Is Leonard the new best player of the league?

[PhoSita]

Lately the unofficial best player mantle goes to the superstar who's most dominant in the playoffs.

Doesn't this make it seem a little arbitrary?

Obviously a superstar has a lot of say in how far his team goes in the playoffs, but he's not the only factor.  A lot of it depends on his teammates as well as his opponents.

A close series can come down to one or two role players getting hot or going cold, even if the main guys on either side put up monster stats.  Just the same, a series could be decided by an untimely injury or suspension.


Look no further than LeBron, who, thanks to a mid-season injury and a weak roster around him, didn't even get a chance to defend his "best player" crown in the playoffs.


Kawhi has been awesome, but I don't think he's been so much better than anything we've seen recently from Curry, KD, LeBron, etc. that it makes sense to conclude that he's now the "best player." 


It's a good reminder, though, that you don't need to have the no-doubt "best player" in order to compete for a title.  You just need a guy who can be the best player in any given series.  Then you need the right set of teammates and the right set of circumstances for that guy to dominate for four series.

[Moranis]

I think we're at the point where any of Steph, KD, Kawhi, harden, and giannis can make the argument that they're the best and the answer depends on the circumstances each of them is in.


It's a good situation for the league.

Leonard showed that he is better than Giannis

He did.  I don't think I saw that.  I saw that Toronto was better than Milwaukee, and that Kawhi is obviously a better foul shooter than Giannis, but I certainly didn't come out of that series thinking Kawhi proved he was better than Giannis.  I mean aside from Giannis, Middleton, and Lopez, the Bucks were 4 of 23 in game 4 from 3.  Game 5 - aside from Giannis, the Bucks were 8 of 28 from 3.  Game 6 - aside from Giannis and Middleton, the Bucks were 6 of 21.  Giannis, quite simply, can't do it alone.  He had a terrible scoring game 3, but he was at least 20/10/4 in every other game in that series (and while he only scored 12 in game 3, he pulled down 23 boards and had 7 assists - so in a way he was 20/10/4 in every game in the series).  The Bucks lost because everyone else basically disappeared in the final 3 games of that series, after they had played so well in the first 3. 

[Moranis]

Lately the unofficial best player mantle goes to the superstar who's most dominant in the playoffs.

Doesn't this make it seem a little arbitrary?

Obviously a superstar has a lot of say in how far his team goes in the playoffs, but he's not the only factor.  A lot of it depends on his teammates as well as his opponents.

A close series can come down to one or two role players getting hot or going cold, even if the main guys on either side put up monster stats.  Just the same, a series could be decided by an untimely injury or suspension.


Look no further than LeBron, who, thanks to a mid-season injury and a weak roster around him, didn't even get a chance to defend his "best player" crown in the playoffs.


Kawhi has been awesome, but I don't think he's been so much better than anything we've seen recently from Curry, KD, LeBron, etc. that it makes sense to conclude that he's now the "best player." 


It's a good reminder, though, that you don't need to have the no-doubt "best player" in order to compete for a title.  You just need a guy who can be the best player in any given series.  Then you need the right set of teammates and the right set of circumstances for that guy to dominate for four series.

I don't actually think that is true anyway, as there have been more dominant players than Lebron James in the playoffs over the years, but Lebron never gave up that mantle because he was in fact the best player in the world.  I think people tend to put less stock on the regular season, especially for vets like James, because many vets rest, take plays off, etc. during the long grind of the season.  Now that Lebron is really aging and leaving his prime, there is a vacuum, where the mantle might be up grabs and the playoffs certainly will weigh in, but it isn't just a good playoff run, it is the whole thing and it might really take a season or two to sort out if it is someone other than say Durant (who has consistently been the 2nd best player in the world for quite awhile).

[fairweatherfan]

Lately the unofficial best player mantle goes to the superstar who's most dominant in the playoffs.

Doesn't this make it seem a little arbitrary?

Of course! The beauty of best player arguments is they're a mix of objective and subjective factors with lots of debate on how to weight them, and tearing it up while your team goes on a deep run is treated as one of the strongest indicators, because playoff success is the ultimate goal of every team.

It's not totally arbitrary because it is based on past reputation and performance - if say Jimmy Butler put up Kawhi-level numbers and made the finals it'd be seen as a monster playoffs but there'd be little serious argument that he was the best player in the league. But yeah, the ball bounces your way (literally for Kawhi) and you magically become a better player.

Obviously a superstar has a lot of say in how far his team goes in the playoffs, but he's not the only factor.  A lot of it depends on his teammates as well as his opponents.

A close series can come down to one or two role players getting hot or going cold, even if the main guys on either side put up monster stats.  Just the same, a series could be decided by an untimely injury or suspension.

If Kawhi misses that Game 7 shot and Philly wins in OT, we aren't having this conversation, we're probably talking about whether Giannis is now the best player or not. Meanwhile it's not Durant's fault he got hurt, but because he's out and the team's still thrived his monster playoff numbers get discounted. So it goes.

I don't actually think that is true anyway, as there have been more dominant players than Lebron James in the playoffs over the years, but Lebron never gave up that mantle because he was in fact the best player in the world.

I said "lately", but also who's the last player to be considered more dominant in a playoffs than LeBron? Dirk in 2011?

[PhoSita]

I think we're at the point where any of Steph, KD, Kawhi, harden, and giannis can make the argument that they're the best and the answer depends on the circumstances each of them is in.


It's a good situation for the league.

Leonard showed that he is better than Giannis

He did.  I don't think I saw that.  I saw that Toronto was better than Milwaukee, and that Kawhi is obviously a better foul shooter than Giannis, but I certainly didn't come out of that series thinking Kawhi proved he was better than Giannis. 

I agree.  I think the series showed quite clearly that Giannis has a harder time taking over a game when his teammates are playing poorly because he isn't a good pull-up shooter.  Whereas Kawhi can create something out of nothing when his team is struggling.

Being able to create something out of nothing is a very valuable skill to have in the playoffs.  It's pretty much the entire premise of "Kyrie Irving as superstar."

It's not the only skill that matters though.  Giannis does so many things on both ends, as you point out.




Giannis definitely needs to add more shot creation outside of 5 feet to his game.  That will help him to carry his team when guys like Bledsoe and Middleton are struggling.

[celticsclay]

yes

[Monkhouse]

Dude, are you seriously arguing that LeBron is better than Kawhi? How?

[celticsclay]

Dude, are you seriously arguing that LeBron is better than Kawhi? How?

Me? Certainly not. I don't think Lebron is a top 5 player in the league anymore, and probably not top 10. I am really baffled that people didn't seem to notice he stopped playing defense last year or acknowledge he is 34.

[PhoSita]

Dude, are you seriously arguing that LeBron is better than Kawhi? How?

Me? Certainly not. I don't think Lebron is a top 5 player in the league anymore, and probably not top 10. I am really baffled that people didn't seem to notice he stopped playing defense last year or acknowledge he is 34.

Are we talking about regular season or playoffs, though?

I think everybody understands Bron doesn't play defense in the regular season anymore.

It's fair to point out that he was awesome in the playoffs as recently as last year.


Let's not overlook the fact that Kawhi basically took a quarter of this regular season off.  So he doesn't get a ton of points for his regular season performance, either.


What Kawhi did to take the Raps to the Finals this year is super impressive, and he did his work on both ends.

That said, does anybody really think that LeBron is incapable of doing the same thing with the kind of supporting cast that Kawhi has in Toronto? 

I think LeBron probably still has it in him to do that for a single playoff run.  Especially now that he doesn't have the burden of playing in eight straight Finals weighing on him.

[RPGenerate]

Dude, are you seriously arguing that LeBron is better than Kawhi? How?

Me? Certainly not. I don't think Lebron is a top 5 player in the league anymore, and probably not top 10. I am really baffled that people didn't seem to notice he stopped playing defense last year or acknowledge he is 34.

Are we talking about regular season or playoffs, though?

I think everybody understands Bron doesn't play defense in the regular season anymore.

It's fair to point out that he was awesome in the playoffs as recently as last year.


Let's not overlook the fact that Kawhi basically took a quarter of this regular season off.  So he doesn't get a ton of points for his regular season performance, either.


What Kawhi did to take the Raps to the Finals this year is super impressive, and he did his work on both ends.

That said, does anybody really think that LeBron is incapable of doing the same thing with the kind of supporting cast that Kawhi has in Toronto? 

I think LeBron probably still has it in him to do that for a single playoff run.  Especially now that he doesn't have the burden of playing in eight straight Finals weighing on him.

Maybe we should wait until Lebron actually make the playoffs again before we talk about any hypothetical runs.

[celticsclay]

Dude, are you seriously arguing that LeBron is better than Kawhi? How?

Me? Certainly not. I don't think Lebron is a top 5 player in the league anymore, and probably not top 10. I am really baffled that people didn't seem to notice he stopped playing defense last year or acknowledge he is 34.

Are we talking about regular season or playoffs, though?

I think everybody understands Bron doesn't play defense in the regular season anymore.

It's fair to point out that he was awesome in the playoffs as recently as last year.


Let's not overlook the fact that Kawhi basically took a quarter of this regular season off.  So he doesn't get a ton of points for his regular season performance, either.


What Kawhi did to take the Raps to the Finals this year is super impressive, and he did his work on both ends.

That said, does anybody really think that LeBron is incapable of doing the same thing with the kind of supporting cast that Kawhi has in Toronto? 

I think LeBron probably still has it in him to do that for a single playoff run.  Especially now that he doesn't have the burden of playing in eight straight Finals weighing on him.

No I absolutely don't think a 35.5 year old Lebron can lock down the opposing teams best player and dominant on the offensive end like Leonard has these playoffs for 40+ minutes a night over the course of 3 full playoff rounds. Frankly I am shocked you do... there is a possibility we never even get to find out because right now the Lakers are far from a lock to even make the playoffs next year.

[ETNCeltics]

I thought he was the best player before his injury 2 years ago. Considering how good he is on both ends of the court, I think Durant and the version of Lebron that actually tries are the only arguments to the contrary.

The way he quit on SAS left a bad taste in my mouth. Not sure I'd trust the future of my organization to him. AD isn't far from the top either, IMO, but his quitting on his team devalued him in my eyes as well.

[PhoSita]

Dude, are you seriously arguing that LeBron is better than Kawhi? How?

Me? Certainly not. I don't think Lebron is a top 5 player in the league anymore, and probably not top 10. I am really baffled that people didn't seem to notice he stopped playing defense last year or acknowledge he is 34.

Are we talking about regular season or playoffs, though?

I think everybody understands Bron doesn't play defense in the regular season anymore.

It's fair to point out that he was awesome in the playoffs as recently as last year.


Let's not overlook the fact that Kawhi basically took a quarter of this regular season off.  So he doesn't get a ton of points for his regular season performance, either.


What Kawhi did to take the Raps to the Finals this year is super impressive, and he did his work on both ends.

That said, does anybody really think that LeBron is incapable of doing the same thing with the kind of supporting cast that Kawhi has in Toronto? 

I think LeBron probably still has it in him to do that for a single playoff run.  Especially now that he doesn't have the burden of playing in eight straight Finals weighing on him.

No I absolutely don't think a 35 year old Lebron can lock down the opposing teams best player and dominant on the offensive end like Leonard has these playoffs for 40+ minutes a night over the course of 3 full playoff rounds. Frankly I am shocked you do...

Last year Bron was 33 years old and had been to the Finals the seven years preceding that.

He played 42 minutes a game and put up 34 pts 9 ast 9.1 reb 1.4 stl 1.0 blocks with 9.7 free throw attempts on 61.9% True Shooting.  That's a 22 game sample.


I don't think that Bron would do it the exact same way that Kawhi is doing it in this playoffs, but I think he's absolutely still capable of being the best player in a playoff series for 3-4 series in a row.


That's not the same as saying that he's still good enough to carry a crappy team to a Finals berth, let alone a title.

[ETNCeltics]

Dude, are you seriously arguing that LeBron is better than Kawhi? How?

Me? Certainly not. I don't think Lebron is a top 5 player in the league anymore, and probably not top 10. I am really baffled that people didn't seem to notice he stopped playing defense last year or acknowledge he is 34.

Are we talking about regular season or playoffs, though?

I think everybody understands Bron doesn't play defense in the regular season anymore.

It's fair to point out that he was awesome in the playoffs as recently as last year.


Let's not overlook the fact that Kawhi basically took a quarter of this regular season off.  So he doesn't get a ton of points for his regular season performance, either.


What Kawhi did to take the Raps to the Finals this year is super impressive, and he did his work on both ends.

That said, does anybody really think that LeBron is incapable of doing the same thing with the kind of supporting cast that Kawhi has in Toronto? 

I think LeBron probably still has it in him to do that for a single playoff run.  Especially now that he doesn't have the burden of playing in eight straight Finals weighing on him.

No I absolutely don't think a 35 year old Lebron can lock down the opposing teams best player and dominant on the offensive end like Leonard has these playoffs for 40+ minutes a night over the course of 3 full playoff rounds. Frankly I am shocked you do...

It's been a long time since LBJ showed that kind of ability on the defensive end, so I don't think he has an argument.

One thing to the contrary though, this past year notwithstanding, LBJ plays almost every game. Even before his GSW playoff injury, KL almost always missed 15-20 games a year with nagging injuries. That devalues him  a bit. Same with Embiid. No way I'd invest everything in a guy who misses that many games, and needs multiple treatments on game day just to be able to play.

[celticsclay]

Dude, are you seriously arguing that LeBron is better than Kawhi? How?

Me? Certainly not. I don't think Lebron is a top 5 player in the league anymore, and probably not top 10. I am really baffled that people didn't seem to notice he stopped playing defense last year or acknowledge he is 34.

Are we talking about regular season or playoffs, though?

I think everybody understands Bron doesn't play defense in the regular season anymore.

It's fair to point out that he was awesome in the playoffs as recently as last year.


Let's not overlook the fact that Kawhi basically took a quarter of this regular season off.  So he doesn't get a ton of points for his regular season performance, either.


What Kawhi did to take the Raps to the Finals this year is super impressive, and he did his work on both ends.

That said, does anybody really think that LeBron is incapable of doing the same thing with the kind of supporting cast that Kawhi has in Toronto? 

I think LeBron probably still has it in him to do that for a single playoff run.  Especially now that he doesn't have the burden of playing in eight straight Finals weighing on him.

No I absolutely don't think a 35 year old Lebron can lock down the opposing teams best player and dominant on the offensive end like Leonard has these playoffs for 40+ minutes a night over the course of 3 full playoff rounds. Frankly I am shocked you do...

Last year Bron was 33 years old and had been to the Finals the seven years preceding that.

He played 42 minutes a game and put up 34 pts 9 ast 9.1 reb 1.4 stl 1.0 blocks with 9.7 free throw attempts on 61.9% True Shooting.  That's a 22 game sample.


I don't think that Bron would do it the exact same way that Kawhi is doing it in this playoffs, but I think he's absolutely still capable of being the best player in a playoff series for 3-4 series in a row.


That's not the same as saying that he's still good enough to carry a crappy team to a Finals berth, let alone a title.

Do you realize the statistical drop off between players at 33 and 35 is a complete cliff though? I realize Lebron is a freak, so this is already giving him a huge benefit of the doubt. Look at this article:

http://wagesofwins.com/nba-players-age-like-milk/

If Lebron was the biggest super man in the world maybe he only declines 20% from 2017 playoffs to 2018 playoffs and 30% from 2018 to 2019. That would be a miracle. Suggesting he can do what Leonard is doing now at 35.5 (his birthday is december) seems really ludicrous and completely off-base from the history of the nba.