Danny: "Jeff Green could be a better defender than Perk Right Now and in future"

[BballTim]

Not this season. Howard has improved a lot. He put some sweet moves on Perk last time.

Howard wasn´t so impressive when Big Baby was guarding him.

I would like to see some stats that back up this assertion.

  Again, checking the stats for our last Orlando game, Dwight shot 5-7 with 3 made free throws in the 12 minutes without Perk, and 5-13 with 5 made free throws in his 33 minutes against Perk.

Yeah, I think there is no doubt that Perk is the best Howard defender in the league, and there is no one really close.

The question is, does your ability to defend one player (who is not even on a team that is the biggest threat for the C's) mean more than a stronger offense against many teams, as well as stronger defense against other perimeter players on teams like Miami, LA, and San Antonio?

IMO, no. 

Personally, I think people are getting too hung up on the Dwight Howard matchup and putting way too much weight into it.  They'll be dozens & dozens of matchups down the road.  Not just that one. 

  Dwight Howard has been in our path to the Finals the last few years and likely could be again this year. But people are acting like Perk can defend Howard especially well but is average or worse against everyone else. That's not the case.

[BballTim]

But liking the trade or thinking that Perk is a detriment to our offense doesn't mean that he's a pedestrian defender.

Let me just be 100% clear that I do not think Perk is a pedestrian defender.  He is a tremendous defensive player.  I just don't think he is Bill Russell, or even Ben Wallace.  He is a guy who is an average defender against certain guys, and a great defender against other guys.  But he is not a franchise changing defender who can completely dominate a game on that end of the court night in and night out.

  Saying Perk isn't a Russell or a Wallace is kind of like saying that someone isn't a Bird or a Magic. They're clearly among the best ever. Perk's just as clearly among the best low post defenders in the game. And, yes, he struggles trying to guard certain players, just like almost everyone else on the planet does. But even in those games he still protects the rim when players get into the paint.

[Chris]

Not this season. Howard has improved a lot. He put some sweet moves on Perk last time.

Howard wasn´t so impressive when Big Baby was guarding him.

I would like to see some stats that back up this assertion.

  Again, checking the stats for our last Orlando game, Dwight shot 5-7 with 3 made free throws in the 12 minutes without Perk, and 5-13 with 5 made free throws in his 33 minutes against Perk.

Yeah, I think there is no doubt that Perk is the best Howard defender in the league, and there is no one really close.

The question is, does your ability to defend one player (who is not even on a team that is the biggest threat for the C's) mean more than a stronger offense against many teams, as well as stronger defense against other perimeter players on teams like Miami, LA, and San Antonio?

IMO, no. 

Personally, I think people are getting too hung up on the Dwight Howard matchup and putting way too much weight into it.  They'll be dozens & dozens of matchups down the road.  Not just that one. 

  Dwight Howard has been in our path to the Finals the last few years and likely could be again this year. But people are acting like Perk can defend Howard especially well but is average or worse against everyone else. That's not the case.

I can't speak for anyone else, but if I am coming across that way, that is not what I mean.  He is above average against most matchups, and average at worst against a select few matchups.

I think the issue is, there really are not any other guys on contending teams that Perk is dominant against (and needs to be dominant against) other than Howard.  

Against the Heat, Lakers, Spurs, Mavs, and Bulls, there is not a dominant center that Perkins has had incredible success against.  Either they have guys who are not as good matchups for Perk (Duncan, Bynum, Gasol), or they just don't have anyone who you really need to worry about offensively in the middle (Heat, Bulls, Mavs).  

Really, Howard is the main matchup (against a contender) where Perk's value defensively dramatically outweighs any deficiencies offensively.

[Chris]

But liking the trade or thinking that Perk is a detriment to our offense doesn't mean that he's a pedestrian defender.

Let me just be 100% clear that I do not think Perk is a pedestrian defender.  He is a tremendous defensive player.  I just don't think he is Bill Russell, or even Ben Wallace.  He is a guy who is an average defender against certain guys, and a great defender against other guys.  But he is not a franchise changing defender who can completely dominate a game on that end of the court night in and night out.

  Saying Perk isn't a Russell or a Wallace is kind of like saying that someone isn't a Bird or a Magic. They're clearly among the best ever. Perk's just as clearly among the best low post defenders in the game. And, yes, he struggles trying to guard certain players, just like almost everyone else on the planet does. But even in those games he still protects the rim when players get into the paint.

What I am is that a guy like Russell or Wallace can get away with not doing much offensively (although Russell did give them plenty offensively), and still be a guy you build your team around, because they are on such another level defensively.  I don't think Perkins is good enough for that.

[Casperian]

I didn't insult you Casperian, I issued you a warning based on two sarcastic comments directed towards another posters question to your viewpoint.

If you want to discuss it further we can do it in PMs, but either way those sort of comments are not going to be okay. Nor is outright baiting of a moderator when a warning is issued

Alright, you´re the mod, you even have the mod colors, and I abide by the rules. Just know that I don´t agree with this sort of argumentation, hence my sarcastic comments.

Now, if I have to report any post made by "well-known" posters where they respond in a sarcastic manner, this board would soon be pretty empty.

It´s called "argument from ignorance"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

I don´t have to bring stats that the sky is blue, either.

The fact that Perkins was traded should show everyone that Ainge is not overly concerned about the Howard matchup (or better, that it´s not a priority). It´s not crazy to assume that he´s confident that Shaq and Baby will be enough to deal with the Magic.

Baby´s ability to defend taller Centers is well documented, from Tim Duncan to Big Z to Dwight Howard. There are no stats that prove this statement, or they are very hard to come by, asking for them is simply a cop-out (even if he´s not aware of it) to distract from the actual argument: that we don´t need Perk to defend Dwight, even though he might be better at it than anyone else on our roster.

[BballTim]

Not this season. Howard has improved a lot. He put some sweet moves on Perk last time.

Howard wasn´t so impressive when Big Baby was guarding him.

I would like to see some stats that back up this assertion.

  Again, checking the stats for our last Orlando game, Dwight shot 5-7 with 3 made free throws in the 12 minutes without Perk, and 5-13 with 5 made free throws in his 33 minutes against Perk.

Yeah, I think there is no doubt that Perk is the best Howard defender in the league, and there is no one really close.

The question is, does your ability to defend one player (who is not even on a team that is the biggest threat for the C's) mean more than a stronger offense against many teams, as well as stronger defense against other perimeter players on teams like Miami, LA, and San Antonio?

IMO, no. 

Personally, I think people are getting too hung up on the Dwight Howard matchup and putting way too much weight into it.  They'll be dozens & dozens of matchups down the road.  Not just that one. 

  Dwight Howard has been in our path to the Finals the last few years and likely could be again this year. But people are acting like Perk can defend Howard especially well but is average or worse against everyone else. That's not the case.

I can't speak for anyone else, but if I am coming across that way, that is not what I mean.  He is above average against most matchups, and average at worst against a select few matchups.

I think the issue is, there really are not any other guys on contending teams that Perk is dominant against (and needs to be dominant against) other than Howard.  

Against the Heat, Lakers, Spurs, Mavs, and Bulls, there is not a dominant center that Perkins has had incredible success against.  Either they have guys who are not as good matchups for Perk (Duncan, Bynum, Gasol), or they just don't have anyone who you really need to worry about offensively in the middle (Heat, Bulls, Mavs).  

Really, Howard is the main matchup (against a contender) where Perk's value defensively dramatically outweighs any deficiencies offensively.

  I don't think you can necessarily find stats to show it but I think that Perk also has value against slashers such as Wade and LeBron, and I think he does better against Gasol than you give him credit for. LeBron's held in check by Boston in the playoffs compared to other teams and it's not all because PP keeps him out of the lane single-handedly.  The bigs behind him cut off his path to the basket when he gets an angle on PP. KG does this well but so does Perk.

[Chris]

Not this season. Howard has improved a lot. He put some sweet moves on Perk last time.

Howard wasn´t so impressive when Big Baby was guarding him.

I would like to see some stats that back up this assertion.

  Again, checking the stats for our last Orlando game, Dwight shot 5-7 with 3 made free throws in the 12 minutes without Perk, and 5-13 with 5 made free throws in his 33 minutes against Perk.

Yeah, I think there is no doubt that Perk is the best Howard defender in the league, and there is no one really close.

The question is, does your ability to defend one player (who is not even on a team that is the biggest threat for the C's) mean more than a stronger offense against many teams, as well as stronger defense against other perimeter players on teams like Miami, LA, and San Antonio?

IMO, no. 

Personally, I think people are getting too hung up on the Dwight Howard matchup and putting way too much weight into it.  They'll be dozens & dozens of matchups down the road.  Not just that one. 

  Dwight Howard has been in our path to the Finals the last few years and likely could be again this year. But people are acting like Perk can defend Howard especially well but is average or worse against everyone else. That's not the case.

I can't speak for anyone else, but if I am coming across that way, that is not what I mean.  He is above average against most matchups, and average at worst against a select few matchups.

I think the issue is, there really are not any other guys on contending teams that Perk is dominant against (and needs to be dominant against) other than Howard.  

Against the Heat, Lakers, Spurs, Mavs, and Bulls, there is not a dominant center that Perkins has had incredible success against.  Either they have guys who are not as good matchups for Perk (Duncan, Bynum, Gasol), or they just don't have anyone who you really need to worry about offensively in the middle (Heat, Bulls, Mavs).  

Really, Howard is the main matchup (against a contender) where Perk's value defensively dramatically outweighs any deficiencies offensively.

  I don't think you can necessarily find stats to show it but I think that Perk also has value against slashers such as Wade and LeBron, and I think he does better against Gasol than you give him credit for. LeBron's held in check by Boston in the playoffs compared to other teams and it's not all because PP keeps him out of the lane single-handedly.  The bigs behind him cut off his path to the basket when he gets an angle on PP. KG does this well but so does Perk.

You don't need stats.  Our eyes tell us he has tremendous value against those guys, and I agree that his ability to hedge on the perimeter is hugely valuable.  However, I don't think that value is nearly as great as his value against Howard, and I personally don't think it outweighs his lack of offense enough to pass up on a versatile talent like Green who helps against those guys with both his defense, but also his offensive versatility.

Also, I do give him credit for playing well against Gasol.  However, he wouldn't be matched up against Gasol that much.  He would normally be covering Bynum (who he struggles a bit against).

I suppose another issue with this discussion is that I am in the minority believing JO is going to be back for the playoffs, and I think JO does just about everything defensively as well (or better) as Perk, other than defend Howard.  I understand most people are not counting on him, but I am, and that plays a huge part in the way I see this. 

[snowball]

Perk is the better defender.

geez, who thinks the management of
OKC Thunder are total morons ??
 

[droponov]

I suppose another issue with this discussion is that I am in the minority believing JO is going to be back for the playoffs, and I think JO does just about everything defensively as well (or better) as Perk, other than defend Howard.  I understand most people are not counting on him, but I am, and that plays a huge part in the way I see this. 

I think JO does everything almost as well as Perkins. A little bit worse at everything. But I do agree that having Jermaine O'Neal is the reason to not be concerned about not having Perkins, his contributions are replaceable.

But that doesn't mean Perkins isn't an elite defender or that his impact is reduced to a series with Orlando or that he's overrated as a defender. That would be a non sequitur.

[BballTim]

  However, I don't think that value is nearly as great as his value against Howard, and I personally don't think it outweighs his lack of offense enough to pass up on a versatile talent like Green who helps against those guys with both his defense, but also his offensive versatility.

  I'm not arguing that Perk's a good defender because I'm a big opponent of the trade or because I don't think the offense will be better without him. I'm arguing that he's a good defender because it's true.

[Chris]

  However, I don't think that value is nearly as great as his value against Howard, and I personally don't think it outweighs his lack of offense enough to pass up on a versatile talent like Green who helps against those guys with both his defense, but also his offensive versatility.

  I'm not arguing that Perk's a good defender because I'm a big opponent of the trade or because I don't think the offense will be better without him. I'm arguing that he's a good defender because it's true.

I think we are probably arguing over nothing here then.  Because I also think Perk is a great defender.  I just thought the package they got for him might be more valuable than what Perk brought to the table. 

[BballTim]

  However, I don't think that value is nearly as great as his value against Howard, and I personally don't think it outweighs his lack of offense enough to pass up on a versatile talent like Green who helps against those guys with both his defense, but also his offensive versatility.

  I'm not arguing that Perk's a good defender because I'm a big opponent of the trade or because I don't think the offense will be better without him. I'm arguing that he's a good defender because it's true.

I think we are probably arguing over nothing here then.  Because I also think Perk is a great defender.  I just thought the package they got for him might be more valuable than what Perk brought to the table. 

  It's still too soon to tell, but obviously I hope that this is the case as well.

[ImShakHeIsShaq]

SOME of you act like w/o KP DH will abuse us down low... while also saying it as if Shaq is garbage defensively against DH. Okay, if you are right... show me DH stats against KP and then against Shaq. I'm no stat girl but I have seen every game Shaq has played against DH, I can't remember any of those games where Shaq got abused by him. Not only did Shaq hold up good against him defensively, he also added OFFENSE! Again, just last season Clev. got Shaq b/c of that match-up... so obviously even and old Shaq can hang w/ Howard effectively! If you want to say KP is a better 1vs1 defender against DH (anyone), I would agree w/ you, seeing that Shaq is old as hell... but to insist that DH just dogs Shaq out is BS! KP is no longer here, get over it... let's get behind the guys who are! (BTW: I did not like the trade at all! I'm also waiting for our new guys to show it was a good move.) Let's go Celtics!!

And, Shaq will be healthy when?

Probably before or the same time Perk is! I have asked many times for "you" to show me the times Shaq hasn't been healthy enough to play in the playoffs... I'll wait.

[Celtics4ever]

I take it as he is better athlete and will grow into that role.  Green's athletic ability which Perk has very little except for body strength, he isn't fast per se and doesn't have a good vertical but he is stout, is very solid. He also has long arms and is rangy.   Most reports state he is intelligent and often overlooked but very valuable defensive component.

Call me crazy, I never thought I would agree with Phil Jackson, but I want to see how good Perk is without KG barking orders in his ear.  I think he will regress.  I am glad he cashed he deserved it.  I hope he does well but I just ain't seeing it.

[GreenFaith1819]

SOME of you act like w/o KP DH will abuse us down low... while also saying it as if Shaq is garbage defensively against DH. Okay, if you are right... show me DH stats against KP and then against Shaq. I'm no stat girl but I have seen every game Shaq has played against DH, I can't remember any of those games where Shaq got abused by him. Not only did Shaq hold up good against him defensively, he also added OFFENSE! Again, just last season Clev. got Shaq b/c of that match-up... so obviously even and old Shaq can hang w/ Howard effectively! If you want to say KP is a better 1vs1 defender against DH (anyone), I would agree w/ you, seeing that Shaq is old as hell... but to insist that DH just dogs Shaq out is BS! KP is no longer here, get over it... let's get behind the guys who are! (BTW: I did not like the trade at all! I'm also waiting for our new guys to show it was a good move.) Let's go Celtics!!

And, Shaq will be healthy when?

Probably before or the same time Perk is! I have asked many times for "you" to show me the times Shaq hasn't been healthy enough to play in the playoffs... I'll wait.

As for Shaq, I have no doubt whatsoever that he won't be starting for us once again.

He'll be there for our playoff run, and even before that.

Not to deflect the thread in question, but I marveled at how well Shaq played with our starters. With him on the floor, we had 5 viable offensive threats.