Dwyer: 10 best NBA players of the decade

[KCattheStripe]

In this decade KG has also played in 105 more games than Shaq has. So he has played more than a full NBA season longer than Shaq did. 105 more games than Shaq of ridiculous production...

Fair, but I take titles over games played. Do those numbers count playoffs?

No I was just looking at regular season. I'm sure that even with the playoff games it's still probably about 82 more games played anyway. We'll never agree on this and there is too much info for me to look up here at work to try and persuade you more (lol). You said before something about who's better Russell or Wilt and I didn't think that helped your  argument much. I think there are PLENTY of people out there that say Wilt was better than Russell and some that say he was the greatest ever..

It was in response to someone saying that titles shouldn't matter when evaluating players head to head, and I think the people who view Chamberlin as better is further in the minority than you think.

This would be a nice little debate to see. Looking up a quick search of it i found this article arguing Wilt is a better player than Russell (of course i can't agree). Here is the link: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/180402-why-wilt-chamberlain-is-better-than-bill-russell .. Not sure how legit the source/writer is but it's one perspective.

Another thing, based on your reasoning would you say that Pierce is a better player than Lebron in the past 5 years? they play the same position, have similar numbers but Pierce has the ring. I think even on this board most people will begrudgingly admit that Lebron is superior.

I do as well, because LeBRon has been more statistically dominant over Pierce than KG ever was over Shaq. Also, Lebron took his team to an NBA finals Pierce won one. Thats not as big a difference as Shaq making it to 5 NBA finals and winning 4 to KGs 1 and 1.

Lebron actually is not that much more statistically dominant over Pierce in the last 5 years. Actually it's probably similar to KG v. Shaq where KG had better stats in more categories than Shaq. Lebron basically has avg. a couple more points a game in most seasons (more in the last 2) has had pretty much the same rebounding numbers maybe 1 1.5 more and about 2 more assists. I guess you could say that his most recent numbers are inflated because he was the focal point of the offense (much like KG in Minn). I wouldn't call those numbers "dominant" over Pierce at all.

                                  Paul Pierce                                      LeBron
2004-2005         22ppg/7rebs/4 assts                      27/7/7
05-06                    27/7/5                                              31/7/7
06-07                   25/6/4                                               27/7/6
07-08                   20/5/5                                                 30/8/7
08-09                   21/6/4                                                 28/8/7

Most numbers rounded up. It looks worse for Paul when you factor in blocks and steals.

I guess I just don't see that as dominant. The same can be said about KG vs. Shaq stats.

'03 '04 KG  24ppg/14rpg/5apg/2spg/2bpg    Shaq 22/12/3/.5/3

04 05       22/14/6/2/1                        23/10/3/.5/2

05 06       22/13/4/2/1                        20/9/2/.5/2

06 07       22/13/4/1/1                        17/7/2/.5/1

07 08       19/9/3/1/2                         13/9/1/.5/1

I would definitely say that that is more dominant over Shaq, and more dominant than Lebron has been over pierce the past 5 years

First off, you're a round downer. LAME!

Second, Shaq did lead KG in some catagories during that stretch whereas Pierce did not lead LeBron in any.

Third, For much of the LeBron/Pierce stretch neither of them had greta players playing along side them where as Shaq did which lowered the demand on him and his numbers.

Fourth, I said LeBron was better than pierce because he was statistically better in every catagory and their playoff track record was virtually identical.Where as Shaqs postseason track record dominates KGs in every conceivable way.

[CelticG1]

In this decade KG has also played in 105 more games than Shaq has. So he has played more than a full NBA season longer than Shaq did. 105 more games than Shaq of ridiculous production...

Fair, but I take titles over games played. Do those numbers count playoffs?

No I was just looking at regular season. I'm sure that even with the playoff games it's still probably about 82 more games played anyway. We'll never agree on this and there is too much info for me to look up here at work to try and persuade you more (lol). You said before something about who's better Russell or Wilt and I didn't think that helped your  argument much. I think there are PLENTY of people out there that say Wilt was better than Russell and some that say he was the greatest ever..

It was in response to someone saying that titles shouldn't matter when evaluating players head to head, and I think the people who view Chamberlin as better is further in the minority than you think.

This would be a nice little debate to see. Looking up a quick search of it i found this article arguing Wilt is a better player than Russell (of course i can't agree). Here is the link: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/180402-why-wilt-chamberlain-is-better-than-bill-russell .. Not sure how legit the source/writer is but it's one perspective.

Another thing, based on your reasoning would you say that Pierce is a better player than Lebron in the past 5 years? they play the same position, have similar numbers but Pierce has the ring. I think even on this board most people will begrudgingly admit that Lebron is superior.

I do as well, because LeBRon has been more statistically dominant over Pierce than KG ever was over Shaq. Also, Lebron took his team to an NBA finals Pierce won one. Thats not as big a difference as Shaq making it to 5 NBA finals and winning 4 to KGs 1 and 1.

Lebron actually is not that much more statistically dominant over Pierce in the last 5 years. Actually it's probably similar to KG v. Shaq where KG had better stats in more categories than Shaq. Lebron basically has avg. a couple more points a game in most seasons (more in the last 2) has had pretty much the same rebounding numbers maybe 1 1.5 more and about 2 more assists. I guess you could say that his most recent numbers are inflated because he was the focal point of the offense (much like KG in Minn). I wouldn't call those numbers "dominant" over Pierce at all.

                                  Paul Pierce                                      LeBron
2004-2005         22ppg/7rebs/4 assts                      27/7/7
05-06                    27/7/5                                              31/7/7
06-07                   25/6/4                                               27/7/6
07-08                   20/5/5                                                 30/8/7
08-09                   21/6/4                                                 28/8/7

Most numbers rounded up. It looks worse for Paul when you factor in blocks and steals.

I guess I just don't see that as dominant. The same can be said about KG vs. Shaq stats.

'03 '04 KG  24ppg/14rpg/5apg/2spg/2bpg    Shaq 22/12/3/.5/3

04 05       22/14/6/2/1                        23/10/3/.5/2

05 06       22/13/4/2/1                        20/9/2/.5/2

06 07       22/13/4/1/1                        17/7/2/.5/1

07 08       19/9/3/1/2                         13/9/1/.5/1

I would definitely say that that is more dominant over Shaq, and more dominant than Lebron has been over pierce the past 5 years

First off, you're a round downer. LAME!

Second, Shaq did lead KG in some catagories during that stretch whereas Pierce did not lead LeBron in any.

Third, For much of the LeBron/Pierce stretch neither of them had greta players playing along side them where as Shaq did which lowered the demand on him and his numbers.

Fourth, I said LeBron was better than pierce because he was statistically better in every catagory and their playoff track record was virtually identical.Where as Shaqs postseason track record dominates KGs in every conceivable way.

Ok fine i'm done....for now.... I only round up if it is .5 or higher would you round up for everything? Except for shaqs .5 for steals because he basically was at .4 .5 and .6.... You made a lot of good arguments for Shaq though so TP for that.

[drza44]

First off, you're a round downer. LAME!

Second, Shaq did lead KG in some catagories during that stretch whereas Pierce did not lead LeBron in any.

Third, For much of the LeBron/Pierce stretch neither of them had greta players playing along side them where as Shaq did which lowered the demand on him and his numbers.

Fourth, I said LeBron was better than pierce because he was statistically better in every catagory and their playoff track record was virtually identical.Where as Shaqs postseason track record dominates KGs in every conceivable way.

OK, let's work with this a bit.  From 2000 - 2002, Shaq played in and won 3 Finals.  KG was outstanding those years, but I have already said that I have no problem with stipulating Shaq was better in those 3 years to move the discussion along.

Now, from the start of the 2002-03 season until 2009, Shaq has averaged 20 points, 10 boards, 2 assists, 2 blocks, a steal and 3 TOs per game (rounded to the nearest whole number).  He has won one championship.  He has one top-3 MVP finish, and has won no other major awards.  He has not led the league in any of the major traditional counting categories, nor has he led the league in any of the composite advanced stats that I know to check.

From the start of 2002-03 until 2009, KG has averaged 22 points, 12 boards, 5 assists, 2 blocks, a steal and 2 TOs per game (again, rounded to the nearest whole number).  He has won one championship.  He has three top-3 MVP finishes, including an MVP award.  He has also been named the Defensive Player of the year in a different season.  He has won the rebounding crown 4 times, has led the NBA in points scored in a season (2004), has led the league in PER twice, in win shares once, in wins produced at least four times, and in on-court/off-court +/- four times.

Summary: over that 7 year period, Shaq doesn't lead KG in any traditional stat, KG swamps him in the advanced stats, KG has won more accolades, and they have won the same number of rings.  Thus, by the same argument that you make for LeBron over Pierce the last five years, I argue that KG has been better than Shaq over the last seven years.

[KCattheStripe]

First off, you're a round downer. LAME!

Second, Shaq did lead KG in some catagories during that stretch whereas Pierce did not lead LeBron in any.

Third, For much of the LeBron/Pierce stretch neither of them had greta players playing along side them where as Shaq did which lowered the demand on him and his numbers.

Fourth, I said LeBron was better than pierce because he was statistically better in every catagory and their playoff track record was virtually identical.Where as Shaqs postseason track record dominates KGs in every conceivable way.

OK, let's work with this a bit.  From 2000 - 2002, Shaq played in and won 3 Finals.  KG was outstanding those years, but I have already said that I have no problem with stipulating Shaq was better in those 3 years to move the discussion along.

Now, from the start of the 2002-03 season until 2009, Shaq has averaged 20 points, 10 boards, 2 assists, 2 blocks, a steal and 3 TOs per game (rounded to the nearest whole number).  He has won one championship.  He has one top-3 MVP finish, and has won no other major awards.  He has not led the league in any of the major traditional counting categories, nor has he led the league in any of the composite advanced stats that I know to check.

From the start of 2002-03 until 2009, KG has averaged 22 points, 12 boards, 5 assists, 2 blocks, a steal and 2 TOs per game (again, rounded to the nearest whole number).  He has won one championship.  He has three top-3 MVP finishes, including an MVP award.  He has also been named the Defensive Player of the year in a different season.  He has won the rebounding crown 4 times, has led the NBA in points scored in a season (2004), has led the league in PER twice, in win shares once, in wins produced at least four times, and in on-court/off-court +/- four times.

Summary: over that 7 year period, Shaq doesn't lead KG in any traditional stat, KG swamps him in the advanced stats, KG has won more accolades, and they have won the same number of rings.  Thus, by the same argument that you make for LeBron over Pierce the last five years, I argue that KG has been better than Shaq over the last seven years.

Please reread:
2004- I will give you, an MVP season is an MVP season. But still, shaq's 22/11/ 2.5 blocks and  3 dimes is nothing to sneeze at. And as long as we're on the subject of Assts, I don't want a dominant low post scorer to have that many dimes, even if they are as talented a passer as Shaq is, I want them to score when they get the ball or to reset the offense. On the other hand, I do want my PF  like KG who prefer to play outside the post to be able to make precision passes anywhere on the court. I think KG had a better season, but I don't think he FAR outstripped Shaq.

2005/2006- KG Out performed him because he had to, this will become important later on. When a superstar has no one around him its incumbent upon them to put up better numbers. Shaq's numbers went down after 2004 because by then Kobe had arrived and then he went to play with DWade and so he got less touches. Remarkably, Shaq lead the NBA those years in FG % while still getting 20/10, which to me shows that he adapted to getting less touches by becoming absurdly efficient. Proof is that after 2003 Shaq went from averaging 18 shots a game to averaging 14/13/14 and yet still averaging 20 ppg. KG: 20/17/16. Also, Shaq's rebounding numbers took a hit because he played next to Karl Malone in 2004 Who averaged 9 boards a game and the Udonis Haslem 9/8 per game. Better rebounding side players than KG ever had. Shaq's efficiency in his last year in LA and the first two in Miami are something to be applauded.


Also, Field goal percentage isn't an important stat? I think its a huge stat when looking at how Shaqs shot attempts dropped as his wings got better. The fact that he remained a 20/10 force until 2007 is a testament to how well he played this entire decade.

[drza44]

First off, you're a round downer. LAME!

Second, Shaq did lead KG in some catagories during that stretch whereas Pierce did not lead LeBron in any.

Third, For much of the LeBron/Pierce stretch neither of them had greta players playing along side them where as Shaq did which lowered the demand on him and his numbers.

Fourth, I said LeBron was better than pierce because he was statistically better in every catagory and their playoff track record was virtually identical.Where as Shaqs postseason track record dominates KGs in every conceivable way.

OK, let's work with this a bit.  From 2000 - 2002, Shaq played in and won 3 Finals.  KG was outstanding those years, but I have already said that I have no problem with stipulating Shaq was better in those 3 years to move the discussion along.

Now, from the start of the 2002-03 season until 2009, Shaq has averaged 20 points, 10 boards, 2 assists, 2 blocks, a steal and 3 TOs per game (rounded to the nearest whole number).  He has won one championship.  He has one top-3 MVP finish, and has won no other major awards.  He has not led the league in any of the major traditional counting categories, nor has he led the league in any of the composite advanced stats that I know to check.

From the start of 2002-03 until 2009, KG has averaged 22 points, 12 boards, 5 assists, 2 blocks, a steal and 2 TOs per game (again, rounded to the nearest whole number).  He has won one championship.  He has three top-3 MVP finishes, including an MVP award.  He has also been named the Defensive Player of the year in a different season.  He has won the rebounding crown 4 times, has led the NBA in points scored in a season (2004), has led the league in PER twice, in win shares once, in wins produced at least four times, and in on-court/off-court +/- four times.

Summary: over that 7 year period, Shaq doesn't lead KG in any traditional stat, KG swamps him in the advanced stats, KG has won more accolades, and they have won the same number of rings.  Thus, by the same argument that you make for LeBron over Pierce the last five years, I argue that KG has been better than Shaq over the last seven years.

Please reread:
2004- I will give you, an MVP season is an MVP season. But still, shaq's 22/11/ 2.5 blocks and  3 dimes is nothing to sneeze at. And as long as we're on the subject of Assts, I don't want a dominant low post scorer to have that many dimes, even if they are as talented a passer as Shaq is, I want them to score when they get the ball or to reset the offense. On the other hand, I do want my PF  like KG who prefer to play outside the post to be able to make precision passes anywhere on the court. I think KG had a better season, but I don't think he FAR outstripped Shaq.

2005/2006- KG Out performed him because he had to, this will become important later on. When a superstar has no one around him its incumbent upon them to put up better numbers. Shaq's numbers went down after 2004 because by then Kobe had arrived and then he went to play with DWade and so he got less touches. Remarkably, Shaq lead the NBA those years in FG % while still getting 20/10, which to me shows that he adapted to getting less touches by becoming absurdly efficient. Proof is that after 2003 Shaq went from averaging 18 shots a game to averaging 14/13/14 and yet still averaging 20 ppg. KG: 20/17/16. Also, Shaq's rebounding numbers took a hit because he played next to Karl Malone in 2004 Who averaged 9 boards a game and the Udonis Haslem 9/8 per game. Better rebounding side players than KG ever had. Shaq's efficiency in his last year in LA and the first two in Miami are something to be applauded.


Also, Field goal percentage isn't an important stat? I think its a huge stat when looking at how Shaqs shot attempts dropped as his wings got better. The fact that he remained a 20/10 force until 2007 is a testament to how well he played this entire decade.

It is interesting that you excuse Shaq's lesser numbers because he had much better teammates than KG, but you refuse to consider how teammate caliber would effect the likelihood of winning titles.

At any rate, we have pretty much officially entered the spin cycle now.  When you are cutting and pasting whole passages that you wrote earlier in the same day, I think it's safe to say we've pretty much laid out the cases as we see them so I guess it's time to agree to disagree and move on.  TP for the debate.

[KCattheStripe]

First off, you're a round downer. LAME!

Second, Shaq did lead KG in some catagories during that stretch whereas Pierce did not lead LeBron in any.

Third, For much of the LeBron/Pierce stretch neither of them had greta players playing along side them where as Shaq did which lowered the demand on him and his numbers.

Fourth, I said LeBron was better than pierce because he was statistically better in every catagory and their playoff track record was virtually identical.Where as Shaqs postseason track record dominates KGs in every conceivable way.

OK, let's work with this a bit.  From 2000 - 2002, Shaq played in and won 3 Finals.  KG was outstanding those years, but I have already said that I have no problem with stipulating Shaq was better in those 3 years to move the discussion along.

Now, from the start of the 2002-03 season until 2009, Shaq has averaged 20 points, 10 boards, 2 assists, 2 blocks, a steal and 3 TOs per game (rounded to the nearest whole number).  He has won one championship.  He has one top-3 MVP finish, and has won no other major awards.  He has not led the league in any of the major traditional counting categories, nor has he led the league in any of the composite advanced stats that I know to check.

From the start of 2002-03 until 2009, KG has averaged 22 points, 12 boards, 5 assists, 2 blocks, a steal and 2 TOs per game (again, rounded to the nearest whole number).  He has won one championship.  He has three top-3 MVP finishes, including an MVP award.  He has also been named the Defensive Player of the year in a different season.  He has won the rebounding crown 4 times, has led the NBA in points scored in a season (2004), has led the league in PER twice, in win shares once, in wins produced at least four times, and in on-court/off-court +/- four times.

Summary: over that 7 year period, Shaq doesn't lead KG in any traditional stat, KG swamps him in the advanced stats, KG has won more accolades, and they have won the same number of rings.  Thus, by the same argument that you make for LeBron over Pierce the last five years, I argue that KG has been better than Shaq over the last seven years.

Please reread:
2004- I will give you, an MVP season is an MVP season. But still, shaq's 22/11/ 2.5 blocks and  3 dimes is nothing to sneeze at. And as long as we're on the subject of Assts, I don't want a dominant low post scorer to have that many dimes, even if they are as talented a passer as Shaq is, I want them to score when they get the ball or to reset the offense. On the other hand, I do want my PF  like KG who prefer to play outside the post to be able to make precision passes anywhere on the court. I think KG had a better season, but I don't think he FAR outstripped Shaq.

2005/2006- KG Out performed him because he had to, this will become important later on. When a superstar has no one around him its incumbent upon them to put up better numbers. Shaq's numbers went down after 2004 because by then Kobe had arrived and then he went to play with DWade and so he got less touches. Remarkably, Shaq lead the NBA those years in FG % while still getting 20/10, which to me shows that he adapted to getting less touches by becoming absurdly efficient. Proof is that after 2003 Shaq went from averaging 18 shots a game to averaging 14/13/14 and yet still averaging 20 ppg. KG: 20/17/16. Also, Shaq's rebounding numbers took a hit because he played next to Karl Malone in 2004 Who averaged 9 boards a game and the Udonis Haslem 9/8 per game. Better rebounding side players than KG ever had. Shaq's efficiency in his last year in LA and the first two in Miami are something to be applauded.


Also, Field goal percentage isn't an important stat? I think its a huge stat when looking at how Shaqs shot attempts dropped as his wings got better. The fact that he remained a 20/10 force until 2007 is a testament to how well he played this entire decade.

It is interesting that you excuse Shaq's lesser numbers because he had much better teammates than KG, but you refuse to consider how teammate caliber would effect the likelihood of winning titles.

At any rate, we have pretty much officially entered the spin cycle now.  When you are cutting and pasting whole passages that you wrote earlier in the same day, I think it's safe to say we've pretty much laid out the cases as we see them so I guess it's time to agree to disagree and move on.  TP for the debate.

Numbers are numbers , titles are titles.

TP back at.