Author Topic: Whoa. THIS Is The Kind Of "Help" Kemba Had In Charlotte  (Read 2105 times)

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Re: Whoa. THIS Is The Kind Of "Help" Kemba Had In Charlotte
« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2019, 08:32:44 PM »

Offline action781

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Were all their top draft picks over the years -- MKG, Gerald Henderson, Kaminsky, Zeller -- just complete busts of NBA basketball players or did they never develop in part because of Kemba's playing style?  Or Charlotte's player development?

I will answer this because I think it is fairly simple:  Charlotte was not really getting "top draft picks."  Yes, those guys were CHA's top picks and often in the lottery, but it is not like they tanked hard a couple years and got Kemba some elite talents.

Most of the guys they have are, at best, good role players in the league.  Did Kemba stunt their growth in terms of reaching their maximum potential?  Maybe, but now they will have that chance I guess. 

Tatum and Brown are far superior talents, not to mention Hayward.

I agree.   When I first started writing about all their "top draft picks", I had in mind a few other first round picks who weren't actually drafted by them, but still played in Charlotte in some of their younger years and also never developed.  Guys like Marvin Williams (scratch that, turns out he didn't come to Charlotte til he was 28) and Jeremy Lamb.  I wanna say a few others too but can't remember specifically.

But also it should be noted that Charlotte has a track record long before Kemba of not developing draft picks well.  Emeka Okafor, Ray Felton, Adam Morrison, Brandon Wright all fell short of pretty high or decent expectations.  So maybe its unfair to even mention Kemba in he regard that I did.
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Re: Whoa. THIS Is The Kind Of "Help" Kemba Had In Charlotte
« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2019, 08:33:50 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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Were all their top draft picks over the years -- MKG, Gerald Henderson, Kaminsky, Zeller -- just complete busts of NBA basketball players or did they never develop in part because of Kemba's playing style?  Or Charlotte's player development?

I will answer this because I think it is fairly simple:  Charlotte was not really getting "top draft picks."  Yes, those guys were CHA's top picks and often in the lottery, but it is not like they tanked hard a couple years and got Kemba some elite talents.

Most of the guys they have are, at best, good role players in the league.  Did Kemba stunt their growth in terms of reaching their maximum potential?  Maybe, but now they will have that chance I guess. 

Tatum and Brown are far superior talents, not to mention Hayward.

wait till he gets Westbrooke ..LOL

Re: Whoa. THIS Is The Kind Of "Help" Kemba Had In Charlotte
« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2019, 08:47:54 PM »

Online jambr380

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I guess it's pretty obvious why Kemba didn't sign with NYK then. He had probably just about had it with mediocre franchises. From afar, it is clear as day what Danny has been doing to keep this franchise fresh and competitive - CHA and NYK, not so much. Ironically enough, if NYK just kept Porzingis, maybe Kemba would have been more inclined to go there. Oh well for them and lucky us!

Re: Whoa. THIS Is The Kind Of "Help" Kemba Had In Charlotte
« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2019, 09:26:48 PM »

Offline timpiker

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Not exactly how to structure this post in a cohesive way, but I've got a few main points I want to address and they might intertwine.

1.  First of all, Kemba definitely didn't have much help overall in his time in Charlotte.  Al Jefferson was not a great winning basketball player and Dwight was on his way down in his career.  Batum was a highly regarded player coming in though who never panned out, so that is a curious case.

2.  So Batum didn't flourish when he went there.  Charlotte also had a number of reasonable lottery picks this decade.  I have a theory on NBA draft picks that its not entirely about prospects being booms/busts themselves (although of course there are certainly exceptions), but rather if the franchise booms/busts in their development of the prospects.  Were all their top draft picks over the years -- MKG, Gerald Henderson, Kaminsky, Zeller -- just complete busts of NBA basketball players or did they never develop in part because of Kemba's playing style?  Or Charlotte's player development?  Is that also why Batum never flourished there?  Was there ever ONE player who flourished playing alongside Kemba?  Was the surrounding cast *that* bad... was Charlotte management was so incompetent they couldn't even get lucky enough to somehow stumble upon ONE good basketball player to put on the floor with Kemba in the past 8 seasons?

3.  I don't think Marvin Williams and Nic Batum going 1-3 and 0-4 from the floor in that Philly game are indicative of being bad players.  I think its indicative of a point guard not getting them involved in the game.  At least for me... if I'm only taking 3 shots in 27 minutes, that is likely affecting my defensive effort as well.  I know that's not a ringing endorsement of me, but there's a human element to that which can't be ignored.

I have hope to believe that Kemba will be a better fit here than Kyrie was.  I'm hopeful that he has trust in his teammates here and I think there was some reason to not have faith in his surrounding cast and management in Charlotte.  But I'm a little skeptical too that no other players seemed to get better when coming to Charlotte and playing alongside Kemba.  I genuinely have optimism that he will work out well in Boston's system, but I do carry a little bit of doubt that maybe Kemba's not exactly what we all hope/think he is.

[dang].  Now I'm depressed.

Re: Whoa. THIS Is The Kind Of "Help" Kemba Had In Charlotte
« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2019, 09:53:06 PM »

Offline gouki88

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Not exactly how to structure this post in a cohesive way, but I've got a few main points I want to address and they might intertwine.

1.  First of all, Kemba definitely didn't have much help overall in his time in Charlotte.  Al Jefferson was not a great winning basketball player and Dwight was on his way down in his career.  Batum was a highly regarded player coming in though who never panned out, so that is a curious case.

2.  So Batum didn't flourish when he went there.  Charlotte also had a number of reasonable lottery picks this decade.  I have a theory on NBA draft picks that its not entirely about prospects being booms/busts themselves (although of course there are certainly exceptions), but rather if the franchise booms/busts in their development of the prospects.  Were all their top draft picks over the years -- MKG, Gerald Henderson, Kaminsky, Zeller -- just complete busts of NBA basketball players or did they never develop in part because of Kemba's playing style?  Or Charlotte's player development?  Is that also why Batum never flourished there?  Was there ever ONE player who flourished playing alongside Kemba?  Was the surrounding cast *that* bad... was Charlotte management was so incompetent they couldn't even get lucky enough to somehow stumble upon ONE good basketball player to put on the floor with Kemba in the past 8 seasons?

3.  I don't think Marvin Williams and Nic Batum going 1-3 and 0-4 from the floor in that Philly game are indicative of being bad players.  I think its indicative of a point guard not getting them involved in the game.  At least for me... if I'm only taking 3 shots in 27 minutes, that is likely affecting my defensive effort as well.  I know that's not a ringing endorsement of me, but there's a human element to that which can't be ignored.

I have hope to believe that Kemba will be a better fit here than Kyrie was.  I'm hopeful that he has trust in his teammates here and I think there was some reason to not have faith in his surrounding cast and management in Charlotte.  But I'm a little skeptical too that no other players seemed to get better when coming to Charlotte and playing alongside Kemba.  I genuinely have optimism that he will work out well in Boston's system, but I do carry a little bit of doubt that maybe Kemba's not exactly what we all hope/think he is.

[dang].  Now I'm depressed.
You can look at it that way, or you can look at it through the lens that Kembla was able to flourish despite playing for the worst organisation in the league. You only need to look at the contracts they give out and the players they simply fail to develop.

Charlotte not long ago put up the worst season of all time. Don't give them any credit, because they don't deserve any
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Re: Whoa. THIS Is The Kind Of "Help" Kemba Had In Charlotte
« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2019, 09:57:54 PM »

Online Surferdad

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Not exactly how to structure this post in a cohesive way, but I've got a few main points I want to address and they might intertwine.

1.  First of all, Kemba definitely didn't have much help overall in his time in Charlotte.  Al Jefferson was not a great winning basketball player and Dwight was on his way down in his career.  Batum was a highly regarded player coming in though who never panned out, so that is a curious case.

2.  So Batum didn't flourish when he went there.  Charlotte also had a number of reasonable lottery picks this decade.  I have a theory on NBA draft picks that its not entirely about prospects being booms/busts themselves (although of course there are certainly exceptions), but rather if the franchise booms/busts in their development of the prospects.  Were all their top draft picks over the years -- MKG, Gerald Henderson, Kaminsky, Zeller -- just complete busts of NBA basketball players or did they never develop in part because of Kemba's playing style?  Or Charlotte's player development?  Is that also why Batum never flourished there?  Was there ever ONE player who flourished playing alongside Kemba?  Was the surrounding cast *that* bad... was Charlotte management was so incompetent they couldn't even get lucky enough to somehow stumble upon ONE good basketball player to put on the floor with Kemba in the past 8 seasons?

3.  I don't think Marvin Williams and Nic Batum going 1-3 and 0-4 from the floor in that Philly game are indicative of being bad players.  I think its indicative of a point guard not getting them involved in the game.  At least for me... if I'm only taking 3 shots in 27 minutes, that is likely affecting my defensive effort as well.  I know that's not a ringing endorsement of me, but there's a human element to that which can't be ignored.

I have hope to believe that Kemba will be a better fit here than Kyrie was.  I'm hopeful that he has trust in his teammates here and I think there was some reason to not have faith in his surrounding cast and management in Charlotte.  But I'm a little skeptical too that no other players seemed to get better when coming to Charlotte and playing alongside Kemba.  I genuinely have optimism that he will work out well in Boston's system, but I do carry a little bit of doubt that maybe Kemba's not exactly what we all hope/think he is.

[dang].  Now I'm depressed.
You can look at it that way, or you can look at it through the lens that Kembla was able to flourish despite playing for the worst organisation in the league. You only need to look at the contracts they give out and the players they simply fail to develop.

Charlotte not long ago put up the worst season of all time. Don't give them any credit, because they don't deserve any
Take that a step higher:  Did Michael Jordan never develop into a great GM because he works for a terrible organization that doesn't spend enough and doesnít develop what they have?  These chicken-egg type questions are fascinating.

Re: Whoa. THIS Is The Kind Of "Help" Kemba Had In Charlotte
« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2019, 10:02:57 PM »

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The million dollar question is if he can shoot and score less, pass much more, and still fit in/be happy.  If he is about playing with talent and winning he will have to.  Love to see him at 20-22 pts, 5r, 10ast.  Then have JT at 18pts, 8rbs, 4 ast, GH at 18-20pts, 6rbs, 6 ast, and brown at 16 pts, 3rbs, 4 ast, and EK at 14-16 pts, 12rbs, and 3 ast.  Thats 90 points and 34 rbs, and 27 ast, just in starting lineup.  Add about 35 points from the bench(smart with 14-15 of them) and would be a fun team.  They need to RUN!!  With the improved rebounding I think they can run alot.

Re: Whoa. THIS Is The Kind Of "Help" Kemba Had In Charlotte
« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2019, 10:31:58 PM »

Offline droopdog7

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The million dollar question is if he can shoot and score less, pass much more, and still fit in/be happy.  If he is about playing with talent and winning he will have to.  Love to see him at 20-22 pts, 5r, 10ast.  Then have JT at 18pts, 8rbs, 4 ast, GH at 18-20pts, 6rbs, 6 ast, and brown at 16 pts, 3rbs, 4 ast, and EK at 14-16 pts, 12rbs, and 3 ast.  Thats 90 points and 34 rbs, and 27 ast, just in starting lineup.  Add about 35 points from the bench(smart with 14-15 of them) and would be a fun team.  They need to RUN!!  With the improved rebounding I think they can run alot.
Iíd eat my cell phone for breakfast if kemba averaged 10 assists a game.

Re: Whoa. THIS Is The Kind Of "Help" Kemba Had In Charlotte
« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2019, 10:43:42 PM »

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The stats in that chart aren't correct.  For example, Mo Williams played 27 games in the 14/15 season and averaged 17.2 ppg for Charlotte (he averaged 14 on the whole season, but played a lot more than 17 games).

They are also pretty misleading.  I mean Al Jefferson averaged 21.8 and then 16.6 before playing about half the season and a lot less minutes at just 12 ppg his 3rd and final year there. 
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Re: Whoa. THIS Is The Kind Of "Help" Kemba Had In Charlotte
« Reply #24 on: July 11, 2019, 10:57:40 PM »

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Shows a lot about his character to stay there as long as he actually did. 

Re: Whoa. THIS Is The Kind Of "Help" Kemba Had In Charlotte
« Reply #25 on: July 11, 2019, 11:18:29 PM »

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Re: Whoa. THIS Is The Kind Of "Help" Kemba Had In Charlotte
« Reply #26 on: July 11, 2019, 11:22:18 PM »

Offline gouki88

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The stats in that chart aren't correct.  For example, Mo Williams played 27 games in the 14/15 season and averaged 17.2 ppg for Charlotte (he averaged 14 on the whole season, but played a lot more than 17 games).

They are also pretty misleading.  I mean Al Jefferson averaged 21.8 and then 16.6 before playing about half the season and a lot less minutes at just 12 ppg his 3rd and final year there.
Mo Williams played 27 games, 10 of which Kemba did not play in with him. Hence the stat.

How is that misleading? It is literally just showing the numbers that Big Al put up in the games he played with Kemba
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Re: Whoa. THIS Is The Kind Of "Help" Kemba Had In Charlotte
« Reply #27 on: July 11, 2019, 11:47:37 PM »

Offline GreenEnvy

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The stats in that chart aren't correct.  For example, Mo Williams played 27 games in the 14/15 season and averaged 17.2 ppg for Charlotte (he averaged 14 on the whole season, but played a lot more than 17 games).

They are also pretty misleading.  I mean Al Jefferson averaged 21.8 and then 16.6 before playing about half the season and a lot less minutes at just 12 ppg his 3rd and final year there.

The stats are correct and they arenít misleading. If you donít understand the chart presented, just ask (instead of throwing a wet blanket on another thread).

Kemba played with Mo Williams for 17 games. Just because Mo played 27 games for the Hornets that year, doesnít mean he played them all with Kemba (who missed 20 games that season and 10 of which came after Williams joined the team).

If Big Al couldnít get the playing time (whether injury or ineffectiveness, doesnít matter), I donít see why his name is worth more than his production. His numbers include all his time with Kemba. If he wasnít out there much or simply not as good anymore, his numbers as Kembaís teammate should reflect that.
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Re: Whoa. THIS Is The Kind Of "Help" Kemba Had In Charlotte
« Reply #28 on: July 12, 2019, 08:52:45 AM »

Online Moranis

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The stats in that chart aren't correct.  For example, Mo Williams played 27 games in the 14/15 season and averaged 17.2 ppg for Charlotte (he averaged 14 on the whole season, but played a lot more than 17 games).

They are also pretty misleading.  I mean Al Jefferson averaged 21.8 and then 16.6 before playing about half the season and a lot less minutes at just 12 ppg his 3rd and final year there.
Mo Williams played 27 games, 10 of which Kemba did not play in with him. Hence the stat.

How is that misleading? It is literally just showing the numbers that Big Al put up in the games he played with Kemba
To be clear nothing in the chart or the post indicates it is actually games played with Kemba, it says his teammates in Charlotte.  So that in and of itself is misleading.  And why on earth would you do that the stat that way.  It makes no sense. Mo Williams scored 17 a game in his limited time on Charlotte.  When he and Walker played together he played less minutes deflating his numbers and lowering the 17 overall, but not his talent.  Thus, doing the stat that way makes Williams numbers less than they were and makes it misleading (and of course that is the case when you add a high level scorer to a team).  Al Jefferson got old, it happens, but he was a 22 point scorer with Kemba his first year.  By including the terrible last season it makes it seem like Jefferson wasn't an all star level player at any time with Kemba, and that just isn't true, also making it seem he was worse than he was.

So I absolutely dispute how that was put together.  I mean I wouldn't just include Rozier's stats when Irving played, I'd include them all.  If anything, the games Irving didn't play provide a clearer picture of the type of player Rozier is and the talent level he had. 

BTW, Irving played with worse teammates in Boston than Walker did in Charlotte if that is the metric we are using to determine things.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2019, 08:59:46 AM by Moranis »
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Re: Whoa. THIS Is The Kind Of "Help" Kemba Had In Charlotte
« Reply #29 on: July 12, 2019, 09:02:37 AM »

Offline gift

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Not exactly how to structure this post in a cohesive way, but I've got a few main points I want to address and they might intertwine.

1.  First of all, Kemba definitely didn't have much help overall in his time in Charlotte.  Al Jefferson was not a great winning basketball player and Dwight was on his way down in his career.  Batum was a highly regarded player coming in though who never panned out, so that is a curious case.

2.  So Batum didn't flourish when he went there.  Charlotte also had a number of reasonable lottery picks this decade.  I have a theory on NBA draft picks that its not entirely about prospects being booms/busts themselves (although of course there are certainly exceptions), but rather if the franchise booms/busts in their development of the prospects.  Were all their top draft picks over the years -- MKG, Gerald Henderson, Kaminsky, Zeller -- just complete busts of NBA basketball players or did they never develop in part because of Kemba's playing style?  Or Charlotte's player development?  Is that also why Batum never flourished there?  Was there ever ONE player who flourished playing alongside Kemba?  Was the surrounding cast *that* bad... was Charlotte management was so incompetent they couldn't even get lucky enough to somehow stumble upon ONE good basketball player to put on the floor with Kemba in the past 8 seasons?

3.  I don't think Marvin Williams and Nic Batum going 1-3 and 0-4 from the floor in that Philly game are indicative of being bad players.  I think its indicative of a point guard not getting them involved in the game.  At least for me... if I'm only taking 3 shots in 27 minutes, that is likely affecting my defensive effort as well.  I know that's not a ringing endorsement of me, but there's a human element to that which can't be ignored.

I have hope to believe that Kemba will be a better fit here than Kyrie was.  I'm hopeful that he has trust in his teammates here and I think there was some reason to not have faith in his surrounding cast and management in Charlotte.  But I'm a little skeptical too that no other players seemed to get better when coming to Charlotte and playing alongside Kemba.  I genuinely have optimism that he will work out well in Boston's system, but I do carry a little bit of doubt that maybe Kemba's not exactly what we all hope/think he is.

[dang].  Now I'm depressed.
You can look at it that way, or you can look at it through the lens that Kembla was able to flourish despite playing for the worst organisation in the league. You only need to look at the contracts they give out and the players they simply fail to develop.

Charlotte not long ago put up the worst season of all time. Don't give them any credit, because they don't deserve any
Take that a step higher:  Did Michael Jordan never develop into a great GM because he works for a terrible organization that doesn't spend enough and doesnít develop what they have?  These chicken-egg type questions are fascinating.

Michael Jordan isn't the GM, though. He's the organization.