flawed stats sending false message

[celticsclay]

i googled curry's injury and it was well documented that he couldn't do certain things and wasn't able to get seperation,use certain moves push off-curry had two injuries first his ankle then a mild asl sprain -the best article was Explain one playoffs:(near)unkillable warriors almost overcome curry's injury---read it and see how a mild knee sprain effected him-there are multiple articles-i am using my own experiences a a shooter as well as in print-

except statistically he was better in 16 than he was in 15 against Cleveland (both in the Finals).  In fact, in the 11 playoff series Curry has had, just one time he was better in the playoffs than he was in the regular season and his two worst performances were against the Spurs and Cavs when he was fully healthy. 

Injuries certainly can effect players, but Curry's lesser shooting against Cleveland in the Finals this last season had almost nothing to do with his injury and almost everything to do with the quality of competition and the match-up that competition posed to him. 

Smart's terrible offensive instincts have nothing to do with his injury.  He is just a moron.

I don't know, Moranis, even before this playoff run, if we go back to the first few seasons that Curry played --- the ankles were a huge question mark.  he was constantly rolling them and struggling.  he didn't really become an MVP candidate until he got healthy.  did he just get better all the sudden, or did getting healthy allow him to reach his ceiling?

Of course him being healthy allowed him to reach his potential.  Duh.  My point is, he was bringing up Curry's 40% shooting against Cleveland to show what injuries can do, without any consideration that Curry shot 38.5% the prior year against Cleveland or that his first three playoff series he was under 40% combined and in one of them a full 10% worse than his regular season average.

I mean was Klay Thompson injured.  He must have been what with him only shooting 35% this year and 30% last year against Cleveland.  I mean that is the only explanation, he had to be injured.  I mean how else could you explain the drop in shooting percentage.

Go the Cleveland shades on pretty tight if you can't acknowledge that Curry was not himself the rest of the playoffs after being injured. He said it himself, medical professionals would tell you you are not full strength as quickly as he came back from those injuries, and you could also just tell it by watching the games. Obviously Cleveland was screwed over even worse by injuries the year before, but to say Curry was only playing worse cause of game planning and better competition is foolish.

which one is Cleveland this year and which one is Cleveland last year

44.3 FG%, 38.5 3PT%, 88.5 FT%
40.3 FG%, 40.0 3PT%, 92.9 FT%

These are the playoff percentages from three for his four separate years in the postseason: 42.2, 40.4, 39.6, 38.6 (hint this past "injured" season is not one of the two in the 30's)

And you still haven't explained Klay Thompson?  Was he injured also or did the Cavs just contain him just like the year before as well?

The Cavs gameplan was simple, focus on Curry and Thompson and let everyone else beat us.  It was basically the same gameplan the year before as well.  The reason Curry and Thompson weren't that good (and let's face it, Curry wasn't that bad outside of Game 7 and he had 3 games above his season average from three shooting) is because that was the Cavs gameplan.  There is a reason Harrison Barnes and Draymond Green were left open constantly.  The Cavs wanted them to shoot the ball and focused the defense on Thompson and Curry. 

I'm not saying injuries don't affect players, they certainly can, but Curry's troubles in the Finals had virtually nothing to do with injuries and everything to do with the Cavs, which is why his stat lines are so close from the last two finals.

it is a lot more than shooting percentages, and I know you have watched enough basketball to tell he was not moving very well. I'm not going to get into debating it to find out if you are being daft, disingenuous or something else.

[Ilikesports17]

Marcus has shot the ball well for basically 2 months in a Celtics uniform.

They were the two months following his return from the ankle injury. However, he did have his lowest fta/game rates in his career that month.

The injuries he has battled add context which is always important, but the proof is in the pudding.

[rollie mass]

moranis- you agree in print that recovery time from injuries on court alters stats, you agree in print that being a two way player alters shooting stats
smart  had to guard harden,westbrook/durant ,lliard,paul,curry/thompson,,derozan--- talk about a tough days at the office and some with crowder hurt
serious injury influenced his stats and playing tough defense against a series of all stars
you call smart a moron and i claim that his poor shooting stats for the 2015-16 season were a reflection of injuries, defensive intensity and having to take shots while time is running out-

[clover]

I know this doesn't make for as much fun as taking either of the two extreme sides here, but yes, Smart's defensive intensity and some nagging injuries springing out of that probably helped to put a damper on his already mediocre shooting stats.

His poor shot selection probably contributes as well. It has been pretty clear for those watching him that he has drifted in and out of a decent shooting form through his first two years in the league. That still elusive form does give his boosters a fair basis for hope, at least.

He's probably not going to give up his defensive intensity (and possible propensity for nagging injuries coming from that), but he is still fairly young and so it is reasonable to expect that he will get locked in to his better shooting form, at least, somewhere in the next year or two. Also, there should be some hope that he'll stop taking so many questionable shots.

Put all those together and IMO it is reasonable to expect him to attain at least an average, if not above average, shooting ability. His ability to get to the hoop and score there, one of his strengths in college, may be the greater concern on his offense, however, since after two years of heavy playing time he still seems not to have, what--the handle or the speed?--to be effective there at this level. This may limit his effectiveness in playing point here too, which doubly increases the importance of his getting his shooting locked in from what well top out as his combo guard position at the 2.

So I think it is fair to grant his exceptional defensive ability and overall scrappiness and crunch-time impacts. Improvement in his shooting should be expected this year or next year at the latest--while still young and on his rookie contract. But to expect him to become an exceptional shooter or to develop an exceptional all-around offensive game at this point is more in the realm of optimist hope than balanced expectation. Still may happen, but probably not more likely than not, if you will.

[Celtics4ever]

I know some guys that still shoot well hurt, but maybe they are a dying breed in this age of not playing hurt.   I am not sure to be honest that he ever demonstrated good shooting when not injured folks.

He still is a nice player who can affect the outcome of a game in many ways.   This is a weakness that he has to over come.   He was a not a good shooter in college either, so I for one, think the injury excuse, and that is what it is folks, is unfounded.

[Moranis]

moranis- you agree in print that recovery time from injuries on court alters stats, you agree in print that being a two way player alters shooting stats
smart  had to guard harden,westbrook/durant ,lliard,paul,curry/thompson,,derozan--- talk about a tough days at the office and some with crowder hurt
serious injury influenced his stats and playing tough defense against a series of all stars
you call smart a moron and i claim that his poor shooting stats for the 2015-16 season were a reflection of injuries, defensive intensity and having to take shots while time is running out-

Smart is always going to guard good players and players always have nagging injuries.  None of that explains Smart's absolutely horrendous decision making and offensive instincts.  He takes terrible shots at the wrong time in the shot clock.  He doesn't drive or pass when he should.  No amount of injury is going to correct that.  He is just flat out dumb on the offensive side of the court.  Period.  Now sure over time he might become less dumb and he probably won't be the worst shooter ever for his entire career because players do get better, but those expecting Smart to put it all together and make a monumental leap on the offensive side of the ball are just kidding themselves because he is just dumb when it comes to offense.  Wrong decision, at wrong time, and with terrible shooting form.  He will never be a consistent shooter to even be average at that end of the floor.  That doesn't mean he won't be a supremely valuable defender, because he absolutely should be that, which means he should have a very long career in this league, but he isn't going to even turn into an Avery Bradley type player.

[rollie mass]

I know this doesn't make for as much fun as taking either of the two extreme sides here, but yes, Smart's defensive intensity and some nagging injuries springing out of that probably helped to put a damper on his already mediocre shooting stats.

His poor shot selection probably contributes as well. It has been pretty clear for those watching him that he has drifted in and out of a decent shooting form through his first two years in the league. That still elusive form does give his boosters a fair basis for hope, at least.

He's probably not going to give up his defensive intensity (and possible propensity for nagging injuries coming from that), but he is still fairly young and so it is reasonable to expect that he will get locked in to his better shooting form, at least, somewhere in the next year or two. Also, there should be some hope that he'll stop taking so many questionable shots.

Put all those together and IMO it is reasonable to expect him to attain at least an average, if not above average, shooting ability. His ability to get to the hoop and score there, one of his strengths in college, may be the greater concern on his offense, however, since after two years of heavy playing time he still seems not to have, what--the handle or the speed?--to be effective there at this level. This may limit his effectiveness in playing point here too, which doubly increases the importance of his getting his shooting locked in from what well top out as his combo guard position at the 2.

So I think it is fair to grant his exceptional defensive ability and overall scrappiness and crunch-time impacts. Improvement in his shooting should be expected this year or next year at the latest--while still young and on his rookie contract. But to expect him to become an exceptional shooter or to develop an exceptional all-around offensive game at this point is more in the realm of optimist hope than balanced expectation. Still may happen, but probably not more likely than not, if you will.
[/quo

thank you celts fan for putting that post together TP TP TP -i never meant in my posts for marcus to be any knockdown shooter  but maybe a little bit better than his rookie season of.334--i was just trying to put the stats in context to amount of getting back in game shape and recovering while playing  and how they effect long range shooting-- and i think young rookies tend to get injured more when pushing their bodies to grown men levels and it takes time to know what you can or can't do-aron gordon,exum,parker,smart,randle,vonleh their rookie year-

[Moranis]

i googled curry's injury and it was well documented that he couldn't do certain things and wasn't able to get seperation,use certain moves push off-curry had two injuries first his ankle then a mild asl sprain -the best article was Explain one playoffs:(near)unkillable warriors almost overcome curry's injury---read it and see how a mild knee sprain effected him-there are multiple articles-i am using my own experiences a a shooter as well as in print-

except statistically he was better in 16 than he was in 15 against Cleveland (both in the Finals).  In fact, in the 11 playoff series Curry has had, just one time he was better in the playoffs than he was in the regular season and his two worst performances were against the Spurs and Cavs when he was fully healthy. 

Injuries certainly can effect players, but Curry's lesser shooting against Cleveland in the Finals this last season had almost nothing to do with his injury and almost everything to do with the quality of competition and the match-up that competition posed to him. 

Smart's terrible offensive instincts have nothing to do with his injury.  He is just a moron.

I don't know, Moranis, even before this playoff run, if we go back to the first few seasons that Curry played --- the ankles were a huge question mark.  he was constantly rolling them and struggling.  he didn't really become an MVP candidate until he got healthy.  did he just get better all the sudden, or did getting healthy allow him to reach his ceiling?

Of course him being healthy allowed him to reach his potential.  Duh.  My point is, he was bringing up Curry's 40% shooting against Cleveland to show what injuries can do, without any consideration that Curry shot 38.5% the prior year against Cleveland or that his first three playoff series he was under 40% combined and in one of them a full 10% worse than his regular season average.

I mean was Klay Thompson injured.  He must have been what with him only shooting 35% this year and 30% last year against Cleveland.  I mean that is the only explanation, he had to be injured.  I mean how else could you explain the drop in shooting percentage.

Go the Cleveland shades on pretty tight if you can't acknowledge that Curry was not himself the rest of the playoffs after being injured. He said it himself, medical professionals would tell you you are not full strength as quickly as he came back from those injuries, and you could also just tell it by watching the games. Obviously Cleveland was screwed over even worse by injuries the year before, but to say Curry was only playing worse cause of game planning and better competition is foolish.

which one is Cleveland this year and which one is Cleveland last year

44.3 FG%, 38.5 3PT%, 88.5 FT%
40.3 FG%, 40.0 3PT%, 92.9 FT%

These are the playoff percentages from three for his four separate years in the postseason: 42.2, 40.4, 39.6, 38.6 (hint this past "injured" season is not one of the two in the 30's)

And you still haven't explained Klay Thompson?  Was he injured also or did the Cavs just contain him just like the year before as well?

The Cavs gameplan was simple, focus on Curry and Thompson and let everyone else beat us.  It was basically the same gameplan the year before as well.  The reason Curry and Thompson weren't that good (and let's face it, Curry wasn't that bad outside of Game 7 and he had 3 games above his season average from three shooting) is because that was the Cavs gameplan.  There is a reason Harrison Barnes and Draymond Green were left open constantly.  The Cavs wanted them to shoot the ball and focused the defense on Thompson and Curry. 

I'm not saying injuries don't affect players, they certainly can, but Curry's troubles in the Finals had virtually nothing to do with injuries and everything to do with the Cavs, which is why his stat lines are so close from the last two finals.

it is a lot more than shooting percentages, and I know you have watched enough basketball to tell he was not moving very well. I'm not going to get into debating it to find out if you are being daft, disingenuous or something else.

I watched every game in both of the Finals and Curry wasn't moving differently.  The Cavs just played him super aggressively and beat him up and wore him down.  It is disingenuous to take the Cavs defense away from them.  They played the Warriors the exact way you need to play the Warriors to beat them (at least the version of the Warriors the last two years, with Durant that changes since you can't leave Durant unguarded like you could Barnes). 

[chilidawg]

moranis- you agree in print that recovery time from injuries on court alters stats, you agree in print that being a two way player alters shooting stats
smart  had to guard harden,westbrook/durant ,lliard,paul,curry/thompson,,derozan--- talk about a tough days at the office and some with crowder hurt
serious injury influenced his stats and playing tough defense against a series of all stars
you call smart a moron and i claim that his poor shooting stats for the 2015-16 season were a reflection of injuries, defensive intensity and having to take shots while time is running out-

Bradley guarded those guys too, perhaps even moreso, and his shooting numbers were pretty good.

I'm in the camp that thinks his shooting and offense in general will still improve, but then again I'm an optimist in general.