Better fit: Noel or Drummond

[2short]

Question to question
What do we have to give up and pay to get  Noel or Drummond

There lies your answer

[greece66]

Reading the thread, I am a bit puzzled...

-Drummond is only a year older than Noel (23 vs 22)

-yes, Drummond is better only in rebounding and scoring (prolly blocking too) 

- he has already been an all-star and has played for a playoff team. Noel has played in a team notorious for its empty stats (see MCW before and after he left Philly).

-Noel is really awful with the ball- he cannot dribble, pass or even catch the ball at the level you would expect a starter/promising prospect to be able to. He might improve in that respect, but this is certainly  something to worry about.

-Yes, Drummond is bad at FTs but this will be much less of an issue with the new rule.

-Yes, SVG had built Detroit's team around Drummond (which suggests sthg about Drummond's talent). But how does it follow from that that Noel would be the better fit for the C's? (there is an ambiguity here as the title speaks of better fit but the text of better player, but there is no reason to think Noel is either)

-Drummond is stronger and more muscular (same height, 50 lbs heavier). You might want to argue that Noel has a lower body fat % (4.2 vs 7.5) but even taking this into account 50 lbs is a lot;Drummond also has the longer wingspan.

-And if you want the stats comparison, look below. Drummond has clearly the upper hand, in absolute numbers, per 36 mins or 100 possessions- and this despite the fact that Noel plays for La La Land which the last couple of years was playing most of its regular season games at SL levels of intensity. (I say despite being quite positive of 'The Philadelphia Experiment')

As for advanced metrics, there Drummond has an even clearer edge.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=drumman01&p2=noelne01&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=

In short, Drummond is prolly top-5 in his position, Noel is a good prospect that might turn into starter material for a contender one day.

Not that I would not like to have Noel if he came as cheap as ppl suggest, but this comparison is absurd.

[jpotter33]

Reading the thread, I am a bit puzzled...

-Drummond is only a year older than Noel (23 vs 22)

-yes, Drummond is better only in rebounding and scoring (prolly blocking too) 

- he has already been an all-star and has played for a playoff team. Noel has played in a team notorious for its empty stats (see MCW before and after he left Philly).

-Noel is really awful with the ball- he cannot dribble, pass or even catch the ball at the level you would expect a starter/promising prospect to be able to. He might improve in that respect, but this is certainly  something to worry about.

-Yes, Drummond is bad at FTs but this will be much less of an issue with the new rule.

-Yes, SVG had built Detroit's team around Drummond (which suggests sthg about Drummond's talent). But how does it follow from that that Noel would be the better fit for the C's? (there is an ambiguity here as the title speaks of better fit but the text of better player, but there is no reason to think Noel is either)

-Drummond is stronger and more muscular (same height, 50 lbs heavier). You might want to argue that Noel has a lower body fat % (4.2 vs 7.5) but even taking this into account 50 lbs is a lot;Drummond also has the longer wingspan.

-And if you want the stats comparison, look below. Drummond has clearly the upper hand, in absolute numbers, per 36 mins or 100 possessions- and this despite the fact that Noel plays for La La Land which the last couple of years was playing most of its regular season games at SL levels of intensity. (I say despite being quite positive of 'The Philadelphia Experiment')

As for advanced metrics, there Drummond has an even clearer edge.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=drumman01&p2=noelne01&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=

In short, Drummond is prolly top-5 in his position, Noel is a good prospect that might turn into starter material for a contender one day.

Not that I would not like to have Noel if he came as cheap as ppl suggest, but this comparison is absurd.

- The link that you provided clearly shows that Noel is a better passer and overall defender, even blocks, than Drummond, so, yes, it's clear that he's pretty much only better in scoring and rebounding. But it's not like it's primarily due to skill. Drummond gets most of his points with garbage and effort plays, not post-ups, which is maximized in Detroit's system. Though he might not average 15 rebounds a game, I think Noel would average similar numbers in that situation, something like 15, 11, 2, and 2 a game, especially with his better mobility and ability to run the floor.

- Noel is clearly not an empty stats on a bad team guy, because we're not talking about points and rebounds like Okafor here. That argument makes no sense given Noel's statistics, and if anything his team context gives him more credit than doubt, especially since he's played with D-League scrub guards or out of position almost his entire career in Philly.

- The statistics show that he's a much better passer and free throw shooter than Drummond, so I'm not sure where the passing argument is coming from, especially since Drummond is worse than useless in that regard. Also, the new "hack-a-Shaq" rule isn't going to affect the game hardly at all, because it essentially just added 6  minutes where you can't do it anymore. There's still 40 minutes a game that he can, and will, be hacked due to his historically bad free throw shooting.

- I don't understand what's so hard for people to understand about a little bit better player not being as good of a fit in a system as a little lesser player. Drummond is much heavier and less mobile than Noel, which isn't what we need in a center next to Horford, especially given that Noel ranks better with defensive stats across the board as it is. He's also much more ideal for our running philosophy (can you imagine him running the floor alongside IT?!), and his greater athleticism/bounce makes him a better option in the PnR with IT. Combine these advantages with the fact that Noel would come much cheaper and he wouldn't be constantly fouled killing our offense, which would be absolutely devastating to our offense that relies on running and pushing the ball, and there's a very solid argument that he's a much better fit on our team than Drummond, even if Drummond is a better overall player right now.

I have a feeling that a lot of people will change their tune regarding Noel when he's not on the dumpster fire that is Philly. He'd be SOOOO much better with actual competent guards around him and not playing out of position.

[greece66]

Reading the thread, I am a bit puzzled...

-Drummond is only a year older than Noel (23 vs 22)

-yes, Drummond is better only in rebounding and scoring (prolly blocking too) 

- he has already been an all-star and has played for a playoff team. Noel has played in a team notorious for its empty stats (see MCW before and after he left Philly).

-Noel is really awful with the ball- he cannot dribble, pass or even catch the ball at the level you would expect a starter/promising prospect to be able to. He might improve in that respect, but this is certainly  something to worry about.

-Yes, Drummond is bad at FTs but this will be much less of an issue with the new rule.

-Yes, SVG had built Detroit's team around Drummond (which suggests sthg about Drummond's talent). But how does it follow from that that Noel would be the better fit for the C's? (there is an ambiguity here as the title speaks of better fit but the text of better player, but there is no reason to think Noel is either)

-Drummond is stronger and more muscular (same height, 50 lbs heavier). You might want to argue that Noel has a lower body fat % (4.2 vs 7.5) but even taking this into account 50 lbs is a lot;Drummond also has the longer wingspan.

-And if you want the stats comparison, look below. Drummond has clearly the upper hand, in absolute numbers, per 36 mins or 100 possessions- and this despite the fact that Noel plays for La La Land which the last couple of years was playing most of its regular season games at SL levels of intensity. (I say despite being quite positive of 'The Philadelphia Experiment')

As for advanced metrics, there Drummond has an even clearer edge.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=drumman01&p2=noelne01&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=

In short, Drummond is prolly top-5 in his position, Noel is a good prospect that might turn into starter material for a contender one day.

Not that I would not like to have Noel if he came as cheap as ppl suggest, but this comparison is absurd.

- The link that you provided clearly shows that Noel is a better passer and overall defender, even blocks, than Drummond, so, yes, it's clear that he's pretty much only better in scoring and rebounding. But it's not like it's primarily due to skill. Drummond gets most of his points with garbage and effort plays, not post-ups, which is maximized in Detroit's system. Though he might not average 15 rebounds a game, I think Noel would average similar numbers in that situation, something like 15, 11, 2, and 2 a game, especially with his better mobility and ability to run the floor.

- Noel is clearly not an empty stats on a bad team guy, because we're not talking about points and rebounds like Okafor here. That argument makes no sense given Noel's statistics, and if anything his team context gives him more credit than doubt, especially since he's played with D-League scrub guards or out of position almost his entire career in Philly.

- The statistics show that he's a much better passer and free throw shooter than Drummond, so I'm not sure where the passing argument is coming from, especially since Drummond is worse than useless in that regard. Also, the new "hack-a-Shaq" rule isn't going to affect the game hardly at all, because it essentially just added 6  minutes where you can't do it anymore. There's still 40 minutes a game that he can, and will, be hacked due to his historically bad free throw shooting.

- I don't understand what's so hard for people to understand about a little bit better player not being as good of a fit in a system as a little lesser player. Drummond is much heavier and less mobile than Noel, which isn't what we need in a center next to Horford, especially given that Noel ranks better with defensive stats across the board as it is. He's also much more ideal for our running philosophy (can you imagine him running the floor alongside IT?!), and his greater athleticism/bounce makes him a better option in the PnR with IT. Combine these advantages with the fact that Noel would come much cheaper and he wouldn't be constantly fouled killing our offense, which would be absolutely devastating to our offense that relies on running and pushing the ball, and there's a very solid argument that he's a much better fit on our team than Drummond, even if Drummond is a better overall player right now.

I have a feeling that a lot of people will change their tune regarding Noel when he's not on the dumpster fire that is Philly. He'd be SOOOO much better with actual competent guards around him and not playing out of position.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.
We agree to disagree 

As a side note, on the passing thing, it surprised me too. It could be that Noel is a good passer. But there are three factors that diminish my enthusiasm: his high number of turnovers, that Drummond prolly does not pass once he gets the ball, he just tries to finish  (which is a good idea given his FG%; for instance, De Andre Jordan has 0.6 assists pg in his career); and I have seen Noel play a painfully high number of times (ca. 20 philly games the last two years): Philly fans call him Noel scissorhands.