps for certain match ups you may need a bigger body but for the majority of the season it is Tatum.
Yep, TP!

The obvious answer is Tatum, yet his name isn't even mentioned in the poll. Go figure.



 Okay I'll admit last few posters are right.

 Problem is Tatum is the franchise right now. Why would you play the best prospect since Pierce out of position?

 Al Horford just walked in large part because he was tired of playing out of position at Center.

 Why do the same to the franchise

Re: Poll: Who should be the starting PF
« Reply #110 on: July 20, 2019, 09:47:35 PM »

Offline KGs Knee

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I don't know why this is a question, it's Tatum.

Who started as power forward for the last two seasons? Tatum

He projects to be what Carmelo should have been; a long, athetic, strong, shooting power forward who can switch.

Perhaps for certain match ups you may need a bigger body but for the majority of the season it is Tatum.
Yep, TP!

The obvious answer is Tatum, yet his name isn't even mentioned in the poll. Go figure.



 Okay I'll admit last few posters are right.

 Problem is Tatum is the franchise right now. Why would you play the best prospect since Pierce out of position?

 Al Horford just walked in large part because he was tired of playing out of position at Center.

 Why do the same to the franchise

I do much prefer Tatum at the 3 than the 4.  His combination of a lack of bulk and an average wingspan for a 4 make him difficult to start there.  It's not the best use of his abilities and seems to magnify his weaknesses.

I've seen him matchup against both John Collins and Lauri Markkanen and get abused.  Those guys are who he's going to be facing at the 4 for the foreseeable future if they all stay with their current teams.


Re: Poll: Who should be the starting PF
« Reply #111 on: July 20, 2019, 10:02:30 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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I am not sure why people are so sure about Morris being a true PF at 6'9", while they couldn't imagine Tatum (also 6'9") or Hayward (6'8") playing the position. Morris even came to the team as a SF and his game greatly resembled that of a SF.

Your main point here is a good one, I think. His game is a wing's game; he's not a "true PF". His offensive rebounding numbers, for example, have always been minuscule (and his defensive rebounding has never cracked 20%...).

Having said that, the main difference is weight: Morris 235, Hayward 225, and Tatum 210.


While I agree with your basic points, how confident are we in that 210 number for Tatum?   As far as I know, the last witnessed weight he was measured at was 205 lb at a Nike Hoop Summit back in 2016.   It seems highly unlikely that he's only gained 5 lbs since then.

I suspect that he's quite a lot more than 210 lbs by now.

NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Re: Poll: Who should be the starting PF
« Reply #112 on: July 20, 2019, 10:39:02 PM »

Offline shut_the_gate

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I don't know why this is a question, it's Tatum.

Who started as power forward for the last two seasons? Tatum

He projects to be what Carmelo should have been; a long, athetic, strong, shooting power forward who can switch.

Perhaps for certain match ups you may need a bigger body but for the majority of the season it is Tatum.
Yep, TP!

The obvious answer is Tatum, yet his name isn't even mentioned in the poll. Go figure.



 Okay I'll admit last few posters are right.

 Problem is Tatum is the franchise right now. Why would you play the best prospect since Pierce out of position?

 Al Horford just walked in large part because he was tired of playing out of position at Center.

 Why do the same to the franchise

I do much prefer Tatum at the 3 than the 4.  His combination of a lack of bulk and an average wingspan for a 4 make him difficult to start there.  It's not the best use of his abilities and seems to magnify his weaknesses.

I've seen him matchup against both John Collins and Lauri Markkanen and get abused.  Those guys are who he's going to be facing at the 4 for the foreseeable future if they all stay with their current teams.

Tatum's wingspan at the combine was 6'11 and most probably is closer to 7'0 now, how is that average for a 4? John Collins has a wingspan of 6'11 and Markkanen looks about the same.

Re: Poll: Who should be the starting PF
« Reply #113 on: July 20, 2019, 10:43:33 PM »

Offline Jvalin

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Okay I'll admit last few posters are right.

 Problem is Tatum is the franchise right now. Why would you play the best prospect since Pierce out of position?

 Al Horford just walked in large part because he was tired of playing out of position at Center.

 Why do the same to the franchise
We just singed Kemba on a 4-year max. Hayward is being paid max money as well. This team is built in order to compete. Not saying we'll win it all, but we 'll give it a try. It's not about what's best for Tatum. It's about what's best for the team. Unless of course you 'd rather see us dump all the vets and build around the J's, which ain't happening anyway.

As for Horford, imo at this point of his career he's primarily a Center. He's not quick enough to defend stretch 4s on the perimeter anymore. If you ask me, CBS was absolutely right to use him predominantly at the 5.


I do much prefer Tatum at the 3 than the 4.
I bet we all do. Again, we ain't on a player developement mode. This team is trying to compete. Tatum has been playing at the PF position for 2 seasons now. He's the best PF we got. Chances are that he'll be our starting PF next season as well.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2019, 10:52:18 PM by Jvalin »

Re: Poll: Who should be the starting PF
« Reply #114 on: July 21, 2019, 01:24:58 AM »

Offline jambr380

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I don't know why this is a question, it's Tatum.

Who started as power forward for the last two seasons? Tatum

He projects to be what Carmelo should have been; a long, athetic, strong, shooting power forward who can switch.

Perhaps for certain match ups you may need a bigger body but for the majority of the season it is Tatum.
Yep, TP!

The obvious answer is Tatum, yet his name isn't even mentioned in the poll. Go figure.



 Okay I'll admit last few posters are right.

 Problem is Tatum is the franchise right now. Why would you play the best prospect since Pierce out of position?

 Al Horford just walked in large part because he was tired of playing out of position at Center.

 Why do the same to the franchise

This is why everybody likes you KGLL - you absorb other points of view while also making solid points of your own.

I agree that Tatum is probably not your prototypical PF, but he is our best option right now. We can only hope/assume that he has gained some weight/length from his combine measurements and that he is seriously ready to take on more responsibility.

Not to worry, though. Tatum will see plenty of time at SF, as well - maybe just not at the beginning and end of games.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2019, 08:03:22 PM by jambr380 »

Re: Poll: Who should be the starting PF
« Reply #115 on: July 21, 2019, 04:17:57 AM »

Offline Somebody

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I don't know why this is a question, it's Tatum.

Who started as power forward for the last two seasons? Tatum

He projects to be what Carmelo should have been; a long, athetic, strong, shooting power forward who can switch.

Perhaps for certain match ups you may need a bigger body but for the majority of the season it is Tatum.
Yep, TP!

The obvious answer is Tatum, yet his name isn't even mentioned in the poll. Go figure.



 Okay I'll admit last few posters are right.

 Problem is Tatum is the franchise right now. Why would you play the best prospect since Pierce out of position?

 Al Horford just walked in large part because he was tired of playing out of position at Center.

 Why do the same to the franchise

This is why everybody like you KGLL - you absorb other points of view while also making solid points of your own.

I agree that Tatum is probably not your prototypical PF, but he is our best option right now. We can only hope/assume that he has gained some weight/length from his combine measurements and that he is seriously ready to take on more responsibility.

Not to worry, though. Tatum will see plenty of time at SF, as well - maybe just not at the beginning and end of games.
From his latest social media posts he seems to have lost a bit of weight compared to last season lol.
4th place in the 2019 Celticsstrong All-Time Draft!
PG: Stephen Curry, Steve Nash
SG: Tracy McGrady, Eddie Jones, Gail Goodrich
SF: Julius Erving, Shawn Marion
PF: Kevin Garnett, Elton Brand, Draymond Green
C: Dave Cowens, Artis Gilmore

Re: Poll: Who should be the starting PF
« Reply #116 on: July 22, 2019, 05:40:51 PM »

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I don't know why this is a question, it's Tatum.

Who started as power forward for the last two seasons? Tatum

He projects to be what Carmelo should have been; a long, athetic, strong, shooting power forward who can switch.

Perhaps for certain match ups you may need a bigger body but for the majority of the season it is Tatum.
Yep, TP!

The obvious answer is Tatum, yet his name isn't even mentioned in the poll. Go figure.



 Okay I'll admit last few posters are right.

 Problem is Tatum is the franchise right now. Why would you play the best prospect since Pierce out of position?

 Al Horford just walked in large part because he was tired of playing out of position at Center.

 Why do the same to the franchise

This is why everybody like you KGLL - you absorb other points of view while also making solid points of your own.

I agree that Tatum is probably not your prototypical PF, but he is our best option right now. We can only hope/assume that he has gained some weight/length from his combine measurements and that he is seriously ready to take on more responsibility.

Not to worry, though. Tatum will see plenty of time at SF, as well - maybe just not at the beginning and end of games.




 TP bro. I appreciate that.

Re: Poll: Who should be the starting PF
« Reply #117 on: July 22, 2019, 07:33:57 PM »

Offline Muzzy66

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I don't know why this is a question, it's Tatum.

Who started as power forward for the last two seasons? Tatum

He projects to be what Carmelo should have been; a long, athetic, strong, shooting power forward who can switch.

Perhaps for certain match ups you may need a bigger body but for the majority of the season it is Tatum.
Yep, TP!

The obvious answer is Tatum, yet his name isn't even mentioned in the poll. Go figure.



 Okay I'll admit last few posters are right.

 Problem is Tatum is the franchise right now. Why would you play the best prospect since Pierce out of position?

 Al Horford just walked in large part because he was tired of playing out of position at Center.

 Why do the same to the franchise

This is why everybody like you KGLL - you absorb other points of view while also making solid points of your own.

I agree that Tatum is probably not your prototypical PF, but he is our best option right now. We can only hope/assume that he has gained some weight/length from his combine measurements and that he is seriously ready to take on more responsibility.

Not to worry, though. Tatum will see plenty of time at SF, as well - maybe just not at the beginning and end of games.




 TP bro. I appreciate that.

In fairness, I'm not sure PF is out of position for Tatum. If anything I think it might actually be advantageous for him. 

I feel that when he plays the PF spot he seems to have a major offensive advantage due to his superior quickness, ball handling and perimeter game. Most NBA PF's just cannot guard him on the perimeter or off the dribble.  Yet he has good length and quick hands, which allows him to hold his own against most NBA PFs on the defensive end.

By comparison put him at the SF spot and I think he loses some of those matchup advantages, even if the position might technically be a closer match for his skill set.

Re: Poll: Who should be the starting PF
« Reply #118 on: July 22, 2019, 08:13:32 PM »

Online Surferdad

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I don't know why this is a question, it's Tatum.

Who started as power forward for the last two seasons? Tatum

He projects to be what Carmelo should have been; a long, athetic, strong, shooting power forward who can switch.

Perhaps for certain match ups you may need a bigger body but for the majority of the season it is Tatum.
Yep, TP!

The obvious answer is Tatum, yet his name isn't even mentioned in the poll. Go figure.



 Okay I'll admit last few posters are right.

 Problem is Tatum is the franchise right now. Why would you play the best prospect since Pierce out of position?

 Al Horford just walked in large part because he was tired of playing out of position at Center.

 Why do the same to the franchise

This is why everybody like you KGLL - you absorb other points of view while also making solid points of your own.

I agree that Tatum is probably not your prototypical PF, but he is our best option right now. We can only hope/assume that he has gained some weight/length from his combine measurements and that he is seriously ready to take on more responsibility.

Not to worry, though. Tatum will see plenty of time at SF, as well - maybe just not at the beginning and end of games.




 TP bro. I appreciate that.

In fairness, I'm not sure PF is out of position for Tatum. If anything I think it might actually be advantageous for him. 

I feel that when he plays the PF spot he seems to have a major offensive advantage due to his superior quickness, ball handling and perimeter game. Most NBA PF's just cannot guard him on the perimeter or off the dribble.  Yet he has good length and quick hands, which allows him to hold his own against most NBA PFs on the defensive end.

By comparison put him at the SF spot and I think he loses some of those matchup advantages, even if the position might technically be a closer match for his skill set.
Maybe, sounds theoretical not actual.  Tatum does have an advantage in height at the SF position which means he can shoot over people.

Re: Poll: Who should be the starting PF
« Reply #119 on: July 23, 2019, 01:48:30 AM »

Offline Muzzy66

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I don't know why this is a question, it's Tatum.

Who started as power forward for the last two seasons? Tatum

He projects to be what Carmelo should have been; a long, athetic, strong, shooting power forward who can switch.

Perhaps for certain match ups you may need a bigger body but for the majority of the season it is Tatum.
Yep, TP!

The obvious answer is Tatum, yet his name isn't even mentioned in the poll. Go figure.



 Okay I'll admit last few posters are right.

 Problem is Tatum is the franchise right now. Why would you play the best prospect since Pierce out of position?

 Al Horford just walked in large part because he was tired of playing out of position at Center.

 Why do the same to the franchise

This is why everybody like you KGLL - you absorb other points of view while also making solid points of your own.

I agree that Tatum is probably not your prototypical PF, but he is our best option right now. We can only hope/assume that he has gained some weight/length from his combine measurements and that he is seriously ready to take on more responsibility.

Not to worry, though. Tatum will see plenty of time at SF, as well - maybe just not at the beginning and end of games.




 TP bro. I appreciate that.

In fairness, I'm not sure PF is out of position for Tatum. If anything I think it might actually be advantageous for him. 

I feel that when he plays the PF spot he seems to have a major offensive advantage due to his superior quickness, ball handling and perimeter game. Most NBA PF's just cannot guard him on the perimeter or off the dribble.  Yet he has good length and quick hands, which allows him to hold his own against most NBA PFs on the defensive end.

By comparison put him at the SF spot and I think he loses some of those matchup advantages, even if the position might technically be a closer match for his skill set.
Maybe, sounds theoretical not actual.  Tatum does have an advantage in height at the SF position which means he can shoot over people.

Just going off what I've seen with my own eyes, I don't have any objective stats or data to back it.

But in his rookie season he seemed to spend more time at the starting PF spot and he seemed to really excel there.  In his second year Morris started much of the year at PF which moved Tatum to SF much of the time, and he just didn't seem to have the same type of advantage he had in year one.

It may not have been for that reason, but I just know from the eye test alone he seemed to torch a lot of big men on offense, whereas he didn't seem to have his way as easily against longer / quicker wings.

I may well be 100% wrong and the data may totally disprove that, it's just how things looked to me when I watched.