Is Leonard the new best player of the league?

[SparzWizard]

We forgetting about Kevin Durant already

[celticsclay]

We forgetting about Kevin Durant already

Kind of almost impossible to judge him unless he goes to a new team.

[GreenEnvy]

Yeah I’d take him over anyone. Curry and Harden may be better offensively, but he’s light years better defensively than both.

Durant is his biggest competition. When factoring in age, I’ll safely take Leonard over him.

[PhoSita]

Do you realize the statistical drop off between players at 33 and 35 is a complete cliff though? I realize Lebron is a freak, so this is already giving him a huge benefit of the doubt. Look at this article:

http://wagesofwins.com/nba-players-age-like-milk/

If Lebron was the biggest super man in the world maybe he only declines 20% from 2017 playoffs to 2018 playoffs and 30% from 2018 to 2019. That would be a miracle. Suggesting he can do what Leonard is doing now at 35.5 (his birthday is december) seems really ludicrous and completely off-base from the history of the nba.

Your point about aging is well taken, but I think LeBron has already proven to be an exception to a lot of those trends.


I'm just saying that I think it's premature to declare that LeBron is "not even top 5" anymore.

He's still in the uppermost tier of players, at least when we're talking about who is capable of dominating a post-season series.


My position is that there is no clear cut "best player in the world" right now, because there are so many guys for whom you can make an argument and so much of who ends up on top depends on the context -- luck, teammates, injuries, schemes, opponent matchups.  I think that's a really good thing.

[GreenFaith1819]

I'd say yes, easily.

He is the Little Fundamental to Tim Duncan's Big Fundamental.

He will NEVER get the recognition of a LeBron or KD but yeah he is the Real Deal easily.

[celticsclay]

Do you realize the statistical drop off between players at 33 and 35 is a complete cliff though? I realize Lebron is a freak, so this is already giving him a huge benefit of the doubt. Look at this article:

http://wagesofwins.com/nba-players-age-like-milk/

If Lebron was the biggest super man in the world maybe he only declines 20% from 2017 playoffs to 2018 playoffs and 30% from 2018 to 2019. That would be a miracle. Suggesting he can do what Leonard is doing now at 35.5 (his birthday is december) seems really ludicrous and completely off-base from the history of the nba.

Your point about aging is well taken, but I think LeBron has already proven to be an exception to a lot of those trends.


I'm just saying that I think it's premature to declare that LeBron is "not even top 5" anymore.

He's still in the uppermost tier of players, at least when we're talking about who is capable of dominating a post-season series.


My position is that there is no clear cut "best player in the world" right now, because there are so many guys for whom you can make an argument and so much of who ends up on top depends on the context -- luck, teammates, injuries, schemes, opponent matchups.  I think that's a really good thing.

I would say he has already been an exception playing at this level at 33 and 34... I am not really ready to suspend believe any further for him not regressing significantly this year (and he did regress pretty significantly last year in my eyes). Also, while we can say we didn't get to see him get into playoff mode last year, he made a public comment about activitating playoff mode early last year

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2019/03/lakers-lebron-james-playoff-mode

and he didn't have enough left in the tank to do it as the Lakers lost to a series of terrible teams....

Thinking he can do what Leonard is doing these playoffs (one of the all time great nba playoff performances) a year down the road from now, is still in my opinion, like i said earlier absolutely crazy.

[Moranis]

Do you realize the statistical drop off between players at 33 and 35 is a complete cliff though? I realize Lebron is a freak, so this is already giving him a huge benefit of the doubt. Look at this article:

http://wagesofwins.com/nba-players-age-like-milk/

If Lebron was the biggest super man in the world maybe he only declines 20% from 2017 playoffs to 2018 playoffs and 30% from 2018 to 2019. That would be a miracle. Suggesting he can do what Leonard is doing now at 35.5 (his birthday is december) seems really ludicrous and completely off-base from the history of the nba.

Your point about aging is well taken, but I think LeBron has already proven to be an exception to a lot of those trends.


I'm just saying that I think it's premature to declare that LeBron is "not even top 5" anymore.

He's still in the uppermost tier of players, at least when we're talking about who is capable of dominating a post-season series.


My position is that there is no clear cut "best player in the world" right now, because there are so many guys for whom you can make an argument and so much of who ends up on top depends on the context -- luck, teammates, injuries, schemes, opponent matchups.  I think that's a really good thing.

I would say he has already been an exception playing at this level at 33 and 34... I am not really ready to suspend believe any further for him not regressing significantly this year (and he did regress pretty significantly last year in my eyes). Also, while we can say we didn't get to see him get into playoff mode last year, he made a public comment about activitating playoff mode early last year

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2019/03/lakers-lebron-james-playoff-mode

and he didn't have enough left in the tank to do it as the Lakers lost to a series of terrible teams....

Thinking he can do what Leonard is doing these playoffs (one of the all time great nba playoff performances) a year down the road from now, is still in my opinion, like i said earlier absolutely crazy.

your eyes deceive you.  Basically every defensive metric said Lebron was better in LA than he was his last year in Cleveland.  And his counting stats were basically the same.  Obviously he missed a lot more games and his shooting percentages were all down, which affected his offensive efficiency, but he was still scoring, rebounding, and passing better than his career averages.  And Lebron clearly kicked it up a very large amount in the playoffs in Cleveland significantly improving upon his regular season counting stats and his advanced metrics across the board. 

And let's be clear, once Leonard was actually guarding Giannis, his efficiency suffered a lot.  In fact, his efficiency has gone down a lot since game 4 of the Philly series, when he was asked to do a lot more.  8 of the first 9 playoff games he shot over 54%, including 5 at 60% or better.  Since that time he has been above 46.2% just 1 time.  Kawhi quite simply isn't used to running an offense and he is getting tired.  It takes so much out of a player to bring the ball up the court, direct the offense, and have everything run through you.  Kawhi, quite simply, has never been that type of player and it is also why he can be locked in defensively far more frequently than many of the other great players.  It is also why I've always been less high on him than others are.  I still think he is the 5th best player in the world, but I'd absolutely have Giannis, Durant, Curry, and James ahead of him and I wouldn't give it a second thought.

[mobilija]

Do you realize the statistical drop off between players at 33 and 35 is a complete cliff though? I realize Lebron is a freak, so this is already giving him a huge benefit of the doubt. Look at this article:

http://wagesofwins.com/nba-players-age-like-milk/

If Lebron was the biggest super man in the world maybe he only declines 20% from 2017 playoffs to 2018 playoffs and 30% from 2018 to 2019. That would be a miracle. Suggesting he can do what Leonard is doing now at 35.5 (his birthday is december) seems really ludicrous and completely off-base from the history of the nba.

Your point about aging is well taken, but I think LeBron has already proven to be an exception to a lot of those trends.


I'm just saying that I think it's premature to declare that LeBron is "not even top 5" anymore.

He's still in the uppermost tier of players, at least when we're talking about who is capable of dominating a post-season series.


My position is that there is no clear cut "best player in the world" right now, because there are so many guys for whom you can make an argument and so much of who ends up on top depends on the context -- luck, teammates, injuries, schemes, opponent matchups.  I think that's a really good thing.

I would say he has already been an exception playing at this level at 33 and 34... I am not really ready to suspend believe any further for him not regressing significantly this year (and he did regress pretty significantly last year in my eyes). Also, while we can say we didn't get to see him get into playoff mode last year, he made a public comment about activitating playoff mode early last year

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2019/03/lakers-lebron-james-playoff-mode

and he didn't have enough left in the tank to do it as the Lakers lost to a series of terrible teams....

Thinking he can do what Leonard is doing these playoffs (one of the all time great nba playoff performances) a year down the road from now, is still in my opinion, like i said earlier absolutely crazy.

your eyes deceive you.  Basically every defensive metric said Lebron was better in LA than he was his last year in Cleveland.  And his counting stats were basically the same.  Obviously he missed a lot more games and his shooting percentages were all down, which affected his offensive efficiency, but he was still scoring, rebounding, and passing better than his career averages.  And Lebron clearly kicked it up a very large amount in the playoffs in Cleveland significantly improving upon his regular season counting stats and his advanced metrics across the board. 

And let's be clear, once Leonard was actually guarding Giannis, his efficiency suffered a lot.  In fact, his efficiency has gone down a lot since game 4 of the Philly series, when he was asked to do a lot more.  8 of the first 9 playoff games he shot over 54%, including 5 at 60% or better.  Since that time he has been above 46.2% just 1 time.  Kawhi quite simply isn't used to running an offense and he is getting tired.  It takes so much out of a player to bring the ball up the court, direct the offense, and have everything run through you.  Kawhi, quite simply, has never been that type of player and it is also why he can be locked in defensively far more frequently than many of the other great players.  It is also why I've always been less high on him than others are.  I still think he is the 5th best player in the world, but I'd absolutely have Giannis, Durant, Curry, and James ahead of him and I wouldn't give it a second thought.

You just brushed off Lebron’s diminished overall efficiency, essentially stating it wasn’t a factor in determining his greatness and then turned around and stated Leonard, when guarding one of the other top players in the league, wasn’t as great because he was inefficient.

Your logic confuses me.

[Moranis]

Do you realize the statistical drop off between players at 33 and 35 is a complete cliff though? I realize Lebron is a freak, so this is already giving him a huge benefit of the doubt. Look at this article:

http://wagesofwins.com/nba-players-age-like-milk/

If Lebron was the biggest super man in the world maybe he only declines 20% from 2017 playoffs to 2018 playoffs and 30% from 2018 to 2019. That would be a miracle. Suggesting he can do what Leonard is doing now at 35.5 (his birthday is december) seems really ludicrous and completely off-base from the history of the nba.

Your point about aging is well taken, but I think LeBron has already proven to be an exception to a lot of those trends.


I'm just saying that I think it's premature to declare that LeBron is "not even top 5" anymore.

He's still in the uppermost tier of players, at least when we're talking about who is capable of dominating a post-season series.


My position is that there is no clear cut "best player in the world" right now, because there are so many guys for whom you can make an argument and so much of who ends up on top depends on the context -- luck, teammates, injuries, schemes, opponent matchups.  I think that's a really good thing.

I would say he has already been an exception playing at this level at 33 and 34... I am not really ready to suspend believe any further for him not regressing significantly this year (and he did regress pretty significantly last year in my eyes). Also, while we can say we didn't get to see him get into playoff mode last year, he made a public comment about activitating playoff mode early last year

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2019/03/lakers-lebron-james-playoff-mode

and he didn't have enough left in the tank to do it as the Lakers lost to a series of terrible teams....

Thinking he can do what Leonard is doing these playoffs (one of the all time great nba playoff performances) a year down the road from now, is still in my opinion, like i said earlier absolutely crazy.

your eyes deceive you.  Basically every defensive metric said Lebron was better in LA than he was his last year in Cleveland.  And his counting stats were basically the same.  Obviously he missed a lot more games and his shooting percentages were all down, which affected his offensive efficiency, but he was still scoring, rebounding, and passing better than his career averages.  And Lebron clearly kicked it up a very large amount in the playoffs in Cleveland significantly improving upon his regular season counting stats and his advanced metrics across the board. 

And let's be clear, once Leonard was actually guarding Giannis, his efficiency suffered a lot.  In fact, his efficiency has gone down a lot since game 4 of the Philly series, when he was asked to do a lot more.  8 of the first 9 playoff games he shot over 54%, including 5 at 60% or better.  Since that time he has been above 46.2% just 1 time.  Kawhi quite simply isn't used to running an offense and he is getting tired.  It takes so much out of a player to bring the ball up the court, direct the offense, and have everything run through you.  Kawhi, quite simply, has never been that type of player and it is also why he can be locked in defensively far more frequently than many of the other great players.  It is also why I've always been less high on him than others are.  I still think he is the 5th best player in the world, but I'd absolutely have Giannis, Durant, Curry, and James ahead of him and I wouldn't give it a second thought.

You just brushed off Lebron’s diminished overall efficiency, essentially stating it wasn’t a factor in determining his greatness and then turned around and stated Leonard, when guarding one of the other top players in the league, wasn’t as great because he was inefficient.

Your logic confuses me.

No I'm saying Leonard's diminished efficiency made him much worse than James.  Leonard can't handle the load like the 4 guys I listed (yes even Giannis - put their numbers side by side, the Bucks lost because of the supporting cast).  Leonard shot 34.4% from 3 against the Bucks.  He was 44.2% from the field against the Bucks.  He was barely over 4 assists a game and he was under 30 points per game.  The last 3 games against the Sixers, Leonard was 2 of 17 from 3.  Even in game 7 where he scored 41 points, it took him 39 shots. 

Leonard's ECF was far worse than James was in the ECF last year against Boston.  In fact, James was essentially better in every single playoff series he had last year (James shot pretty poorly against the Raptors), then Leonard was against the Bucks.  Because James, quite simply just does more than Leonard and always has.  When James is locked in and focused, he is still better than Leonard.

[celticsclay]

Do you realize the statistical drop off between players at 33 and 35 is a complete cliff though? I realize Lebron is a freak, so this is already giving him a huge benefit of the doubt. Look at this article:

http://wagesofwins.com/nba-players-age-like-milk/

If Lebron was the biggest super man in the world maybe he only declines 20% from 2017 playoffs to 2018 playoffs and 30% from 2018 to 2019. That would be a miracle. Suggesting he can do what Leonard is doing now at 35.5 (his birthday is december) seems really ludicrous and completely off-base from the history of the nba.

Your point about aging is well taken, but I think LeBron has already proven to be an exception to a lot of those trends.


I'm just saying that I think it's premature to declare that LeBron is "not even top 5" anymore.

He's still in the uppermost tier of players, at least when we're talking about who is capable of dominating a post-season series.


My position is that there is no clear cut "best player in the world" right now, because there are so many guys for whom you can make an argument and so much of who ends up on top depends on the context -- luck, teammates, injuries, schemes, opponent matchups.  I think that's a really good thing.

I would say he has already been an exception playing at this level at 33 and 34... I am not really ready to suspend believe any further for him not regressing significantly this year (and he did regress pretty significantly last year in my eyes). Also, while we can say we didn't get to see him get into playoff mode last year, he made a public comment about activitating playoff mode early last year

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2019/03/lakers-lebron-james-playoff-mode

and he didn't have enough left in the tank to do it as the Lakers lost to a series of terrible teams....

Thinking he can do what Leonard is doing these playoffs (one of the all time great nba playoff performances) a year down the road from now, is still in my opinion, like i said earlier absolutely crazy.

your eyes deceive you.  Basically every defensive metric said Lebron was better in LA than he was his last year in Cleveland.  And his counting stats were basically the same.  Obviously he missed a lot more games and his shooting percentages were all down, which affected his offensive efficiency, but he was still scoring, rebounding, and passing better than his career averages.  And Lebron clearly kicked it up a very large amount in the playoffs in Cleveland significantly improving upon his regular season counting stats and his advanced metrics across the board. 

And let's be clear, once Leonard was actually guarding Giannis, his efficiency suffered a lot.  In fact, his efficiency has gone down a lot since game 4 of the Philly series, when he was asked to do a lot more.  8 of the first 9 playoff games he shot over 54%, including 5 at 60% or better.  Since that time he has been above 46.2% just 1 time.  Kawhi quite simply isn't used to running an offense and he is getting tired.  It takes so much out of a player to bring the ball up the court, direct the offense, and have everything run through you.  Kawhi, quite simply, has never been that type of player and it is also why he can be locked in defensively far more frequently than many of the other great players.  It is also why I've always been less high on him than others are.  I still think he is the 5th best player in the world, but I'd absolutely have Giannis, Durant, Curry, and James ahead of him and I wouldn't give it a second thought.

You just brushed off Lebron’s diminished overall efficiency, essentially stating it wasn’t a factor in determining his greatness and then turned around and stated Leonard, when guarding one of the other top players in the league, wasn’t as great because he was inefficient.

Your logic confuses me.

No I'm saying Leonard's diminished efficiency made him much worse than James.  Leonard can't handle the load like the 4 guys I listed (yes even Giannis - put their numbers side by side, the Bucks lost because of the supporting cast).  Leonard shot 34.4% from 3 against the Bucks.  He was 44.2% from the field against the Bucks.  He was barely over 4 assists a game and he was under 30 points per game.  The last 3 games against the Sixers, Leonard was 2 of 17 from 3.  Even in game 7 where he scored 41 points, it took him 39 shots. 

Leonard's ECF was far worse than James was in the ECF last year against Boston.  In fact, James was essentially better in every single playoff series he had last year (James shot pretty poorly against the Raptors), then Leonard was against the Bucks.  Because James, quite simply just does more than Leonard and always has.  When James is locked in and focused, he is still better than Leonard.

You don’t understand aging it seems like. This is such an absurd take. Lebron was one of top 3 players of all time but he is slowing down and my eyes are not decieving me. I’ve also noticed how you use counting stats when it suits your argument and advanced stats when it suits your argument. Try to be a little more consistent man.

[Moranis]

Do you realize the statistical drop off between players at 33 and 35 is a complete cliff though? I realize Lebron is a freak, so this is already giving him a huge benefit of the doubt. Look at this article:

http://wagesofwins.com/nba-players-age-like-milk/

If Lebron was the biggest super man in the world maybe he only declines 20% from 2017 playoffs to 2018 playoffs and 30% from 2018 to 2019. That would be a miracle. Suggesting he can do what Leonard is doing now at 35.5 (his birthday is december) seems really ludicrous and completely off-base from the history of the nba.

Your point about aging is well taken, but I think LeBron has already proven to be an exception to a lot of those trends.


I'm just saying that I think it's premature to declare that LeBron is "not even top 5" anymore.

He's still in the uppermost tier of players, at least when we're talking about who is capable of dominating a post-season series.


My position is that there is no clear cut "best player in the world" right now, because there are so many guys for whom you can make an argument and so much of who ends up on top depends on the context -- luck, teammates, injuries, schemes, opponent matchups.  I think that's a really good thing.

I would say he has already been an exception playing at this level at 33 and 34... I am not really ready to suspend believe any further for him not regressing significantly this year (and he did regress pretty significantly last year in my eyes). Also, while we can say we didn't get to see him get into playoff mode last year, he made a public comment about activitating playoff mode early last year

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2019/03/lakers-lebron-james-playoff-mode

and he didn't have enough left in the tank to do it as the Lakers lost to a series of terrible teams....

Thinking he can do what Leonard is doing these playoffs (one of the all time great nba playoff performances) a year down the road from now, is still in my opinion, like i said earlier absolutely crazy.

your eyes deceive you.  Basically every defensive metric said Lebron was better in LA than he was his last year in Cleveland.  And his counting stats were basically the same.  Obviously he missed a lot more games and his shooting percentages were all down, which affected his offensive efficiency, but he was still scoring, rebounding, and passing better than his career averages.  And Lebron clearly kicked it up a very large amount in the playoffs in Cleveland significantly improving upon his regular season counting stats and his advanced metrics across the board. 

And let's be clear, once Leonard was actually guarding Giannis, his efficiency suffered a lot.  In fact, his efficiency has gone down a lot since game 4 of the Philly series, when he was asked to do a lot more.  8 of the first 9 playoff games he shot over 54%, including 5 at 60% or better.  Since that time he has been above 46.2% just 1 time.  Kawhi quite simply isn't used to running an offense and he is getting tired.  It takes so much out of a player to bring the ball up the court, direct the offense, and have everything run through you.  Kawhi, quite simply, has never been that type of player and it is also why he can be locked in defensively far more frequently than many of the other great players.  It is also why I've always been less high on him than others are.  I still think he is the 5th best player in the world, but I'd absolutely have Giannis, Durant, Curry, and James ahead of him and I wouldn't give it a second thought.

You just brushed off Lebron’s diminished overall efficiency, essentially stating it wasn’t a factor in determining his greatness and then turned around and stated Leonard, when guarding one of the other top players in the league, wasn’t as great because he was inefficient.

Your logic confuses me.

No I'm saying Leonard's diminished efficiency made him much worse than James.  Leonard can't handle the load like the 4 guys I listed (yes even Giannis - put their numbers side by side, the Bucks lost because of the supporting cast).  Leonard shot 34.4% from 3 against the Bucks.  He was 44.2% from the field against the Bucks.  He was barely over 4 assists a game and he was under 30 points per game.  The last 3 games against the Sixers, Leonard was 2 of 17 from 3.  Even in game 7 where he scored 41 points, it took him 39 shots. 

Leonard's ECF was far worse than James was in the ECF last year against Boston.  In fact, James was essentially better in every single playoff series he had last year (James shot pretty poorly against the Raptors), then Leonard was against the Bucks.  Because James, quite simply just does more than Leonard and always has.  When James is locked in and focused, he is still better than Leonard.

You don’t understand aging it seems like. This is such an absurd take. Lebron was one of top 3 players of all time but he is slowing down and my eyes are not decieving me. I’ve also noticed how you use counting stats when it suits your argument and advanced stats when it suits your argument. Try to be a little more consistent man.

I used both counting and advanced stats in my argument.  Perhaps you should read the argument before commenting.  Might save some time.

[celticsclay]

Do you realize the statistical drop off between players at 33 and 35 is a complete cliff though? I realize Lebron is a freak, so this is already giving him a huge benefit of the doubt. Look at this article:

http://wagesofwins.com/nba-players-age-like-milk/

If Lebron was the biggest super man in the world maybe he only declines 20% from 2017 playoffs to 2018 playoffs and 30% from 2018 to 2019. That would be a miracle. Suggesting he can do what Leonard is doing now at 35.5 (his birthday is december) seems really ludicrous and completely off-base from the history of the nba.

Your point about aging is well taken, but I think LeBron has already proven to be an exception to a lot of those trends.


I'm just saying that I think it's premature to declare that LeBron is "not even top 5" anymore.

He's still in the uppermost tier of players, at least when we're talking about who is capable of dominating a post-season series.


My position is that there is no clear cut "best player in the world" right now, because there are so many guys for whom you can make an argument and so much of who ends up on top depends on the context -- luck, teammates, injuries, schemes, opponent matchups.  I think that's a really good thing.

I would say he has already been an exception playing at this level at 33 and 34... I am not really ready to suspend believe any further for him not regressing significantly this year (and he did regress pretty significantly last year in my eyes). Also, while we can say we didn't get to see him get into playoff mode last year, he made a public comment about activitating playoff mode early last year

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2019/03/lakers-lebron-james-playoff-mode

and he didn't have enough left in the tank to do it as the Lakers lost to a series of terrible teams....

Thinking he can do what Leonard is doing these playoffs (one of the all time great nba playoff performances) a year down the road from now, is still in my opinion, like i said earlier absolutely crazy.

your eyes deceive you.  Basically every defensive metric said Lebron was better in LA than he was his last year in Cleveland.  And his counting stats were basically the same.  Obviously he missed a lot more games and his shooting percentages were all down, which affected his offensive efficiency, but he was still scoring, rebounding, and passing better than his career averages.  And Lebron clearly kicked it up a very large amount in the playoffs in Cleveland significantly improving upon his regular season counting stats and his advanced metrics across the board. 

And let's be clear, once Leonard was actually guarding Giannis, his efficiency suffered a lot.  In fact, his efficiency has gone down a lot since game 4 of the Philly series, when he was asked to do a lot more.  8 of the first 9 playoff games he shot over 54%, including 5 at 60% or better.  Since that time he has been above 46.2% just 1 time.  Kawhi quite simply isn't used to running an offense and he is getting tired.  It takes so much out of a player to bring the ball up the court, direct the offense, and have everything run through you.  Kawhi, quite simply, has never been that type of player and it is also why he can be locked in defensively far more frequently than many of the other great players.  It is also why I've always been less high on him than others are.  I still think he is the 5th best player in the world, but I'd absolutely have Giannis, Durant, Curry, and James ahead of him and I wouldn't give it a second thought.

You just brushed off Lebron’s diminished overall efficiency, essentially stating it wasn’t a factor in determining his greatness and then turned around and stated Leonard, when guarding one of the other top players in the league, wasn’t as great because he was inefficient.

Your logic confuses me.

He is a Lebron fan and from Cleveland

[gouki88]

Do you realize the statistical drop off between players at 33 and 35 is a complete cliff though? I realize Lebron is a freak, so this is already giving him a huge benefit of the doubt. Look at this article:

http://wagesofwins.com/nba-players-age-like-milk/

If Lebron was the biggest super man in the world maybe he only declines 20% from 2017 playoffs to 2018 playoffs and 30% from 2018 to 2019. That would be a miracle. Suggesting he can do what Leonard is doing now at 35.5 (his birthday is december) seems really ludicrous and completely off-base from the history of the nba.

Your point about aging is well taken, but I think LeBron has already proven to be an exception to a lot of those trends.


I'm just saying that I think it's premature to declare that LeBron is "not even top 5" anymore.

He's still in the uppermost tier of players, at least when we're talking about who is capable of dominating a post-season series.


My position is that there is no clear cut "best player in the world" right now, because there are so many guys for whom you can make an argument and so much of who ends up on top depends on the context -- luck, teammates, injuries, schemes, opponent matchups.  I think that's a really good thing.

I would say he has already been an exception playing at this level at 33 and 34... I am not really ready to suspend believe any further for him not regressing significantly this year (and he did regress pretty significantly last year in my eyes). Also, while we can say we didn't get to see him get into playoff mode last year, he made a public comment about activitating playoff mode early last year

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2019/03/lakers-lebron-james-playoff-mode

and he didn't have enough left in the tank to do it as the Lakers lost to a series of terrible teams....

Thinking he can do what Leonard is doing these playoffs (one of the all time great nba playoff performances) a year down the road from now, is still in my opinion, like i said earlier absolutely crazy.

your eyes deceive you.  Basically every defensive metric said Lebron was better in LA than he was his last year in Cleveland.  And his counting stats were basically the same.  Obviously he missed a lot more games and his shooting percentages were all down, which affected his offensive efficiency, but he was still scoring, rebounding, and passing better than his career averages.  And Lebron clearly kicked it up a very large amount in the playoffs in Cleveland significantly improving upon his regular season counting stats and his advanced metrics across the board. 

And let's be clear, once Leonard was actually guarding Giannis, his efficiency suffered a lot.  In fact, his efficiency has gone down a lot since game 4 of the Philly series, when he was asked to do a lot more.  8 of the first 9 playoff games he shot over 54%, including 5 at 60% or better.  Since that time he has been above 46.2% just 1 time.  Kawhi quite simply isn't used to running an offense and he is getting tired.  It takes so much out of a player to bring the ball up the court, direct the offense, and have everything run through you.  Kawhi, quite simply, has never been that type of player and it is also why he can be locked in defensively far more frequently than many of the other great players.  It is also why I've always been less high on him than others are.  I still think he is the 5th best player in the world, but I'd absolutely have Giannis, Durant, Curry, and James ahead of him and I wouldn't give it a second thought.

You just brushed off Lebron’s diminished overall efficiency, essentially stating it wasn’t a factor in determining his greatness and then turned around and stated Leonard, when guarding one of the other top players in the league, wasn’t as great because he was inefficient.

Your logic confuses me.

No I'm saying Leonard's diminished efficiency made him much worse than James.  Leonard can't handle the load like the 4 guys I listed (yes even Giannis - put their numbers side by side, the Bucks lost because of the supporting cast).  Leonard shot 34.4% from 3 against the Bucks.  He was 44.2% from the field against the Bucks.  He was barely over 4 assists a game and he was under 30 points per game.  The last 3 games against the Sixers, Leonard was 2 of 17 from 3.  Even in game 7 where he scored 41 points, it took him 39 shots. 

Leonard's ECF was far worse than James was in the ECF last year against Boston.  In fact, James was essentially better in every single playoff series he had last year (James shot pretty poorly against the Raptors), then Leonard was against the Bucks.  Because James, quite simply just does more than Leonard and always has.  When James is locked in and focused, he is still better than Leonard.

[celticsclay]

Do you realize the statistical drop off between players at 33 and 35 is a complete cliff though? I realize Lebron is a freak, so this is already giving him a huge benefit of the doubt. Look at this article:

http://wagesofwins.com/nba-players-age-like-milk/

If Lebron was the biggest super man in the world maybe he only declines 20% from 2017 playoffs to 2018 playoffs and 30% from 2018 to 2019. That would be a miracle. Suggesting he can do what Leonard is doing now at 35.5 (his birthday is december) seems really ludicrous and completely off-base from the history of the nba.

Your point about aging is well taken, but I think LeBron has already proven to be an exception to a lot of those trends.


I'm just saying that I think it's premature to declare that LeBron is "not even top 5" anymore.

He's still in the uppermost tier of players, at least when we're talking about who is capable of dominating a post-season series.


My position is that there is no clear cut "best player in the world" right now, because there are so many guys for whom you can make an argument and so much of who ends up on top depends on the context -- luck, teammates, injuries, schemes, opponent matchups.  I think that's a really good thing.

I would say he has already been an exception playing at this level at 33 and 34... I am not really ready to suspend believe any further for him not regressing significantly this year (and he did regress pretty significantly last year in my eyes). Also, while we can say we didn't get to see him get into playoff mode last year, he made a public comment about activitating playoff mode early last year

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2019/03/lakers-lebron-james-playoff-mode

and he didn't have enough left in the tank to do it as the Lakers lost to a series of terrible teams....

Thinking he can do what Leonard is doing these playoffs (one of the all time great nba playoff performances) a year down the road from now, is still in my opinion, like i said earlier absolutely crazy.

your eyes deceive you.  Basically every defensive metric said Lebron was better in LA than he was his last year in Cleveland.  And his counting stats were basically the same.  Obviously he missed a lot more games and his shooting percentages were all down, which affected his offensive efficiency, but he was still scoring, rebounding, and passing better than his career averages.  And Lebron clearly kicked it up a very large amount in the playoffs in Cleveland significantly improving upon his regular season counting stats and his advanced metrics across the board. 

And let's be clear, once Leonard was actually guarding Giannis, his efficiency suffered a lot.  In fact, his efficiency has gone down a lot since game 4 of the Philly series, when he was asked to do a lot more.  8 of the first 9 playoff games he shot over 54%, including 5 at 60% or better.  Since that time he has been above 46.2% just 1 time.  Kawhi quite simply isn't used to running an offense and he is getting tired.  It takes so much out of a player to bring the ball up the court, direct the offense, and have everything run through you.  Kawhi, quite simply, has never been that type of player and it is also why he can be locked in defensively far more frequently than many of the other great players.  It is also why I've always been less high on him than others are.  I still think he is the 5th best player in the world, but I'd absolutely have Giannis, Durant, Curry, and James ahead of him and I wouldn't give it a second thought.

You just brushed off Lebron’s diminished overall efficiency, essentially stating it wasn’t a factor in determining his greatness and then turned around and stated Leonard, when guarding one of the other top players in the league, wasn’t as great because he was inefficient.

Your logic confuses me.

No I'm saying Leonard's diminished efficiency made him much worse than James.  Leonard can't handle the load like the 4 guys I listed (yes even Giannis - put their numbers side by side, the Bucks lost because of the supporting cast).  Leonard shot 34.4% from 3 against the Bucks.  He was 44.2% from the field against the Bucks.  He was barely over 4 assists a game and he was under 30 points per game.  The last 3 games against the Sixers, Leonard was 2 of 17 from 3.  Even in game 7 where he scored 41 points, it took him 39 shots. 

Leonard's ECF was far worse than James was in the ECF last year against Boston.  In fact, James was essentially better in every single playoff series he had last year (James shot pretty poorly against the Raptors), then Leonard was against the Bucks.  Because James, quite simply just does more than Leonard and always has.  When James is locked in and focused, he is still better than Leonard.

You don’t understand aging it seems like. This is such an absurd take. Lebron was one of top 3 players of all time but he is slowing down and my eyes are not decieving me. I’ve also noticed how you use counting stats when it suits your argument and advanced stats when it suits your argument. Try to be a little more consistent man.

I used both counting and advanced stats in my argument.  Perhaps you should read the argument before commenting.  Might save some time.

I read it. Thanks though.

[Briantir]

Kawhi is the chosen one he will fulfill the prophecy and bring balance to the league.

After the Raptors go down 0-2 the Warriors will get Durant back Game 3 then the Raptors will win 4 straight just like they did with the Bucks.

Durant will leave... Balance restored.