Did we make the wrong choice between Robert Williams and Mitchell Robinson?

[ImShakHeIsShaq]

My primary criticism is that we have drafted a number of guys who didn't seem to have the necessary focus/work ethic/competitiveness traits to succeed.

Williams
Yabusele
Young
Sullinger
Melo

Welcome to picking in the teens and 20s, where you get to choose between talents that have dropped because of other concerns or hard-workers that have risen above.  Sometimes you pick the talent and hope that being a professional surrounded by other pros and coaches will help develop the work ethic.  Other times you pick the hard worker.  RJ Hunter was the hard-worker — he couldn’t get past that his talent want NBA-level.  Some work out, some don’t. 

Although I’ll say, this narrative that Yabu wasn’t a hard worker seems new in the last two days.  Never heard that about him before.  Sure, he has fitness concerns, but that could be as much of his body and genetics not being up to the task of being an NBA player as it is bad work ethic.  I think he just wasn’t good enough.  When he was picked, he was raw because he was new to basketball and the Celtics thought he could grow.  That he didn’t grow might not mean he didn’t work, it might rather mean that the Celtics misjudged his ceiling.

It isn't just the work ethic. It is also a competitive nature. And players that have that get better between being 19 and being 23.

Yabu never added anything during his time here. He didn't lose 10 pounds, much less 20 pounds. He didn't become a better shooter, or add a jump hook, or a left hand, or learn how to bully inside or any of the other things that players do when they want it bad enough. None of the guys I listed did much. James Young got somewhat stronger, but he never had the competitive fire you need to see.

I have no idea how hard RJ Hunter worked. He didn't improve much over several years. I know that.

You don't know how hard any of them worked. Some people aren't NBA material no matter how hard they work or want it. You are basing how hard they work on what you can see and that isn't much. Maybe they tried hard to get better at other things or maybe they tried to focus on 1-2 things that could work for them as a role-player, but in the end they just aren't good enough. This isn't magic, some people just don't have what it takes.

[td450]

My primary criticism is that we have drafted a number of guys who didn't seem to have the necessary focus/work ethic/competitiveness traits to succeed.

Williams
Yabusele
Young
Sullinger
Melo

Welcome to picking in the teens and 20s, where you get to choose between talents that have dropped because of other concerns or hard-workers that have risen above.  Sometimes you pick the talent and hope that being a professional surrounded by other pros and coaches will help develop the work ethic.  Other times you pick the hard worker.  RJ Hunter was the hard-worker — he couldn’t get past that his talent want NBA-level.  Some work out, some don’t. 

Although I’ll say, this narrative that Yabu wasn’t a hard worker seems new in the last two days.  Never heard that about him before.  Sure, he has fitness concerns, but that could be as much of his body and genetics not being up to the task of being an NBA player as it is bad work ethic.  I think he just wasn’t good enough.  When he was picked, he was raw because he was new to basketball and the Celtics thought he could grow.  That he didn’t grow might not mean he didn’t work, it might rather mean that the Celtics misjudged his ceiling.

It isn't just the work ethic. It is also a competitive nature. And players that have that get better between being 19 and being 23.

Yabu never added anything during his time here. He didn't lose 10 pounds, much less 20 pounds. He didn't become a better shooter, or add a jump hook, or a left hand, or learn how to bully inside or any of the other things that players do when they want it bad enough. None of the guys I listed did much. James Young got somewhat stronger, but he never had the competitive fire you need to see.

I have no idea how hard RJ Hunter worked. He didn't improve much over several years. I know that.

You don't know how hard any of them worked. Some people aren't NBA material no matter how hard they work or want it. You are basing how hard they work on what you can see and that isn't much. Maybe they tried hard to get better at other things or maybe they tried to focus on 1-2 things that could work for them as a role-player, but in the end they just aren't good enough. This isn't magic, some people just don't have what it takes.

Yes, all I know is that they didn't improve at anything, which is the bottom line.

[ImShakHeIsShaq]

My primary criticism is that we have drafted a number of guys who didn't seem to have the necessary focus/work ethic/competitiveness traits to succeed.

Williams
Yabusele
Young
Sullinger
Melo

Welcome to picking in the teens and 20s, where you get to choose between talents that have dropped because of other concerns or hard-workers that have risen above.  Sometimes you pick the talent and hope that being a professional surrounded by other pros and coaches will help develop the work ethic.  Other times you pick the hard worker.  RJ Hunter was the hard-worker — he couldn’t get past that his talent want NBA-level.  Some work out, some don’t. 

Although I’ll say, this narrative that Yabu wasn’t a hard worker seems new in the last two days.  Never heard that about him before.  Sure, he has fitness concerns, but that could be as much of his body and genetics not being up to the task of being an NBA player as it is bad work ethic.  I think he just wasn’t good enough.  When he was picked, he was raw because he was new to basketball and the Celtics thought he could grow.  That he didn’t grow might not mean he didn’t work, it might rather mean that the Celtics misjudged his ceiling.

It isn't just the work ethic. It is also a competitive nature. And players that have that get better between being 19 and being 23.

Yabu never added anything during his time here. He didn't lose 10 pounds, much less 20 pounds. He didn't become a better shooter, or add a jump hook, or a left hand, or learn how to bully inside or any of the other things that players do when they want it bad enough. None of the guys I listed did much. James Young got somewhat stronger, but he never had the competitive fire you need to see.

I have no idea how hard RJ Hunter worked. He didn't improve much over several years. I know that.

You don't know how hard any of them worked. Some people aren't NBA material no matter how hard they work or want it. You are basing how hard they work on what you can see and that isn't much. Maybe they tried hard to get better at other things or maybe they tried to focus on 1-2 things that could work for them as a role-player, but in the end they just aren't good enough. This isn't magic, some people just don't have what it takes.

Yes, all I know is that they didn't improve at anything, which is the bottom line.

How exactly do you know whether they improved at anything when you never saw them play? You didn't see the things they were bad at and you didn't get to see whether they improved or not. You saw nothing.

[Celtics4ever]

I don't like the poll choices, but Robinson is a better player today.

[Yoki_IsTheName]

I think yes, because I think what Robert Williams can do, so can Mitchell Robinson, but Robinson is taller and longer.

[RockinRyA]

let me pummel an expired equine....

not drafting antetokounmpo early in the draft was not unreasonable in the minds of a number of NBA GMs. he wasnt a sure thing at all. given the scouting reports, he has great potential to be a good nba player, and, great potential to be a bust. lots of people raved about him, and in the same report raised questions concerning the level of competition, translation of skills to nba, and so on.

here are few quotes from scouting report prior to the draft that raised questions.

"From what I saw during Filathlitikos' last game, Antetokounmpo isn't comfortable playing off the ball as a wing. He seemed unaware of how to get involved or how to put himself in scoring position.
...
Creating his own shot from the wing, catching and shooting as a spot-up threat and slashing off the ball are skills that Antetokounmpo will likely have to learn during his transition to the NBA game."


"Giannis Adetokunbo is an 18-year old from Greece (his family is originally from Nigeria) on a second-division team. He hasn't competed for his national team and he didn't go to the Hoop Summit or the Combine. There isn't all that much to evaluate him on..."

"Realistically, he's at least two years away from coming over. He will play in Spain next season. If Greece is A or AA ball, Spain is AAA. ... He may top out as a secondary ball-handler and an extremely long 3+D wing, but that's still worth a high pick for a team that can wait."

"Scouts are impressed by his speed and his ability to seemingly play every position on the floor. Whether or not Adetokunbo is able to still perform like that against the top talent in the world is the big question in taking a gamble on him."

" With youth and potential, Adetokunbo could be a part of the Nets future, with his skillset, but is he worth the risk when roles need to be filled now? That is the burning question with him."

and, from CELTICSBLOG:
""The Greek Freak" doesn't exactly have freakish athletic ability to go along with his nickname. Compared to some ‘freaks' in the NBA, Giannis Antetokounmpo might appear relatively normal. Giannis doesn't 'explode' out of the gym with his leaps and he won't blow past anyone with his speed either."

and...

"It's very difficult to gauge Giannis Antetokounmpo's potential considering the level of competition he faced. The Greek A2 league is better than some other European leagues, but it still isn't nearly as talented as Greek's first tier. Antetokounmpo will have to play against better players in order to prove that he truly has the potential he showed this past season."

Didn't help that he also grew some few inches after.

[Kuberski33]

I see Robinson as a very traditional rim running / rim protecting bag man. Williams is very similar however I think he has more potential as a perimeter defender and passer.

I watch the way Williams moves and that type of athleticism is something you can't teach and it's rare in a guy that size. It's just that the problem with developing bigs is it can sometimes take so long that even if they pan out, you're just doing it for their next team.

His offensive game looks like he's still at least 3 seasons away from being able to help a good NBA team - i.e. not even close to being acceptable.

[td450]

My primary criticism is that we have drafted a number of guys who didn't seem to have the necessary focus/work ethic/competitiveness traits to succeed.

Williams
Yabusele
Young
Sullinger
Melo

Welcome to picking in the teens and 20s, where you get to choose between talents that have dropped because of other concerns or hard-workers that have risen above.  Sometimes you pick the talent and hope that being a professional surrounded by other pros and coaches will help develop the work ethic.  Other times you pick the hard worker.  RJ Hunter was the hard-worker — he couldn’t get past that his talent want NBA-level.  Some work out, some don’t. 

Although I’ll say, this narrative that Yabu wasn’t a hard worker seems new in the last two days.  Never heard that about him before.  Sure, he has fitness concerns, but that could be as much of his body and genetics not being up to the task of being an NBA player as it is bad work ethic.  I think he just wasn’t good enough.  When he was picked, he was raw because he was new to basketball and the Celtics thought he could grow.  That he didn’t grow might not mean he didn’t work, it might rather mean that the Celtics misjudged his ceiling.

It isn't just the work ethic. It is also a competitive nature. And players that have that get better between being 19 and being 23.

Yabu never added anything during his time here. He didn't lose 10 pounds, much less 20 pounds. He didn't become a better shooter, or add a jump hook, or a left hand, or learn how to bully inside or any of the other things that players do when they want it bad enough. None of the guys I listed did much. James Young got somewhat stronger, but he never had the competitive fire you need to see.

I have no idea how hard RJ Hunter worked. He didn't improve much over several years. I know that.

You don't know how hard any of them worked. Some people aren't NBA material no matter how hard they work or want it. You are basing how hard they work on what you can see and that isn't much. Maybe they tried hard to get better at other things or maybe they tried to focus on 1-2 things that could work for them as a role-player, but in the end they just aren't good enough. This isn't magic, some people just don't have what it takes.

Yes, all I know is that they didn't improve at anything, which is the bottom line.

How exactly do you know whether they improved at anything when you never saw them play? You didn't see the things they were bad at and you didn't get to see whether they improved or not. You saw nothing.

Now you are getting belligerent.

I watch some of virtually every game, including summer leagues and preseason. I did see them play, even the ones that didn't play much.

It is a reasonable assumption that a young player entering a professional environment with high end developmental resources should improve between ages 19-23. There are occasionally extenuating circumstances out of the player's control, but that process should work out for the majority of 1st round level talents.

Given the vast number of games and the profile these guys have, its tedious to claim that a fan cannot have an informed opinion on any NBA player that spends multiple years on a roster. We can. This isn't the CIA. It's the NBA.