take Danny back in time ..........

[mqtcelticsfan]

David West in the Pacers opener tonite - 11 pts & 12 boards incl/ 7 offensive - we could use that. you are correct in that i am not familiar with the inside details on the West flirtation. did he choose Indy for more money, plain & simple ? could we have offered him that much, just for a couple of seasons or would it have mattered ?

Indy offered more money and more importantly didn't have to negotiate with New Orleans to do so.

Tony Allen is only a leading candidate for Defensive Player of the Year and he, like Perk, was partly responsible for bringing the toughness that we are now lacking a little. with Perk & Tony, no one even thought about pushing us like the Bulls did in that embarrassing game near the end of last season. i'd sure take Tony Allen over what Jeff Greene provided last year.

Tony Allen plays 20 minutes a night for Memphis. To say he's a leading candidate for DPOY is like saying that Brandon Bass is on pace to win MVP.

as for Semih and Nate, i always thought they were decent players. Nate isn't a point and he was somewhat hindered by that responsibility - and he often came up big in big games. Semih could at least move and i think he would have kept improving. i'd sure rather have Nate and Semih than Avery Bradley and Greg Stiemsma.

At this point you're bemoaning the loss of a guy who is currently a free agent because he's bad at basketball and a guy who would be the 15th guy on the squad.

plus, without all of Danny's clever changes, we would have maintained the chemistry, togetherness and continuity that this group seems to thrive on, exception being i'll admit it was time for Glen Davis to go for his sake as well as ours.

It's not like he blew up the team on a whim. This is professional basketball, name one team that has kept its bench intact for the past 3 years.

[mqtcelticsfan]

the bigger problem has been the horrid drafting.

No doubt.  Trading with Phoenix in the draft and getting Rondo in the 20's was dumb.  He should of waited til like the 30's, where he usually drafts since the team is a contender year in and year out.

Drafting a guy like BBD or Al Jefferson was horrid as well.  I mean, who can you trade BBD or Jefferson for ?  Or a Rondo ?

the thread post was going back 3 years.

2007 - traded the first for Ray Allen, but took Gabe Pruitt at 32 notable after him aside from Glen Davis (who was a good pick) - Marc Gasol, Josh McRoberts, Dominic McGuire, Aaron Gray, Ramon Sessions.

2008 - Boston takes JR Giddens, the next 6 picks included these four players all of which would actually help the Celtics this year: Deandre Jordan, Nikola Pekovic, Mario Chalmers, Omir Asik.

2009 - no picks

2010 - Avery Bradley (raw player coming off a knee surgery) - Still a bit early to tell with this draft, but a couple of notables after him are Greivis Vasquez and Landry Fields.


The Celtics missed badly when drafting the last four seasons (aside from Glen Davis).  Perhaps if Ainge had drafted better the future of the team as a contender wouldn't be ending this summer. 

How is this horrid drafting? These players were not reached for and were solid value as of draft day.

If you expect to get a player that will be superior to every player drafted after him EVERY TIME you make a pick, you're going to be disappointed no matter what team your talking about.

Pruitt and Giddens aren't even in the league anymore.  Bradley has looked awful.  That is essentially 2 first round picks that didn't even last 3 years in the league, and Bradley is well on his way to being a third.  That is poor drafting.  You can't hit homeruns every time, but you certainly should expect your first round picks to last at least through their rookie contracts.

Here's a look at how drafted players do, relative to draft position:



Players picked in the very late first / early 2nd are rarely successful.

This times infinity. I can't even begin to stress this enough.

[TripleOT]

In Ainge's defense, no one picked after Bradley at 19 has done all that much in the NBA so far besides Landry Fields at 39.  Jordan Crawford has done some scoring, but very inefficiently.  Trevor Booker has had a few good moments too, but in general, that draft really has sucked so far, besides the lottery picks, Bledloe, and Fields.   

[Chris]

So, let's break this down...

If Danny didn't trade Perkins, they might have saved last season (who really knows, and its not to relevant to this discussion), but it would have made little difference for this season, since he would have just signed with OKC or another team willing to give him a huge deal.  Perhaps Danny could have been able to work out a sign and trade for a TPE, but that would be the best they could hope for, and that wouldn't have been a given.

Losing West was not Danny's decision.  West went to Indy, because their offer was going to come off the table if he waited for the C's, and the chances of the sign and trade getting past NOH ownership were pretty slim IMO.

Semih has become one of the most overrated players in Celtics history.  I think Stiemsma is better than him, because he can actually defend the pick and roll.

Allen would be nice, although I think he would have been just as infuriating to watch (and coach) as he was for all his years in Boston...he just did not fit into their system.

[Moranis]

the bigger problem has been the horrid drafting.

No doubt.  Trading with Phoenix in the draft and getting Rondo in the 20's was dumb.  He should of waited til like the 30's, where he usually drafts since the team is a contender year in and year out.

Drafting a guy like BBD or Al Jefferson was horrid as well.  I mean, who can you trade BBD or Jefferson for ?  Or a Rondo ?

the thread post was going back 3 years.

2007 - traded the first for Ray Allen, but took Gabe Pruitt at 32 notable after him aside from Glen Davis (who was a good pick) - Marc Gasol, Josh McRoberts, Dominic McGuire, Aaron Gray, Ramon Sessions.

2008 - Boston takes JR Giddens, the next 6 picks included these four players all of which would actually help the Celtics this year: Deandre Jordan, Nikola Pekovic, Mario Chalmers, Omir Asik.

2009 - no picks

2010 - Avery Bradley (raw player coming off a knee surgery) - Still a bit early to tell with this draft, but a couple of notables after him are Greivis Vasquez and Landry Fields.


The Celtics missed badly when drafting the last four seasons (aside from Glen Davis).  Perhaps if Ainge had drafted better the future of the team as a contender wouldn't be ending this summer. 

How is this horrid drafting? These players were not reached for and were solid value as of draft day.

If you expect to get a player that will be superior to every player drafted after him EVERY TIME you make a pick, you're going to be disappointed no matter what team your talking about.

Pruitt and Giddens aren't even in the league anymore.  Bradley has looked awful.  That is essentially 2 first round picks that didn't even last 3 years in the league, and Bradley is well on his way to being a third.  That is poor drafting.  You can't hit homeruns every time, but you certainly should expect your first round picks to last at least through their rookie contracts.

Here's a look at how drafted players do, relative to draft position:



Players picked in the very late first / early 2nd are rarely successful.

all but Walter Sharpe of the next 11 players taken after JR Giddens were more successful in the league and many of those are currently starters or solid rotation players.  So while it is generally true, Ainge drafted poorly in 2008.  I don't think that can really be debated. 

Bradley looks awful.  I know he still might turn into something, but he just downright looks bad.  Couple that with the SG taken directly after him (James Anderson) who is a solid rotation player for the Spurs right now (21 minutes in game 1).

[Inside-Out]

the bigger problem has been the horrid drafting.

No doubt.  Trading with Phoenix in the draft and getting Rondo in the 20's was dumb.  He should of waited til like the 30's, where he usually drafts since the team is a contender year in and year out.

Drafting a guy like BBD or Al Jefferson was horrid as well.  I mean, who can you trade BBD or Jefferson for ?  Or a Rondo ?

the thread post was going back 3 years.

2007 - traded the first for Ray Allen, but took Gabe Pruitt at 32 notable after him aside from Glen Davis (who was a good pick) - Marc Gasol, Josh McRoberts, Dominic McGuire, Aaron Gray, Ramon Sessions.

2008 - Boston takes JR Giddens, the next 6 picks included these four players all of which would actually help the Celtics this year: Deandre Jordan, Nikola Pekovic, Mario Chalmers, Omir Asik.

2009 - no picks

2010 - Avery Bradley (raw player coming off a knee surgery) - Still a bit early to tell with this draft, but a couple of notables after him are Greivis Vasquez and Landry Fields.


The Celtics missed badly when drafting the last four seasons (aside from Glen Davis).  Perhaps if Ainge had drafted better the future of the team as a contender wouldn't be ending this summer. 

How is this horrid drafting? These players were not reached for and were solid value as of draft day.

If you expect to get a player that will be superior to every player drafted after him EVERY TIME you make a pick, you're going to be disappointed no matter what team your talking about.

Pruitt and Giddens aren't even in the league anymore.  Bradley has looked awful.  That is essentially 2 first round picks that didn't even last 3 years in the league, and Bradley is well on his way to being a third.  That is poor drafting.  You can't hit homeruns every time, but you certainly should expect your first round picks to last at least through their rookie contracts.

Here's a look at how drafted players do, relative to draft position:



Players picked in the very late first / early 2nd are rarely successful.

Okay...the stat nuts around here are enough of a brain-drain to read through, but charts are just too [dang] much, Roy.

Minus one TP for you.

[tenn_smoothie]

Tony Allen is only a leading candidate for Defensive Player of the Year and he, like Perk, was partly responsible for bringing the toughness that we are now lacking a little. with Perk & Tony, no one even thought about pushing us like the Bulls did in that embarrassing game near the end of last season. i'd sure take Tony Allen over what Jeff Greene provided last year.

Tony Allen plays 20 minutes a night for Memphis. To say he's a leading candidate for DPOY is like saying that Brandon Bass is on pace to win MVP.

plus, without all of Danny's clever changes, we would have maintained the chemistry, togetherness and continuity that this group seems to thrive on, exception being i'll admit it was time for Glen Davis to go for his sake as well as ours.

It's not like he blew up the team on a whim. This is professional basketball, name one team that has kept its bench intact for the past 3 years.

Tony Allen was one of the three top vote getters for DPOY on ESPN's NBA site in their pre-season predicitons.

Tony Allen, a tough, hard-nosed defender, didn't fit our system ?? huh ?


from where i sit, Danny did give Perk away on a whim. it was a return to his previous, and natural, MO. Ainge has always been trade-happy, whether the trades made sense or not (trade Toine one year to add athleticism and then trade to reaquire him a year later).

as for the number of teams who have retained the same bench for 3 years, we are not talking about a bench player here and, as i stated previously, this group is not just any team. they thrived on chemistry and togetherness - a fact that Danny was evidently ignorant of.

[mqtcelticsfan]

Did they really thrive off togetherness, or was it the best defensive system in the NBA led by one of the best defenders in NBA history and a solid collection of talent?

[PosImpos]

So, let's break this down...

If Danny didn't trade Perkins, they might have saved last season (who really knows, and its not to relevant to this discussion), but it would have made little difference for this season, since he would have just signed with OKC or another team willing to give him a huge deal.  Perhaps Danny could have been able to work out a sign and trade for a TPE, but that would be the best they could hope for, and that wouldn't have been a given.

Losing West was not Danny's decision.  West went to Indy, because their offer was going to come off the table if he waited for the C's, and the chances of the sign and trade getting past NOH ownership were pretty slim IMO.

Semih has become one of the most overrated players in Celtics history.  I think Stiemsma is better than him, because he can actually defend the pick and roll.

Allen would be nice, although I think he would have been just as infuriating to watch (and coach) as he was for all his years in Boston...he just did not fit into their system.

ding ding ding.

we can all imagine what might have happened if Danny made different decisions, and in our imaginations we can choose to believe that things would be much better.  but the reality, I think, is much closer to what Chris has laid out here.