Things I liked from the C's win at Nets

[danglertx]

I don't start a lot of threads but I didn't see anywhere all of these thoughts would fit and spreading them out over several posts still wouldn't fit all of them.

First was KO starting.  He didn't have a great game shooting or defensively, but yet we still scored 37points in the first quarter with him starting.  And that was without Mr. First Quarter Avery Bradley.  He creates space.  That truly showed in his pairing with Zeller but I'll get to that in a minute.  I like him playing with Amir because Amir capitalizes on KO's great passing by FINISHING at the rim.  Johnson is really our only guy who finishes at the rim strong.  In my opinion a 4 or 5 who is an elite finisher inside but doesn't necessarily have a good post or outside game would be the second best pairing with KO.  I know people will hate this, but a guy like Dwight Howard could really thrive next to KO.

Secondly, I loved KO paired with Zeller and Smart.  The best use of KO is stretching the floor for a high pick and roll.  Zeller and Smart were running the high PnR to perfection and Smart was dropping some dimes.  Zeller being so mobile really put the Net's 4 (Young) in a bind because the pick and roll were coming on the same side as KO in the corner.  If Young helped too early in the lane he was giving up a wide open corner three to Kelly.  If he played it half way like I was taught, Zeller was beating his rotation with his quickness.  I think Zeller missed a pretty easy look and we quit running that but I'm not sure they ever really figured out a way to stop it.

Thirdly, I was immensely impressed with Smart's defense.  He does so many little things if you just watch him on defense.  Several times he'd quickly leave his guy to stop a Nets player coming off a pick up top when his guy was off in the corner and he had no business being up there.  He read the play though, mucked it up and got back to his man.  He didn't get a steal but it is those things that make offense hard.   RJ does those things. 

One negative thing, don't let Joe Johnson get to his right hand. 

Finally, the lineup I'd love to see is Smart, RJ, Crowder, KO, and Zeller.  Let Smart run high PnR with Zeller, put KO and RJ in the corners and Crowder opposite side at the break, preferably on the right side of the floor with RJ because Crowder seems to like driving from that side better and if a 4 is guarding KO he will have a harder time coming all the way across the lane to contest.  Meanwhile the extra defender on RJ's side won't matter as much because of his really fast release. 

On defense Zeller will probably take the 5 and he did a great job on Lopez (another thing I loved but didn't mention) and KO the 4.  Smart, Crowder and believe it or not RJ are really good defenders for their positions who also rebound very well.  Smart is strong, great instincts, hands, tough, and just tenacious.  Crowder is quick and strong.  RJ at the 2 is incredibly long, has a quick jump, and is always looking to help which occasionally gets him beat on back door plays.  Even Young and Turner rebound well for their positions and can help out the KO and Zeller frontcourt on the boards.

[BudweiserCeltic]

Worth pointing out that we scored 40 points to open the game against Washington.

Our defense and rebounding last night was abysmal from KO. The Nets are a tough match-up for him so I was surprised that this was the game Stevens picked to make the change... a change that could've meant the game for us. To say nothing of playing him 38 undeserved minutes. Which is one of my biggest worries with him. He's always been Stevens' binky, and I never trust that Stevens will use him correctly.

Worth mentioning I'm not opposed to KO starting, I've pointed out multiple times that Amir and KO are a good pair and it's worth exploring.  I'm a Sullinger guy, but it is what it is. His offense has faltered overall, and he has some injuries he seems to be working through and what not. But whatever.

Crowder's and Turner's defense were quite bad on the perimeter particularly on Johnson, that could've cost us the game.

Sullinger had a good game, offense stalled in the second half, but overall a strong defensive and rebounding game. Made his free-throws at least also. Good passing, no turnovers (had 5 last game).

Zeller overall sucked, but he did serve his purpose of guarding Lopez. But otherwise was a negative for us throughout the game. Stevens overplayed him.

Once again Stevens penchant for going small in the most inopportune times slowed us down. When the team kept to a strict short rotation everything was running quite smoothly. Then he decided to give Jerebko minutes, instead of keeping us big, and we started to struggle.

Worth pointing out as well that I was supporting going small in this game with Crowder at the 4. I think he's one of our better options to throw at Young who had a field-day with Olynyk.

Turner's penetration and distribution game was very positive for us. It stalled a bit later on though, but having him and Thomas being aggressive to the basket was very important.

Amir had a strong game.

Loved everything from Smart last night.

Curious about Lee and what will happen from now on. But he really won't be missed, though I haven't been as critical on him as most.

James Young sucked and again going small with him and Jerebko in there with little playmaking on the floor as it was, was one of the biggest mistakes from Stevens last night.

Forgot to mention, Crowder was awesome otherwise. He's playing very well.

[danglertx]

I think we watched a different game.  Thad Young was 9-18 with 23 points and a -7.  KO was a +11.  I guess you can say Young had his way with KO, maybe he went 9-9 on KO and missed the rest of his shots and got all his rebounds on Kelly but how do you explain KO's +11 even when he didn't shoot well at all if he was horrible at defense, horrible at rebounding, and didn't shoot particularly well? 

It isn't like this is KO's only game like that either.  People used to say KO's +/- was due to him playing against backups.  Then he starts, is still second in +/- to Amir's +12 and he still sucks.

[BudweiserCeltic]

I think we watched a different game.  Thad Young was 9-18 with 23 points and a -7.  KO was a +11.  I guess you can say Young had his way with KO, maybe he went 9-9 on KO and missed the rest of his shots and got all his rebounds on Kelly but how do you explain KO's +11 even when he didn't shoot well at all if he was horrible at defense, horrible at rebounding, and didn't shoot particularly well? 

It isn't like this is KO's only game like that either. 

Just because a player doesn't have a good game doesn't mean the unit he's participating in can't produce well. Crowder had a great game, Johnson had a very good game, Thomas had a productive game. Turner started the game very very well. All of this contributed to Olynyk having a postive on-the-floor game.

But sorry, overall he had a poor game and it begins with his defense and rebounding. As mentioned the Nets are a poor match-up for him. In the previous game he could barely get off the bench due to it as it was. So Stevens decision to not only start him, but overplay him throughout the game even when it was evident he was sucking it up, was quite surprising for me.

I mean, James Young was +1 or are you going to start arguing that he had a good game?

But sure, I guess we were watching a different game... me and pretty much everyone in the game thread.

[Csfan1984]

One great quarter of play can win you the game.

[Ilikesports17]

I think we watched a different game.  Thad Young was 9-18 with 23 points and a -7.  KO was a +11.  I guess you can say Young had his way with KO, maybe he went 9-9 on KO and missed the rest of his shots and got all his rebounds on Kelly but how do you explain KO's +11 even when he didn't shoot well at all if he was horrible at defense, horrible at rebounding, and didn't shoot particularly well? 

It isn't like this is KO's only game like that either. 

Just because a player doesn't have a good game doesn't mean the unit he's participating in can't produce well. Crowder had a great game, Johnson had a very good game, Thomas had a productive game. Turner started the game very very well. All of this contributed to Olynyk having a postive on-the-floor game.

But sorry, overall he had a poor game and it begins with his defense and rebounding. As mentioned the Nets are a poor match-up for him. In the previous game he could barely get off the bench due to it as it was. So Stevens decision to not only start him, but overplay him throughout the game even when it was evident he was sucking it up, was quite surprising for me.

I mean, James Young was +1 or are you going to start arguing that he had a good game?

But sure, I guess we were watching a different game... me and pretty much everyone in the game thread.

After the Lakers game I came on this website planning to post that this game was terribly disappointing from Kelly Olynyk as I felt he got bullied inside and overall played a horrible game and took a big step back.

Now, before I posted I checked the box score and Olynyk was our best player in terms of +/-.

Usually Id dismiss this as a product of being on the court with certain players and luck, but last year he led our team in +/- and RPM where he was rated the 7th best center in the league. This year the stats arent as kind as he is ranked third on the team in RPM but still hes ranked 3rd on the team.

I think the stat is a bit misleading still because he has been tied largely to Isaiah but still there is enough evidence now that Kelly can look bad and help the team that I dont think we can dismiss it when he turns in a good +/-

[loco_91]

I think we watched a different game.  Thad Young was 9-18 with 23 points and a -7.  KO was a +11.  I guess you can say Young had his way with KO, maybe he went 9-9 on KO and missed the rest of his shots and got all his rebounds on Kelly but how do you explain KO's +11 even when he didn't shoot well at all if he was horrible at defense, horrible at rebounding, and didn't shoot particularly well? 

It isn't like this is KO's only game like that either. 

Just because a player doesn't have a good game doesn't mean the unit he's participating in can't produce well. Crowder had a great game, Johnson had a very good game, Thomas had a productive game. Turner started the game very very well. All of this contributed to Olynyk having a postive on-the-floor game.

But sorry, overall he had a poor game and it begins with his defense and rebounding. As mentioned the Nets are a poor match-up for him. In the previous game he could barely get off the bench due to it as it was. So Stevens decision to not only start him, but overplay him throughout the game even when it was evident he was sucking it up, was quite surprising for me.

I mean, James Young was +1 or are you going to start arguing that he had a good game?

But sure, I guess we were watching a different game... me and pretty much everyone in the game thread.

After the Lakers game I came on this website planning to post that this game was terribly disappointing from Kelly Olynyk as I felt he got bullied inside and overall played a horrible game and took a big step back.

Now, before I posted I checked the box score and Olynyk was our best player in terms of +/-.

Usually Id dismiss this as a product of being on the court with certain players and luck, but last year he led our team in +/- and RPM where he was rated the 7th best center in the league. This year the stats arent as kind as he is ranked third on the team in RPM but still hes ranked 3rd on the team.

I think the stat is a bit misleading still because he has been tied largely to Isaiah but still there is enough evidence now that Kelly can look bad and help the team that I dont think we can dismiss it when he turns in a good +/-

+- is super noisy, and it isn't a measure of an individual's contribution for a single game. Means more over the course of a season, but it can still be confounded by pairings.

KO has had plenty of good games this year and this wasn't one of them. But I don't see any reason to worry about him based on this one game.

[BudweiserCeltic]

I think we watched a different game.  Thad Young was 9-18 with 23 points and a -7.  KO was a +11.  I guess you can say Young had his way with KO, maybe he went 9-9 on KO and missed the rest of his shots and got all his rebounds on Kelly but how do you explain KO's +11 even when he didn't shoot well at all if he was horrible at defense, horrible at rebounding, and didn't shoot particularly well? 

It isn't like this is KO's only game like that either. 

Just because a player doesn't have a good game doesn't mean the unit he's participating in can't produce well. Crowder had a great game, Johnson had a very good game, Thomas had a productive game. Turner started the game very very well. All of this contributed to Olynyk having a postive on-the-floor game.

But sorry, overall he had a poor game and it begins with his defense and rebounding. As mentioned the Nets are a poor match-up for him. In the previous game he could barely get off the bench due to it as it was. So Stevens decision to not only start him, but overplay him throughout the game even when it was evident he was sucking it up, was quite surprising for me.

I mean, James Young was +1 or are you going to start arguing that he had a good game?

But sure, I guess we were watching a different game... me and pretty much everyone in the game thread.

After the Lakers game I came on this website planning to post that this game was terribly disappointing from Kelly Olynyk as I felt he got bullied inside and overall played a horrible game and took a big step back.

Now, before I posted I checked the box score and Olynyk was our best player in terms of +/-.

Usually Id dismiss this as a product of being on the court with certain players and luck, but last year he led our team in +/- and RPM where he was rated the 7th best center in the league. This year the stats arent as kind as he is ranked third on the team in RPM but still hes ranked 3rd on the team.

I think the stat is a bit misleading still because he has been tied largely to Isaiah but still there is enough evidence now that Kelly can look bad and help the team that I dont think we can dismiss it when he turns in a good +/-

I agree with much of what you say. Just never been a fan of +/- stats other than when there's a large sample size and used to analyze units vs. other units. Never seen much of a benefit for an individual player other than an outside curiosity.

In-game +/- is also very dependent not only on what your unit is doing, but on what units the opponent is fielding as well during those spans. So in all, just too noisy for my tastes.

Anyways the point was mainly that Olynyk simply didn't have a good game in any facet of the game last night once one goes to the details of the matter.

It's not meant to be looked at at knock on Olynyk, but an observation that's been evident for all the Brooklyn games... that they simply are a poor match-up for him. Nothing more and nothing less. And considering that, something that seemed common knowledge as it is to me, it was very surprising for me that Stevens chose this game to make the change (some of it maybe due to the inclusion of Turner as a starter as well). Furthermore, our next game is against Detroit, another team he's had trouble defending.

So looking forward to how that goes.

Also worth pointing out, that we're applauding a 37 point 1st quarter. Olynyk left the game after 8 minutes with the score at 24 with an 8 point lead. In the final 4 minutes of the game the lead was extended to 15, scoring 13 points during that span. So with Sullinger on the floor early in the game we featured a better offensive out-put in the first quarter and a better defensive result.

I know I complained a lot about Stevens decisions last night, but the one thing that really won us the game in my opinion was the defensive strategy he employed to guard Brooklyn, had our wings and guards double teaming and helping on defense very actively. That was the game.

[chilidawg]

Good points above about both RPM and the limited nature of single game +/- stats.  One thing I'd add is that there were pregame reports that Sullinger was battling some injuries and that was the reason for him not starting.  Injuries combined with lack of fitness probably combined to keep his minutes limited and thus bringing him off the bench made sense.

KO continually confounds me as well as he often doesn't look that good when I get to watch, but the overall numbers say he's doing a good job.  They say Sullinger is even better, its just a shame he can't keep himself fit enough to play starter's minutes.

[danglertx]

I think we watched a different game.  Thad Young was 9-18 with 23 points and a -7.  KO was a +11.  I guess you can say Young had his way with KO, maybe he went 9-9 on KO and missed the rest of his shots and got all his rebounds on Kelly but how do you explain KO's +11 even when he didn't shoot well at all if he was horrible at defense, horrible at rebounding, and didn't shoot particularly well? 

It isn't like this is KO's only game like that either. 

Just because a player doesn't have a good game doesn't mean the unit he's participating in can't produce well. Crowder had a great game, Johnson had a very good game, Thomas had a productive game. Turner started the game very very well. All of this contributed to Olynyk having a postive on-the-floor game.

But sorry, overall he had a poor game and it begins with his defense and rebounding. As mentioned the Nets are a poor match-up for him. In the previous game he could barely get off the bench due to it as it was. So Stevens decision to not only start him, but overplay him throughout the game even when it was evident he was sucking it up, was quite surprising for me.

I mean, James Young was +1 or are you going to start arguing that he had a good game?

But sure, I guess we were watching a different game... me and pretty much everyone in the game thread.

If James Young was consistently a +1 player I guess I'd have to say he was slightly above average.

I think +/- is the best stat in basketball, maybe in all of sports.  It measures your entire impact on the game.  It measures setting picks, moving the ball, keeping balls alive, help defense, blocking out your man so a guard can get a rebound, spacing the floor, and everything usually covered by traditional stats.  It is in fact, the only stat that matters.  If you are a + player consistently no matter who you play against, or who plays with you, you must be good at something that is helping your team win.  Maybe you are just good at picking up fouls on poor free throw shooters and not taking shots, but it is obviously helping your team win.  Over one game I grant you it isn't necessarily the be all end all but actually, isn't it?  You can say KO was horrible but for 34 minutes when he was out there we were 11 points better than the Nets, and for the other 14 minutes we were -2. 

Did everyone else overcome his ineptitude for the time while he was out there and then fall apart when he left?  Maybe he is just 9pts less sucky than his replacement?