flawed stats sending false message

[Moranis]

Smart has terrible decision making.  He has shot more 3's than 2's in his career and just doesn't hit them.  No amount of injury makes you take a stupid shot, that is all in the head.  He is a terrible offensive player, because he has no offensive instincts at all.  I mean, you know you are shooting 25% from three, but yet you think it is a good idea to shoot over 4 shots a game from there.  Take it to the hole Marcus or pass the [dang] ball. 

[dannyboy35]

your premise would argue that smart is the only player in the league that has played banged up?...

give me a break...

you are what you do. smart can now be called an (injury prone) defensive/energy combo guard - off the bench

Fair assessment in my opinion. It is what it is.

[dannyboy35]

Smart has terrible decision making.  He has shot more 3's than 2's in his career and just doesn't hit them.  No amount of injury makes you take a stupid shot, that is all in the head.  He is a terrible offensive player, because he has no offensive instincts at all.  I mean, you know you are shooting 25% from three, but yet you think it is a good idea to shoot over 4 shots a game from there.  Take it to the hole Marcus or pass the [dang] ball.

I agree with this. He doesn't hVe the instincts to take advantage of a 3 on 2 break. So many times he pulls the ball back out and they set up. That's better than throwing the ball away but he has Ron Artest instincts and he does take a lot of bad guarded 3 point shots that the media does not criticise him more for. He still is playing under unfair expectations. He was never the heir to rondo and future leader of the team. I LOVE having him off the bench but as for now he IS just a good role player that can make great plays.

[guava_wrench]

To be fair, the guys with amazing stats also play through injury. Also, there are guys who due to the way they play get injured a lot. Look at Delonte West. It is unrealistic to just talk about his stats when healthy when his aggressiveness caused him to often be injured.

If you are giving guys a pass because of "nagging injuries", you have to give everyone a pass since most players have those. Kobe would still perform with torn ligaments in his hand.

[rollie mass]

jaylen brown said his welcome to the NBA was a hyper extended knee and two wrist sprains-
there are nagging injuries but two fingers torn out of socket pre season easy to see that bothering ones stats shooting threes when coming back
and a knee dislocated would cause some re adjustment coming back after 18 games out and already missing a chunk of training camp and early season
smart doesn't need a pass
shot 333 the season before  and it was not a small sample-stats can give a false read when just viewed as numbers
curry looked mortal during playoffs-he is a fine tuned instrument and his early playoff injury effected his sho--curry doesn't choke he was just off- a fraction

[Moranis]

I'm not sure I'd use Curry as an example of a guy playing worse because he was injured.  Afterall, Curry shot better against the Cavs this year then he did last year.  In fact in the 8 playoff series over the last two years, only the WCF against Houston last year was Curry above his regular season average from outside shooting (this is also true from his first two playoff appearances as well).  You see, in the playoffs when you face the same team multiple times in a row and that team is one of the better teams in the league, your percentages go down.  That is just what happens.

[rollie mass]

i googled curry's injury and it was well documented that he couldn't do certain things and wasn't able to get seperation,use certain moves push off-curry had two injuries first his ankle then a mild asl sprain -the best article was Explain one playoffs:(near)unkillable warriors almost overcome curry's injury---read it and see how a mild knee sprain effected him-there are multiple articles-i am using my own experiences a a shooter as well as whats in print-then there is  the mental aspect of fear of re injuring-look it up-
curry went 1-6 in last few minutes of game 7-the article mentioned majority of scoring off catch and shoot and his range suffered--this was from a warrior site-

[Moranis]

i googled curry's injury and it was well documented that he couldn't do certain things and wasn't able to get seperation,use certain moves push off-curry had two injuries first his ankle then a mild asl sprain -the best article was Explain one playoffs:(near)unkillable warriors almost overcome curry's injury---read it and see how a mild knee sprain effected him-there are multiple articles-i am using my own experiences a a shooter as well as in print-

except statistically he was better in 16 than he was in 15 against Cleveland (both in the Finals).  In fact, in the 11 playoff series Curry has had, just one time he was better in the playoffs than he was in the regular season and his two worst performances were against the Spurs and Cavs when he was fully healthy. 

Injuries certainly can effect players, but Curry's lesser shooting against Cleveland in the Finals this last season had almost nothing to do with his injury and almost everything to do with the quality of competition and the match-up that competition posed to him. 

Smart's terrible offensive instincts have nothing to do with his injury.  He is just a moron.

[D Dub]

i googled curry's injury and it was well documented that he couldn't do certain things and wasn't able to get seperation,use certain moves push off-curry had two injuries first his ankle then a mild asl sprain -the best article was Explain one playoffs:(near)unkillable warriors almost overcome curry's injury---read it and see how a mild knee sprain effected him-there are multiple articles-i am using my own experiences a a shooter as well as in print-

except statistically he was better in 16 than he was in 15 against Cleveland (both in the Finals).  In fact, in the 11 playoff series Curry has had, just one time he was better in the playoffs than he was in the regular season and his two worst performances were against the Spurs and Cavs when he was fully healthy. 

Injuries certainly can effect players, but Curry's lesser shooting against Cleveland in the Finals this last season had almost nothing to do with his injury and almost everything to do with the quality of competition and the match-up that competition posed to him. 

Smart's terrible offensive instincts have nothing to do with his injury.  He is just a moron.

I don't know, Moranis, even before this playoff run, if we go back to the first few seasons that Curry played --- the ankles were a huge question mark.  he was constantly rolling them and struggling.  he didn't really become an MVP candidate until he got healthy.  did he just get better all the sudden, or did getting healthy allow him to reach his ceiling? 

[Moranis]

i googled curry's injury and it was well documented that he couldn't do certain things and wasn't able to get seperation,use certain moves push off-curry had two injuries first his ankle then a mild asl sprain -the best article was Explain one playoffs:(near)unkillable warriors almost overcome curry's injury---read it and see how a mild knee sprain effected him-there are multiple articles-i am using my own experiences a a shooter as well as in print-

except statistically he was better in 16 than he was in 15 against Cleveland (both in the Finals).  In fact, in the 11 playoff series Curry has had, just one time he was better in the playoffs than he was in the regular season and his two worst performances were against the Spurs and Cavs when he was fully healthy. 

Injuries certainly can effect players, but Curry's lesser shooting against Cleveland in the Finals this last season had almost nothing to do with his injury and almost everything to do with the quality of competition and the match-up that competition posed to him. 

Smart's terrible offensive instincts have nothing to do with his injury.  He is just a moron.

I don't know, Moranis, even before this playoff run, if we go back to the first few seasons that Curry played --- the ankles were a huge question mark.  he was constantly rolling them and struggling.  he didn't really become an MVP candidate until he got healthy.  did he just get better all the sudden, or did getting healthy allow him to reach his ceiling?

Of course him being healthy allowed him to reach his potential.  Duh.  My point is, he was bringing up Curry's 40% shooting against Cleveland to show what injuries can do, without any consideration that Curry shot 38.5% the prior year against Cleveland or that his first three playoff series he was under 40% combined and in one of them a full 10% worse than his regular season average.

I mean was Klay Thompson injured.  He must have been what with him only shooting 35% this year and 30% last year against Cleveland.  I mean that is the only explanation, he had to be injured.  I mean how else could you explain the drop in shooting percentage.

[rollie mass]

now from the articles i read he suffered with his long range shot and his scoring was shorter range 3's and alot of catch and shoot
i watched curry and i used the phrase mortal-he pressed had stupid turnovers and just didn't seem right
-lets use crowder then he had a slight ankle sprain look what it did to his game
marcus shot .344 in playoffs more like his previous season average
it took two weeks for isaiah to shake the fear of falling after his bruised back
i guess you get off calling smart a moron but he looked real good taking down milsap and then hit two threes one on a sidestep-didn't look like a broken shot to me-

[celticsclay]

i googled curry's injury and it was well documented that he couldn't do certain things and wasn't able to get seperation,use certain moves push off-curry had two injuries first his ankle then a mild asl sprain -the best article was Explain one playoffs:(near)unkillable warriors almost overcome curry's injury---read it and see how a mild knee sprain effected him-there are multiple articles-i am using my own experiences a a shooter as well as in print-

except statistically he was better in 16 than he was in 15 against Cleveland (both in the Finals).  In fact, in the 11 playoff series Curry has had, just one time he was better in the playoffs than he was in the regular season and his two worst performances were against the Spurs and Cavs when he was fully healthy. 

Injuries certainly can effect players, but Curry's lesser shooting against Cleveland in the Finals this last season had almost nothing to do with his injury and almost everything to do with the quality of competition and the match-up that competition posed to him. 

Smart's terrible offensive instincts have nothing to do with his injury.  He is just a moron.

I don't know, Moranis, even before this playoff run, if we go back to the first few seasons that Curry played --- the ankles were a huge question mark.  he was constantly rolling them and struggling.  he didn't really become an MVP candidate until he got healthy.  did he just get better all the sudden, or did getting healthy allow him to reach his ceiling?

Of course him being healthy allowed him to reach his potential.  Duh.  My point is, he was bringing up Curry's 40% shooting against Cleveland to show what injuries can do, without any consideration that Curry shot 38.5% the prior year against Cleveland or that his first three playoff series he was under 40% combined and in one of them a full 10% worse than his regular season average.

I mean was Klay Thompson injured.  He must have been what with him only shooting 35% this year and 30% last year against Cleveland.  I mean that is the only explanation, he had to be injured.  I mean how else could you explain the drop in shooting percentage.

Go the Cleveland shades on pretty tight if you can't acknowledge that Curry was not himself the rest of the playoffs after being injured. He said it himself, medical professionals would tell you you are not full strength as quickly as he came back from those injuries, and you could also just tell it by watching the games. Obviously Cleveland was screwed over even worse by injuries the year before, but to say Curry was only playing worse cause of game planning and better competition is foolish.

[Beat LA]

-recovery time on court from injuries alters stats

Obviously.

-sometimes violently in case of marcus but guys like you just bludgeon away using stats and blanket statements

I don't see how anyone has 'bludgeoned away' by using stats, although bludgeoning is quite the apt term to describe how Smart got to the basket in college, lol.  Furthermore, none of these stats have been altered, period, nor in a way to attempt to make Smart look turrible - they're statistical facts.

-rj hunter has slightly sprained wrist and did not play because it would effect his shot and % but smart would have played

That's the first I've heard of this.  Do you have a link or is that just a personal view, because I have a feeling that it's the latter.

-do you know how may times and ways these announcers,critics and talk show guys bring up those bad shooting stats without looking any deeper-curry wasn't limping but his shot was off and announcers immediately came up with his injury to ankle-

Rightly or wrongly, one of the reasons why that was addressed was because 1). you could tell that he just wasn't moving the same way, and 2). Curry has already established himself as one of the best shooters in NBA history, so when he struggles, people notice.  The principle difference that's relevant to this discussion between Smart and Curry, lol, is that Smart has always been a poor shooter with at least equally bad shot selection, imo, injuries or not, so idk how anyone can say that Smart's atrocious shooting percentages are the result of having to deal with various physical ailments.

avery shoots better at beginning of games i also believe playing all star defense takes away from 3pt shooting -the physical nature of defense and focus takes its toll

Well, yeah, but that comes with the territory of being a two way player, doesn't it?  At least Bradley shoots well in ANY part of a game, lol . Ugh.

shooter to coach-- like defense that somebody elses role i'm a shooter,you want me to bang away,bust threw screens and and shoot for high percentage -no way leave it to marcus- 
shooter to coach-i need the ball at my spots to maximize % and not with time running down and having to heave it up,leave it to marcus

I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, here.  Are you implying that the superior shooters on our team (read - everyone ) communicate to Stevens via walkie talkies and refuse to take certain shots just because it would potentially be a detriment to their stats?  Really ?  I'd like to think that if that was the case that none of those 'shooters' would ever see court time, as they sound like the reincarnation of Bob McAdoo, lol . Besides, where's your proof of this?

announcers-that marcus just keeps jackin up threes,

He does.

announcers that marcus has worst % of all players

I'm not sure if you're talking about overall fg% or just from 3, but I believe people have referenced the latter before on here, and in terms of the former, well, I wouldn't be shocked, let's put it that way .

announcers that marcus has poor shot selection

He does.

announcers-kelly should shoot more

He should, but can he fix his hair first, lol ?

announcers -jerebko hitting at 40%

Okay.

fans -marcus can't shoot

He can't.

fans marcus a bust

To this point, from a former 6th overall pick, yes, I'd say that Smart has been incredibly underwhelming, to say the least, and is looking like a bust, imo .

stats guys-marcus the worst

Conventional or advanced?  Isn't he an analytics darling ?

brad-keep shooting marcus it will come around,play your game

He's entering his third year.  It's not like he's gone through a 4-5 game slump or whatever, and, again, to this point, there is little to no evidence that would seem to indicate that his shooting will ever 'come around', which is a huge problem on the whole, but also in terms of 'playing his game', because as of right now, Smart doesn't have an offensive game, imo, which is another reason why he's been so horrible on offense - dude doesn't have the skills, imo, or at least has yet to show them, although that seems highly unlikely at the moment.

celtics-marcus shot 33% his rookie year
,wouldn't you expect around that area or better his 2nd year-what happened to make him the worst
how bad was 33% for a rookie with a nagging ankle injury-

Perhaps he simply 'regressed to the mean'? Just have a look at his splits from both seasons of his career to date, and you'll see why Smart's shooting 'slump', or whatever you want to call it, is hardly a statistical anomaly.  For example, his best MONTH from last year in terms of fg% was over 17 games in January, where he shot .374 , and his best month from 3, excluding the first two games of the year in October, was .333 over 8 games in April.  Yeah...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/smartma01/splits/2015/

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/smartma01/splits/2016/

There's no statistical manipulation going on here, man.  In this case, the numbers don't lie, unfortunately . Maybe this thread should be entitled 'Smart fans attempt to polish a turd', instead, lol ?  Look, I get that you like Smart a lot, and that's fine, but facts are facts, and the reality is that even when he isn't hurt, Smart has just never been a good offensive player . Don't get me wrong, I'd like to think that he'll have a much better season, this year, but there is little to no evidence to this point that would indicate that he is capable of putting together even an average shooting MONTH, let alone an entire campaign.  Ugh.

[Moranis]

i googled curry's injury and it was well documented that he couldn't do certain things and wasn't able to get seperation,use certain moves push off-curry had two injuries first his ankle then a mild asl sprain -the best article was Explain one playoffs:(near)unkillable warriors almost overcome curry's injury---read it and see how a mild knee sprain effected him-there are multiple articles-i am using my own experiences a a shooter as well as in print-

except statistically he was better in 16 than he was in 15 against Cleveland (both in the Finals).  In fact, in the 11 playoff series Curry has had, just one time he was better in the playoffs than he was in the regular season and his two worst performances were against the Spurs and Cavs when he was fully healthy. 

Injuries certainly can effect players, but Curry's lesser shooting against Cleveland in the Finals this last season had almost nothing to do with his injury and almost everything to do with the quality of competition and the match-up that competition posed to him. 

Smart's terrible offensive instincts have nothing to do with his injury.  He is just a moron.

I don't know, Moranis, even before this playoff run, if we go back to the first few seasons that Curry played --- the ankles were a huge question mark.  he was constantly rolling them and struggling.  he didn't really become an MVP candidate until he got healthy.  did he just get better all the sudden, or did getting healthy allow him to reach his ceiling?

Of course him being healthy allowed him to reach his potential.  Duh.  My point is, he was bringing up Curry's 40% shooting against Cleveland to show what injuries can do, without any consideration that Curry shot 38.5% the prior year against Cleveland or that his first three playoff series he was under 40% combined and in one of them a full 10% worse than his regular season average.

I mean was Klay Thompson injured.  He must have been what with him only shooting 35% this year and 30% last year against Cleveland.  I mean that is the only explanation, he had to be injured.  I mean how else could you explain the drop in shooting percentage.

Go the Cleveland shades on pretty tight if you can't acknowledge that Curry was not himself the rest of the playoffs after being injured. He said it himself, medical professionals would tell you you are not full strength as quickly as he came back from those injuries, and you could also just tell it by watching the games. Obviously Cleveland was screwed over even worse by injuries the year before, but to say Curry was only playing worse cause of game planning and better competition is foolish.

which one is Cleveland this year and which one is Cleveland last year

44.3 FG%, 38.5 3PT%, 88.5 FT%
40.3 FG%, 40.0 3PT%, 92.9 FT%

These are the playoff percentages from three for his four separate years in the postseason: 42.2, 40.4, 39.6, 38.6 (hint this past "injured" season is not one of the two in the 30's)

And you still haven't explained Klay Thompson?  Was he injured also or did the Cavs just contain him just like the year before as well?

The Cavs gameplan was simple, focus on Curry and Thompson and let everyone else beat us.  It was basically the same gameplan the year before as well.  The reason Curry and Thompson weren't that good (and let's face it, Curry wasn't that bad outside of Game 7 and he had 3 games above his season average from three shooting) is because that was the Cavs gameplan.  There is a reason Harrison Barnes and Draymond Green were left open constantly.  The Cavs wanted them to shoot the ball and focused the defense on Thompson and Curry. 

I'm not saying injuries don't affect players, they certainly can, but Curry's troubles in the Finals had virtually nothing to do with injuries and everything to do with the Cavs, which is why his stat lines are so close from the last two finals. 

[lefty12]

jaylen brown said his welcome to the NBA was a hyper extended knee and two wrist sprains-
there are nagging injuries but two fingers torn out of socket pre season easy to see that bothering ones stats shooting threes when coming back
and a knee dislocated would cause some re adjustment coming back after 18 games out and already missing a chunk of training camp and early season
smart doesn't need a pass
shot 333 the season before  and it was not a small sample-stats can give a false read when just viewed as numbers
curry looked mortal during playoffs-he is a fine tuned instrument and his early playoff injury effected his sho--curry doesn't choke he was just off- a fraction

going hard to the rim - mostly off balance to avoid contact - too many times ultimately leads to a few nasty spills.  thus nicked up injuries

its amazing IT has been able to stay relatively injury free

after a few years - the slashers don't go as hard/as often