If doc is a good coach why does he do this?

[nickagneta]

Certainly, I don't care for the amount of minutes they're playing at the moment, and I disagree with many of the Doc critics in here for the amount of harshness employed over this one game. But it also doesn't mean that their concern is not valid because it is.

See I agree. I think the harshness and the conviction that some are criticizing Doc here over last night's game is just to me, not understandable. If this was game 32 or 42 or 62, then you are 100% right, there's a problem and the minutes being played needs to be criticized and justly so. 40 MPG for Ray on average is way too much.

But again, he has a history of not only playing big minutes early in the season, but wanting to and requesting to. So for him, after game two, I think the amount of flak is unjustified.

But if at the end of the year Ray has played an average of 35-36 MPG, I really don't see a big difference between that and 32-33 MPG, which is where I am guessing some people want to see the Big Three at.

36-37 I'm comfortable with. I think it's irrational to shoot for the 32-33 mark and hold Doc accountable for it.

We will see. My guess is that some will be complaining no matter what the minutes turn out to be.

[Eja117]

Obviously, big minutes doesn't necessarily lead to fatigue... but it's a component of it. Completely dismissing it is foolish.

In a team like the Celtics, for example, were everyone is expected to play hard every single possession... a team that plays hard in both sides of the court, it can really take it's toll.

It's like me saying that Burger King's sandwiches don't cause people to get fat because I can eat there every day and I'm still lean.

The other side that might be missing in the assessment above are the teams that got tired and didn't accomplish their goals. Where those teams that won the championship while still playing big minutes, was the team overall fresher than the opponent? Those components are missing.

I don't think it's foolish at all. These are professional athletes and I don't see that they would tell you that over the course of a season if they averaged 33-34 minutes per game or 36-38 minutes per game that at the end of the year they would be any more or less fatigued or unable to perform.

Throughout sports it is the superior athlete and talent that wins championships and does so by riding the coat tails of heavy play from their stars. Every single sport ever is that way. We are talking supremely fit beyond anything most of us can imagine. Just because we think we're in shape and get tired after a five mile run doesn't mean that an athlete the caliber of Ray Allen would. He might not have even broken a major sweat or be seriously winded after a five mile run.

I think much too many of us try to instill what we are aware of in athletics into the thinking of what it is like for professional athletes and honestly, I think most of us are clueless in that regard as to what really tires these guys out and what they can and can't do over the course of a year.

3-4 extra MPG for Ray Allen during a stretch in time over the course of the season is eventually going to mean very little come playoff time where the true champions are playing with there minds and less so with there bodies anyways.

Nick I agree with you saying 33 mins/game vs 35 probably doesn't make much of a difference for a pro athlete of the course of a year.

But I don't agree with the idea that a pro athlete needs an extra 3 minutes in a blowout to get in shape

Also I'm not as worried about fatigue as injury. Seeing what happened to Brady and Tony Allen just makes me feel like injury can happen randomly any time and I think he's less likely to get hurt on the bench so I really don't want any of our guys ever playing meaningless minutes, not just Ray

[BballTim]

As I said, minutes it's not the sole reason for fatigue, it's merely a component that shouldn't be dismissed. And considering how the Celtics play the game, quite hard in just about every possession I would argue that minutes are more important for us than many other teams, particularly ones that don't play both sides of the court.

I agree that minutes can't be dismissed.  But I also do not believe they are a reason for concern at this point in the season.

I also believe that they are very different for different players.  

For example, against most teams, KG playing 32 minutes causes about the same fatigue as Ray Allen playing 42 minutes.  Because of the way they play, and the energy level exerted, there needs to be a sliding scale.  

  I think that, for some games, KG exerts as much enrgy before the game even starts as Ray does in 42 minutes..

  Seriously, there are minutes and then there are minutes. The 4th quarter minutes against Cleveland the other night were fairly tough minutes. The 4th quarter minutes against Charlotte the other night weren't. As for last year, Doc tried to rest the guys a little for the last few weeks of the season. I think Ray sat out the last few games. He also had his worst shooting game in game 1, when he might have been out of rhythm. Also, even if they were rested going into the playoffs playing a 7 game series with 7 overtimes in 13-14 days when almost every game was close from beginning to end and the team's shorthanded will take it's toll. They'd have still been tired vs Orlando.

[Eja117]

Maybe next game he can play Ray 48 minutes cause he gets a "funny feeling" and can play KG 45 minutes cause "I want to see what happens"

Who's the coach? Ray or Doc?

 and were the ones being unreasonable in not being with you guys on this?

You just did the ultimate strawman. blow the facts way out of proportion and then defeat your own exaggeration.

You would rather the coach of an NBA team tell one of his vets that 3 extra minutes was unreasonable, he doesn't know his own body (this is ray freaking allen we are talking about) and take a hardline stance on those 3 minutes two days into the season then just let him play a few possesions.

 Unbelievable.

It's wild exaggeration posts like the above that make me laugh in these threads.

If taking a situation to it's logical extreme conclusion in order to show the flaw is a straw man or a wild exaggeration, then you are right, that this is exactly what I did

[BballTim]

Certainly, I don't care for the amount of minutes they're playing at the moment, and I disagree with many of the Doc critics in here for the amount of harshness employed over this one game. But it also doesn't mean that their concern is not valid because it is.

See I agree. I think the harshness and the conviction that some are criticizing Doc here over last night's game is just to me, not understandable. If this was game 32 or 42 or 62, then you are 100% right, there's a problem and the minutes being played needs to be criticized and justly so. 40 MPG for Ray on average is way too much.

But again, he has a history of not only playing big minutes early in the season, but wanting to and requesting to. So for him, after game two, I think the amount of flak is unjustified.

But if at the end of the year Ray has played an average of 35-36 MPG, I really don't see a big difference between that and 32-33 MPG, which is where I am guessing some people want to see the Big Three at.

36-37 I'm comfortable with. I think it's irrational to shoot for the 32-33 mark and hold Doc accountable for it.

We will see. My guess is that some will be complaining no matter what the minutes turn out to be.

  My guess is the players might complain if they don't get enough minutes. We're 2 games into the season. Ray wanted to stay in a game when Doc was going to take him out. Paul argued with Doc to be able to play in an exhibition game. These guys don't want to sit on the bench 16-18 minutes a game.

[nickagneta]

Obviously, big minutes doesn't necessarily lead to fatigue... but it's a component of it. Completely dismissing it is foolish.

In a team like the Celtics, for example, were everyone is expected to play hard every single possession... a team that plays hard in both sides of the court, it can really take it's toll.

It's like me saying that Burger King's sandwiches don't cause people to get fat because I can eat there every day and I'm still lean.

The other side that might be missing in the assessment above are the teams that got tired and didn't accomplish their goals. Where those teams that won the championship while still playing big minutes, was the team overall fresher than the opponent? Those components are missing.

I don't think it's foolish at all. These are professional athletes and I don't see that they would tell you that over the course of a season if they averaged 33-34 minutes per game or 36-38 minutes per game that at the end of the year they would be any more or less fatigued or unable to perform.

Throughout sports it is the superior athlete and talent that wins championships and does so by riding the coat tails of heavy play from their stars. Every single sport ever is that way. We are talking supremely fit beyond anything most of us can imagine. Just because we think we're in shape and get tired after a five mile run doesn't mean that an athlete the caliber of Ray Allen would. He might not have even broken a major sweat or be seriously winded after a five mile run.

I think much too many of us try to instill what we are aware of in athletics into the thinking of what it is like for professional athletes and honestly, I think most of us are clueless in that regard as to what really tires these guys out and what they can and can't do over the course of a year.

3-4 extra MPG for Ray Allen during a stretch in time over the course of the season is eventually going to mean very little come playoff time where the true champions are playing with there minds and less so with there bodies anyways.

Nick I agree with you saying 33 mins/game vs 35 probably doesn't make much of a difference for a pro athlete of the course of a year.

But I don't agree with the idea that a pro athlete needs an extra 3 minutes in a blowout to get in shape

Also I'm not as worried about fatigue as injury. Seeing what happened to Brady and Tony Allen just makes me feel like injury can happen randomly any time and I think he's less likely to get hurt on the bench so I really don't want any of our guys ever playing meaningless minutes, not just Ray

I don't worry about injuries. I really don't think you can until you already know that the player is hurting and needs to be held back to protect himself.

Baby got hurt defending himself. Walker got hurt in practice. A few years ago Perk got plantar faceitis(sp?) which he didn't get in a game. Tony Allen hurt himself dunking a ball during a timeout. Think of all the crazy baseball injuries that occur just from everyday life. Didn't some Sox pitcher hurt himself picking up glass and another falling out of bed.

Injuries happen and you can't, especially as a coach, guard against injury by worrying about playing a player too much. You just can't. Not even in football. All you can do is hope the player realizes his limits and plays within himself. In contact sports, as long as the players stick with their technique and stretch enough and stay limber enough, you hope that will suffice.

But you can't make game substitution decisions around the fear of injury. You just can't.

[BudweiserCeltic]

As I said, minutes it's not the sole reason for fatigue, it's merely a component that shouldn't be dismissed. And considering how the Celtics play the game, quite hard in just about every possession I would argue that minutes are more important for us than many other teams, particularly ones that don't play both sides of the court.

I agree that minutes can't be dismissed.  But I also do not believe they are a reason for concern at this point in the season.

I also believe that they are very different for different players.  

For example, against most teams, KG playing 32 minutes causes about the same fatigue as Ray Allen playing 42 minutes.  Because of the way they play, and the energy level exerted, there needs to be a sliding scale.  

  I think that, for some games, KG exerts as much enrgy before the game even starts as Ray does in 42 minutes..

  Seriously, there are minutes and then there are minutes. The 4th quarter minutes against Cleveland the other night were fairly tough minutes. The 4th quarter minutes against Charlotte the other night weren't. As for last year, Doc tried to rest the guys a little for the last few weeks of the season. I think Ray sat out the last few games. He also had his worst shooting game in game 1, when he might have been out of rhythm. Also, even if they were rested going into the playoffs playing a 7 game series with 7 overtimes in 13-14 days when almost every game was close from beginning to end and the team's shorthanded will take it's toll. They'd have still been tired vs Orlando.

Clearly, there has to be a balance. It's finding it. Sitting down Ray during the end of the season has a lot to do also with not wanting to risk injury on the verge of the playoffs. So there's always something to balance there and consider the pros and cons... and it's not always quite clear what the correct decision should be.

But overall, minutes is something that coaches can control, and amidst all the other factors that they can't control, I think it's prudent to do so as far as making sure we're in the best shape possible for our survival of the playoffs.

In the end, fatigue can be either a huge aspect of how the games play out, or it can be irrelevant. Players surely can play through it, and above it, but not always. Even if our players got a bit tired during our championship run, for the most part they managed it well and played through it well. Last year, for whatever reason they couldn't. So it's not something you can really count on the players fighting through. But, it's something that we can be prepared for certainly, and there's no reason to forgo precautions. You don't always know how your players, or the players themselves know for that matter, how they will respond to being tired on any given day or any stretch of games for that matter.

[Eja117]

Obviously, big minutes doesn't necessarily lead to fatigue... but it's a component of it. Completely dismissing it is foolish.

In a team like the Celtics, for example, were everyone is expected to play hard every single possession... a team that plays hard in both sides of the court, it can really take it's toll.

It's like me saying that Burger King's sandwiches don't cause people to get fat because I can eat there every day and I'm still lean.

The other side that might be missing in the assessment above are the teams that got tired and didn't accomplish their goals. Where those teams that won the championship while still playing big minutes, was the team overall fresher than the opponent? Those components are missing.

I don't think it's foolish at all. These are professional athletes and I don't see that they would tell you that over the course of a season if they averaged 33-34 minutes per game or 36-38 minutes per game that at the end of the year they would be any more or less fatigued or unable to perform.

Throughout sports it is the superior athlete and talent that wins championships and does so by riding the coat tails of heavy play from their stars. Every single sport ever is that way. We are talking supremely fit beyond anything most of us can imagine. Just because we think we're in shape and get tired after a five mile run doesn't mean that an athlete the caliber of Ray Allen would. He might not have even broken a major sweat or be seriously winded after a five mile run.

I think much too many of us try to instill what we are aware of in athletics into the thinking of what it is like for professional athletes and honestly, I think most of us are clueless in that regard as to what really tires these guys out and what they can and can't do over the course of a year.

3-4 extra MPG for Ray Allen during a stretch in time over the course of the season is eventually going to mean very little come playoff time where the true champions are playing with there minds and less so with there bodies anyways.

Nick I agree with you saying 33 mins/game vs 35 probably doesn't make much of a difference for a pro athlete of the course of a year.

But I don't agree with the idea that a pro athlete needs an extra 3 minutes in a blowout to get in shape

Also I'm not as worried about fatigue as injury. Seeing what happened to Brady and Tony Allen just makes me feel like injury can happen randomly any time and I think he's less likely to get hurt on the bench so I really don't want any of our guys ever playing meaningless minutes, not just Ray

I don't worry about injuries. I really don't think you can until you already know that the player is hurting and needs to be held back to protect himself.

Baby got hurt defending himself. Walker got hurt in practice. A few years ago Perk got plantar faceitis(sp?) which he didn't get in a game. Tony Allen hurt himself dunking a ball during a timeout. Think of all the crazy baseball injuries that occur just from everyday life. Didn't some Sox pitcher hurt himself picking up glass and another falling out of bed.

Injuries happen and you can't, especially as a coach, guard against injury by worrying about playing a player too much. You just can't. Not even in football. All you can do is hope the player realizes his limits and plays within himself. In contact sports, as long as the players stick with their technique and stretch enough and stay limber enough, you hope that will suffice.

But you can't make game substitution decisions around the fear of injury. You just can't.

95% of the time I'd agree you can't but I think you can in meaningless situations like blowouts and preseason

[guava_wrench]

Obviously, big minutes doesn't necessarily lead to fatigue... but it's a component of it. Completely dismissing it is foolish.

In a team like the Celtics, for example, were everyone is expected to play hard every single possession... a team that plays hard in both sides of the court, it can really take it's toll.

It's like me saying that Burger King's sandwiches don't cause people to get fat because I can eat there every day and I'm still lean.

The other side that might be missing in the assessment above are the teams that got tired and didn't accomplish their goals. Where those teams that won the championship while still playing big minutes, was the team overall fresher than the opponent? Those components are missing.

I don't think it's foolish at all. These are professional athletes and I don't see that they would tell you that over the course of a season if they averaged 33-34 minutes per game or 36-38 minutes per game that at the end of the year they would be any more or less fatigued or unable to perform.

Throughout sports it is the superior athlete and talent that wins championships and does so by riding the coat tails of heavy play from their stars. Every single sport ever is that way. We are talking supremely fit beyond anything most of us can imagine. Just because we think we're in shape and get tired after a five mile run doesn't mean that an athlete the caliber of Ray Allen would. He might not have even broken a major sweat or be seriously winded after a five mile run.

I think much too many of us try to instill what we are aware of in athletics into the thinking of what it is like for professional athletes and honestly, I think most of us are clueless in that regard as to what really tires these guys out and what they can and can't do over the course of a year.

3-4 extra MPG for Ray Allen during a stretch in time over the course of the season is eventually going to mean very little come playoff time where the true champions are playing with there minds and less so with there bodies anyways.

Nick I agree with you saying 33 mins/game vs 35 probably doesn't make much of a difference for a pro athlete of the course of a year.

But I don't agree with the idea that a pro athlete needs an extra 3 minutes in a blowout to get in shape

Also I'm not as worried about fatigue as injury. Seeing what happened to Brady and Tony Allen just makes me feel like injury can happen randomly any time and I think he's less likely to get hurt on the bench so I really don't want any of our guys ever playing meaningless minutes, not just Ray

I don't worry about injuries. I really don't think you can until you already know that the player is hurting and needs to be held back to protect himself.

Baby got hurt defending himself. Walker got hurt in practice. A few years ago Perk got plantar faceitis(sp?) which he didn't get in a game. Tony Allen hurt himself dunking a ball during a timeout. Think of all the crazy baseball injuries that occur just from everyday life. Didn't some Sox pitcher hurt himself picking up glass and another falling out of bed.

Injuries happen and you can't, especially as a coach, guard against injury by worrying about playing a player too much. You just can't. Not even in football. All you can do is hope the player realizes his limits and plays within himself. In contact sports, as long as the players stick with their technique and stretch enough and stay limber enough, you hope that will suffice.

But you can't make game substitution decisions around the fear of injury. You just can't.

Perk also hurt himself setting up a new bed!

[sully00]

The minutes argument is the most ridiculous and irrational argument I think you can have.

Look I know people worry about Ray wearing down, but you realize that Ray probably works harder before the game than when it is going on.

This "if he got hurt in min 40" is the same pansy argument you here about Tom Brady and guess when he got hurt?  If you are worried about Ray breaking a leg why not let him play at all till the postseason?

What you don't want to have happen is what happened last season, that Paul and Ray had to play huge mins and carry the offensive load while nursing injuries.  That sucks.  But Ray playing the same 38 mins he has played his whole career in the second game of the season after only cracking 30 once in the pre season is just a radio talk show nonsense.

I hope Comcast or someone shows what Ray does for a pre game warm up some time just so people grasp how ridiculous this is.  It isn't the mins it is playing mins injured Ray isn't injured right now.

[Chris]

By the way, I am watching the Babcats game on DVR right now, and the only reason Ray played so many minutes was because he was only able to sit for a few seconds in the first half due to foul trouble for both Pierce and Daniels.  At that point it was still a relatively close game, and Doc did not want to have to sit Pierce, Daniels, and Allen at the same time.  If it weren't for the foul trouble, he likely would have playing only 30-32 minutes, and this wouldn't even be an issue.

[nickagneta]

By the way, I am watching the Babcats game on DVR right now, and the only reason Ray played so many minutes was because he was only able to sit for a few seconds in the first half due to foul trouble for both Pierce and Daniels.  At that point it was still a relatively close game, and Doc did not want to have to sit Pierce, Daniels, and Allen at the same time.  If it weren't for the foul trouble, he likely would have playing only 30-32 minutes, and this wouldn't even be an issue.

That was mentioned early in the thread Chris, but what got most "detractors" irritated was the minutes in the second half.

[Bossco]

Did anyone catch the post game presser tonight after the Chicago game? KG just said that it was important for the young players to get experience. That having the bench be able to hold and even push the lead is great. It takes a lot of pressure off the starters. They need fresh legs for later on in the season. These are KG's words.

The question in my mind is this:When you are thrashing a team by 25 - 30 points isn't that the time to put in the subs?

Red used to light up when he knew he had the game. I don't think doc ever feels that there is a comfortable enough lead. Playing the other players when the victory is won is important because you never know when you are going to rely on them a lot in the future. Experience, chemistry - the starters already have that. Make sure the other players have the confidence by letting them play.

doc did that tonight, I hope he continues to do it.

P.S. I used to scream bloody murder for doc to put Leon Powe in the game when there was a blowout early in our championship year. He usually waited until there were just a few minutes left. I hope that he will have more faith in this bench and let them play extended minutes when we smoke someone and let the star vets have fun on the bench with the jumbotron instead.

[nickagneta]

Guess Ray asking for those extra minutes to get his form and legs going worked. He was 7-9 tonight in 23 minutes.

[MattG12]

Doc is such a bad coach... 23 minutes is way too much in a blowout.