Author Topic: Langford Fits in Well with the Young Core  (Read 4188 times)

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Re: Langford fits in well with the young core
« Reply #30 on: June 24, 2019, 04:59:59 PM »

Offline Silky

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The more I watch the more i dislike.

I dont like players that give up on defemse and play completely disinterested on that end.

I also dont like when I see teammates drop their hands when a player gets the ball. (That indicates they know they are not getting it back) right now I wouldnt value him more than rozier.

His off ball awareness really does suck right now. If he wants to become anything in the league then he needs to sort it out. I think Brad's system will force him to learn it though, the read and react doesn't allow you to switch off because you can always be involved. And he'll need to get that if he wants to see time on the floor
Which really makes drafting him at #14 questionable. The chances of him hitting his ceiling isn't really that high, and even if he does it's not like he'll be head and shoulders above other prospects available at #14 assuming they also hit their ceilings (which is more likely to happen imo).
Not sure I agree with that. On the ball he is very good, he finishes through contact and as a defender he's excellent at defending the ball.

Every player has flaws they must overcome. LeBron had no jumper coming out of high school..

Langford's flaws are very correctable with application. What makes him a great pick at 14 is his offensive ability at this age. He's got a game that will translate very well to the NBA. Much more so than other guys in that range like Doumbouya or Bidatze

He has a far from complete offensive game.

He actually had poor playmaking and a pretty broken shot.

I mean in a vacuum he will go out and score points. He will keep the ball when doubled etc and not pass teammates and will have middle if the road efficiencies in the nba...but sure.


He has a long way to go. A long way. Like he is at least 2 years away from sniffing 30mins a game on a successful nba team

Re: Langford Fits in Well with the Young Core
« Reply #31 on: June 24, 2019, 05:30:08 PM »

Offline Alleyoopster

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He'll likely turn out to be a good pick. He can score and has decent feel for the game. However, his defensive weakness worries me.

It seems almost every game the Celtics lost this year there was one or two opposing players who couldn't be stopped from the 3-point area. Often they would take over games in the 3rd period and bury the C's.

I would have preferred the Celtics drafted Langford, yet kept Matisse Thybulle. He may not have anywhere near the offensive capability, but his length, strength and hops make him a defensive menace. From what I've seen on video he's an exceptional athlete and covers a lot of ground with his feet and shot blocking prowess.   

Re: Langford Fits in Well with the Young Core
« Reply #32 on: June 24, 2019, 06:17:55 PM »

Offline mctyson

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He gives us a different look and something different they brown and tatum don't bring. He's a slasher who can handle the ball and who can play multiple positions. He has a nice touch and after his hand injury fully recovers, he will be back in business. Good transition game, smart on the open floor.

This kid was a 5 star high school recruit. Not saying every 5 star high school recruit pans out, but he's long, has many strengths, and a clearly decent ceiling. Give him the Celtics shooting coach that taught brown how to hit the 3. Picking at 14 wasn't going to get us a "sure-thing." but we have a nice prospect

I dont get what there's not to like. I also keep seeing people say he's "redundant" and we "already have brown and tatum and Hayward. Why do we need Langford"

-You can never have too many wings
-There are 17 roster spots on a team
-Someone's gotta come off the bench.. Brown/tatum/Hayward can't play 40 minutes each
-langford is a good prospect. Even if we had 10 players like tatum and brown, id still get langford



As for his weaknesses:

-Stevens and staff need to fix his defense
-Give him the shooting coach that taught Brown how to hit the 3


Itll take time but it will pay dividends in the long run to have this kid.

It is the exact type of pick you make in that late lottery position, and try to get a guy with top-8 talent that fell for what I would say are "correctable" reasons.

Re: Langford Fits in Well with the Young Core
« Reply #33 on: June 24, 2019, 07:17:42 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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James Young was great pick if you is drinking the green kool aid

Re: Langford fits in well with the young core
« Reply #34 on: June 24, 2019, 07:28:53 PM »

Offline footey

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The more I watch the more i dislike.

I dont like players that give up on defemse and play completely disinterested on that end.

I also dont like when I see teammates drop their hands when a player gets the ball. (That indicates they know they are not getting it back) right now I wouldnt value him more than rozier.

His off ball awareness really does suck right now. If he wants to become anything in the league then he needs to sort it out. I think Brad's system will force him to learn it though, the read and react doesn't allow you to switch off because you can always be involved. And he'll need to get that if he wants to see time on the floor
Which really makes drafting him at #14 questionable. The chances of him hitting his ceiling isn't really that high, and even if he does it's not like he'll be head and shoulders above other prospects available at #14 assuming they also hit their ceilings (which is more likely to happen imo).
Not sure I agree with that. On the ball he is very good, he finishes through contact and as a defender he's excellent at defending the ball.

Every player has flaws they must overcome. LeBron had no jumper coming out of high school..

Langford's flaws are very correctable with application. What makes him a great pick at 14 is his offensive ability at this age. He's got a game that will translate very well to the NBA. Much more so than other guys in that range like Doumbouya or Bidatze

He has a far from complete offensive game.

He actually had poor playmaking and a pretty broken shot.

I mean in a vacuum he will go out and score points. He will keep the ball when doubled etc and not pass teammates and will have middle if the road efficiencies in the nba...but sure.


He has a long way to go. A long way. Like he is at least 2 years away from sniffing 30mins a game on a successful nba team
Who were the 3 guys you wanted?

Re: Langford fits in well with the young core
« Reply #35 on: June 24, 2019, 08:20:56 PM »

Offline TheSundanceKid

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The more I watch the more i dislike.

I dont like players that give up on defemse and play completely disinterested on that end.

I also dont like when I see teammates drop their hands when a player gets the ball. (That indicates they know they are not getting it back) right now I wouldnt value him more than rozier.

His off ball awareness really does suck right now. If he wants to become anything in the league then he needs to sort it out. I think Brad's system will force him to learn it though, the read and react doesn't allow you to switch off because you can always be involved. And he'll need to get that if he wants to see time on the floor
Which really makes drafting him at #14 questionable. The chances of him hitting his ceiling isn't really that high, and even if he does it's not like he'll be head and shoulders above other prospects available at #14 assuming they also hit their ceilings (which is more likely to happen imo).
Not sure I agree with that. On the ball he is very good, he finishes through contact and as a defender he's excellent at defending the ball.

Every player has flaws they must overcome. LeBron had no jumper coming out of high school..

Langford's flaws are very correctable with application. What makes him a great pick at 14 is his offensive ability at this age. He's got a game that will translate very well to the NBA. Much more so than other guys in that range like Doumbouya or Bidatze

He has a far from complete offensive game.

He actually had poor playmaking and a pretty broken shot.

I mean in a vacuum he will go out and score points. He will keep the ball when doubled etc and not pass teammates and will have middle if the road efficiencies in the nba...but sure.


He has a long way to go. A long way. Like he is at least 2 years away from sniffing 30mins a game on a successful nba team
If anyone outside the top 10 is playing 30 minutes after 2 years on a successful team I'd call that a huge win...

I don't think his shot is broken. Before college he was a good all round scorer, I'm not concerned by one off year. He does have a mature feel for the shot when driving the ball which will translate well to NBA games.

His play making wasn't consistent but he showed flashes. I'd like to see how he acts on a team of scorers before I judge him too harshly on that front. I think it's quite easy for a player like him to force things and be a bit too selfish.

Remember this is pick 14, not pick 3. You pick BPA and you think about upside. There wasn't another player available with his pedigree or upside. (and physical measurements is not upside... you have to show actual technical potential to count as upside)

Re: Langford Fits in Well with the Young Core
« Reply #36 on: June 24, 2019, 08:40:07 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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I'm not sure about Langford the most

It seems like one of those pure potential/reputation picks vs someone to be excited about at this moment

Unlike Williams, Edwards and even Waters.... Langford looks raw.  He has "natural" playground type moves + physical tools

but if you look at his college games in depth...  when he doesn't have the ball or off ball defense ,  he looks a little lazy,  disengaged

Not saying he can't learn, catch on, work on becoming a solid pro

But i wouldn't be surprised one bit if his future potential is coming off the bench and giving a team 10-12 points as a 6th man type. Sub in and out late in games to get you a bucket maybe

Re: Langford Fits in Well with the Young Core
« Reply #37 on: June 25, 2019, 06:02:04 AM »

Offline Who

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Langford reminds me of Dennis Smith Jr in terms of almost being split down the middle between reasons you should believe in him (handles, size and athleticism, rebounding, gets to FT line, PnR threat, scoring potential) and red flags why you shouldn't believe in him (dodgy jumper, doesn't turn corner well, lazy effort off the ball on both ends of the court).

I was worried about Dennis Smith Jr as a top 10 pick but I am happy to take that risk at #14 with Langford. A worthwhile risk for a mid first round pick.


I'm not sure about Langford the most

But yeah, same here. Langford is the question mark.

We know what we're getting from Williams and Edwards. They are solid picks.

Langford is the risky pick. An upside pick. Maybe it pans out. Maybe it doesn't. But I like the risk for the draft slot we got him at.

Re: Langford Fits in Well with the Young Core
« Reply #38 on: June 25, 2019, 07:57:54 AM »

Offline JBcat

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Langford reminds me of Dennis Smith Jr in terms of almost being split down the middle between reasons you should believe in him (handles, size and athleticism, rebounding, gets to FT line, PnR threat, scoring potential) and red flags why you shouldn't believe in him (dodgy jumper, doesn't turn corner well, lazy effort off the ball on both ends of the court).

I was worried about Dennis Smith Jr as a top 10 pick but I am happy to take that risk at #14 with Langford. A worthwhile risk for a mid first round pick.


I'm not sure about Langford the most

But yeah, same here. Langford is the question mark.

We know what we're getting from Williams and Edwards. They are solid picks.

Langford is the risky pick. An upside pick. Maybe it pans out. Maybe it doesn't. But I like the risk for the draft slot we got him at.

Interesting comparison.  I see Smith JR as someone who only really plays the point at 6’3” or maybe more of a combo guard.  Langford at 6’6” is more of a wing (who knows maybe he can play some point).  Regarding his jumper I want to see what it looks like without the thumb injury.  Regarding how athletic he is I think of Smith Jr having crazy hops, and Langford a good athlete but more of a grounded game, or maybe I just need to see more of him.

Re: Langford Fits in Well with the Young Core
« Reply #39 on: June 25, 2019, 08:40:10 AM »

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Langford reminds me of Dennis Smith Jr in terms of almost being split down the middle between reasons you should believe in him (handles, size and athleticism, rebounding, gets to FT line, PnR threat, scoring potential) and red flags why you shouldn't believe in him (dodgy jumper, doesn't turn corner well, lazy effort off the ball on both ends of the court).

I was worried about Dennis Smith Jr as a top 10 pick but I am happy to take that risk at #14 with Langford. A worthwhile risk for a mid first round pick.


I'm not sure about Langford the most

But yeah, same here. Langford is the question mark.

We know what we're getting from Williams and Edwards. They are solid picks.

Langford is the risky pick. An upside pick. Maybe it pans out. Maybe it doesn't. But I like the risk for the draft slot we got him at.

Interesting comparison.  I see Smith JR as someone who only really plays the point at 6’3” or maybe more of a combo guard.  Langford at 6’6” is more of a wing (who knows maybe he can play some point).  Regarding his jumper I want to see what it looks like without the thumb injury.  Regarding how athletic he is I think of Smith Jr having crazy hops, and Langford a good athlete but more of a grounded game, or maybe I just need to see more of him.

I don't mean their games are comparable. I mean more in terms of ... ugh, words to describe.

Half their game portrays them as a blue chip prospect. The other half of their game (holes in their game) portrays them as someone who isn't going to make it (as a star player).

Two halves diametrically opposed. A strange mix of great signs and red flags. Half and half.


.......

That is why I liked Brandon Jennings as a comp for Dennis Smith Jr coming into that draft. Someone with the raw talent to be a high end player (both Jennings & Smith Jr) if they developed it but are unlikely to do so. More likely to be just a solid PG.

I see the same for Langford. Most likely just a solid rotation player SG but there is an upside for a lot more.

Although in terms of risk vs draft position = I am happy to take that risk with Langford because of where Boston got him (mid first). That is a great place to take a risk on a talent like this. I was uncomfortable with it with Dennis Smith Jr (#7 or #8 pick or whatever he was) but for a mid-first? To get a talent like this. That is fantastic.

Re: Langford fits in well with the young core
« Reply #40 on: June 25, 2019, 09:56:05 AM »

Offline Silky

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The more I watch the more i dislike.

I dont like players that give up on defemse and play completely disinterested on that end.

I also dont like when I see teammates drop their hands when a player gets the ball. (That indicates they know they are not getting it back) right now I wouldnt value him more than rozier.

His off ball awareness really does suck right now. If he wants to become anything in the league then he needs to sort it out. I think Brad's system will force him to learn it though, the read and react doesn't allow you to switch off because you can always be involved. And he'll need to get that if he wants to see time on the floor
Which really makes drafting him at #14 questionable. The chances of him hitting his ceiling isn't really that high, and even if he does it's not like he'll be head and shoulders above other prospects available at #14 assuming they also hit their ceilings (which is more likely to happen imo).
Not sure I agree with that. On the ball he is very good, he finishes through contact and as a defender he's excellent at defending the ball.

Every player has flaws they must overcome. LeBron had no jumper coming out of high school..

Langford's flaws are very correctable with application. What makes him a great pick at 14 is his offensive ability at this age. He's got a game that will translate very well to the NBA. Much more so than other guys in that range like Doumbouya or Bidatze

He has a far from complete offensive game.

He actually had poor playmaking and a pretty broken shot.

I mean in a vacuum he will go out and score points. He will keep the ball when doubled etc and not pass teammates and will have middle if the road efficiencies in the nba...but sure.


He has a long way to go. A long way. Like he is at least 2 years away from sniffing 30mins a game on a successful nba team
Who were the 3 guys you wanted?
Goga at 14, second choice was NAW at 14
my choices at 20 went early (samanic) followed by any of my choices at 24, although trade was good too.
My Choices at 24 was Little, Johnson, Kabengele, Okpala, Porter Jr and Fernando
at 33 I was screaming for Fernando, But I dont hate Edwards.


right now, Langford is looking like Demar Derozan, with worse passing, worse shooting and more disinterested defense. So a player he gives all when he has the ball, doesnt like to pass, is completely disinterested on defense, like to take long 2s from just outside the midrange and likes to get to the line. Ugly basketball.


Really good breakdown of him here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FnZrEmorIw


The one thing a majority of people hated about Kyrie and blamed him for, and Rozier as well and to a lesser extent morris was their propensity to stop the ball and kill the offense. This kid has pine tar on his hands. The ball rarely ever come out of it unless he is shooting it....at 27%.

Re: Langford fits in well with the young core
« Reply #41 on: June 25, 2019, 10:07:05 AM »

Online Walker Wiggle

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The more I watch the more i dislike.

I dont like players that give up on defemse and play completely disinterested on that end.

I also dont like when I see teammates drop their hands when a player gets the ball. (That indicates they know they are not getting it back) right now I wouldnt value him more than rozier.

His off ball awareness really does suck right now. If he wants to become anything in the league then he needs to sort it out. I think Brad's system will force him to learn it though, the read and react doesn't allow you to switch off because you can always be involved. And he'll need to get that if he wants to see time on the floor
Which really makes drafting him at #14 questionable. The chances of him hitting his ceiling isn't really that high, and even if he does it's not like he'll be head and shoulders above other prospects available at #14 assuming they also hit their ceilings (which is more likely to happen imo).
Not sure I agree with that. On the ball he is very good, he finishes through contact and as a defender he's excellent at defending the ball.

Every player has flaws they must overcome. LeBron had no jumper coming out of high school..

Langford's flaws are very correctable with application. What makes him a great pick at 14 is his offensive ability at this age. He's got a game that will translate very well to the NBA. Much more so than other guys in that range like Doumbouya or Bidatze

He has a far from complete offensive game.

He actually had poor playmaking and a pretty broken shot.

I mean in a vacuum he will go out and score points. He will keep the ball when doubled etc and not pass teammates and will have middle if the road efficiencies in the nba...but sure.


He has a long way to go. A long way. Like he is at least 2 years away from sniffing 30mins a game on a successful nba team
Who were the 3 guys you wanted?
Goga at 14, second choice was NAW at 14
my choices at 20 went early (samanic) followed by any of my choices at 24, although trade was good too.
My Choices at 24 was Little, Johnson, Kabengele, Okpala, Porter Jr and Fernando
at 33 I was screaming for Fernando, But I dont hate Edwards.


right now, Langford is looking like Demar Derozan, with worse passing, worse shooting and more disinterested defense. So a player he gives all when he has the ball, doesnt like to pass, is completely disinterested on defense, like to take long 2s from just outside the midrange and likes to get to the line. Ugly basketball.


Really good breakdown of him here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FnZrEmorIw


The one thing a majority of people hated about Kyrie and blamed him for, and Rozier as well and to a lesser extent morris was their propensity to stop the ball and kill the offense. This kid has pine tar on his hands. The ball rarely ever come out of it unless he is shooting it....at 27%.

The challenge in drafting a kid who's 19 is that you're projecting what he'll be in many years' time. Is he a lifetime 27% 3pt shooter who will never learn to pass and will permanently be a "ball stopper"? Or are some of these things correctable because, you know, he's a year removed from high school?

It's entirely legitimate to criticize the choice and express skepticism that a prospect's flaws can be improved upon, but we should not talk about these kids as if they are finished products at such a young age.

Re: Langford fits in well with the young core
« Reply #42 on: June 25, 2019, 11:00:44 AM »

Offline aingeforthree

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The more I watch the more i dislike.

I dont like players that give up on defemse and play completely disinterested on that end.

I also dont like when I see teammates drop their hands when a player gets the ball. (That indicates they know they are not getting it back) right now I wouldnt value him more than rozier.

His off ball awareness really does suck right now. If he wants to become anything in the league then he needs to sort it out. I think Brad's system will force him to learn it though, the read and react doesn't allow you to switch off because you can always be involved. And he'll need to get that if he wants to see time on the floor
Which really makes drafting him at #14 questionable. The chances of him hitting his ceiling isn't really that high, and even if he does it's not like he'll be head and shoulders above other prospects available at #14 assuming they also hit their ceilings (which is more likely to happen imo).
Not sure I agree with that. On the ball he is very good, he finishes through contact and as a defender he's excellent at defending the ball.

Every player has flaws they must overcome. LeBron had no jumper coming out of high school..

Langford's flaws are very correctable with application. What makes him a great pick at 14 is his offensive ability at this age. He's got a game that will translate very well to the NBA. Much more so than other guys in that range like Doumbouya or Bidatze

He has a far from complete offensive game.

He actually had poor playmaking and a pretty broken shot.

I mean in a vacuum he will go out and score points. He will keep the ball when doubled etc and not pass teammates and will have middle if the road efficiencies in the nba...but sure.


He has a long way to go. A long way. Like he is at least 2 years away from sniffing 30mins a game on a successful nba team
Who were the 3 guys you wanted?
Goga at 14, second choice was NAW at 14
my choices at 20 went early (samanic) followed by any of my choices at 24, although trade was good too.
My Choices at 24 was Little, Johnson, Kabengele, Okpala, Porter Jr and Fernando
at 33 I was screaming for Fernando, But I dont hate Edwards.


right now, Langford is looking like Demar Derozan, with worse passing, worse shooting and more disinterested defense. So a player he gives all when he has the ball, doesnt like to pass, is completely disinterested on defense, like to take long 2s from just outside the midrange and likes to get to the line. Ugly basketball.


Really good breakdown of him here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FnZrEmorIw


The one thing a majority of people hated about Kyrie and blamed him for, and Rozier as well and to a lesser extent morris was their propensity to stop the ball and kill the offense. This kid has pine tar on his hands. The ball rarely ever come out of it unless he is shooting it....at 27%.

The challenge in drafting a kid who's 19 is that you're projecting what he'll be in many years' time. Is he a lifetime 27% 3pt shooter who will never learn to pass and will permanently be a "ball stopper"? Or are some of these things correctable because, you know, he's a year removed from high school?

It's entirely legitimate to criticize the choice and express skepticism that a prospect's flaws can be improved upon, but we should not talk about these kids as if they are finished products at such a young age.

Key words here being, “a year removed from high school”.

Add in a key injury and there you go. Far from a finished product. Won’t know for a few years.

I loved all of the picks. Ultra talented, high character.....do they have the want to get better ? It sure seems like it.

Re: Langford Fits in Well with the Young Core
« Reply #43 on: June 25, 2019, 11:11:25 AM »

Offline rollie mass

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A YEAR REMOVED FROM HIGH SCHOOL-played most of the year with ligament damage to his thumb while being a super elite finisher.
The kids father taught him to be stoic.Brad will like that
I like the way he changes gear so smoothly, it is almost unnoticeable,He is a very good offensive rebounder always a good sign .
When the strength and conditioning coaches get a hold of him and as he works on lateral and burst drills maybe he will pick up some power.He stayed away from scales at Combine measurements??.Marcus packed on some muscle and mass but backed off ate right and got faster.
As to ball handling  i saw two unforced ball handling errors directly caused by thumb while watching tape.He is patient in the lane a good sign.
The coaching staff will identify all the little things that make a difference.

He is 19 years old  and played in pain scoring well in a very good conference.

Re: Langford fits in well with the young core
« Reply #44 on: June 25, 2019, 11:18:55 AM »

Offline Silky

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The more I watch the more i dislike.

I dont like players that give up on defemse and play completely disinterested on that end.

I also dont like when I see teammates drop their hands when a player gets the ball. (That indicates they know they are not getting it back) right now I wouldnt value him more than rozier.

His off ball awareness really does suck right now. If he wants to become anything in the league then he needs to sort it out. I think Brad's system will force him to learn it though, the read and react doesn't allow you to switch off because you can always be involved. And he'll need to get that if he wants to see time on the floor
Which really makes drafting him at #14 questionable. The chances of him hitting his ceiling isn't really that high, and even if he does it's not like he'll be head and shoulders above other prospects available at #14 assuming they also hit their ceilings (which is more likely to happen imo).
Not sure I agree with that. On the ball he is very good, he finishes through contact and as a defender he's excellent at defending the ball.

Every player has flaws they must overcome. LeBron had no jumper coming out of high school..

Langford's flaws are very correctable with application. What makes him a great pick at 14 is his offensive ability at this age. He's got a game that will translate very well to the NBA. Much more so than other guys in that range like Doumbouya or Bidatze

He has a far from complete offensive game.

He actually had poor playmaking and a pretty broken shot.

I mean in a vacuum he will go out and score points. He will keep the ball when doubled etc and not pass teammates and will have middle if the road efficiencies in the nba...but sure.


He has a long way to go. A long way. Like he is at least 2 years away from sniffing 30mins a game on a successful nba team
Who were the 3 guys you wanted?
Goga at 14, second choice was NAW at 14
my choices at 20 went early (samanic) followed by any of my choices at 24, although trade was good too.
My Choices at 24 was Little, Johnson, Kabengele, Okpala, Porter Jr and Fernando
at 33 I was screaming for Fernando, But I dont hate Edwards.


right now, Langford is looking like Demar Derozan, with worse passing, worse shooting and more disinterested defense. So a player he gives all when he has the ball, doesnt like to pass, is completely disinterested on defense, like to take long 2s from just outside the midrange and likes to get to the line. Ugly basketball.


Really good breakdown of him here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FnZrEmorIw


The one thing a majority of people hated about Kyrie and blamed him for, and Rozier as well and to a lesser extent morris was their propensity to stop the ball and kill the offense. This kid has pine tar on his hands. The ball rarely ever come out of it unless he is shooting it....at 27%.

The challenge in drafting a kid who's 19 is that you're projecting what he'll be in many years' time. Is he a lifetime 27% 3pt shooter who will never learn to pass and will permanently be a "ball stopper"? Or are some of these things correctable because, you know, he's a year removed from high school?

It's entirely legitimate to criticize the choice and express skepticism that a prospect's flaws can be improved upon, but we should not talk about these kids as if they are finished products at such a young age.

History dictates that a player who fits Romeo's mold and mindset do not suddenly come out of that regardless of if he is 19 or not.

How many players have come into the league with Romeo's question marks and have changed?
In fact, how many kids come into the nba with low offensive and defensive IQ and low defensive drive and turn that around.

With the shot, I am sure with lots of practice and a shooting coach he can improve that. the heart and hustle for defense? the reading off offense and a willingness to pass? not so sure. Those are not easily correctable with a coach and changing mechanics, those are deficiencies between the ears.

another Terry Rozier.

But at least fans are doing all they can to like him, already making excuses for him.

"only 19"
"only 1 year out of highschool"
"had a boo boo on his thumb"