Dwyer: 10 best NBA players of the decade

[Fafnir]

OK, I should have been more clear.

Kobe is easily the most skilled player.

I also think he's the best player, not 'easily', and also not strictly because he's the most skilled.

Better?

And 11.8 wins, literal Larry.  Fine.  That significance of someone's opaque statistical formula has convinced me that KG is better than Kobe over the past decade.  Well played.

*shrug* we're done

You're using subjective criteria and premptively dismiss my arguments. No need to go in circles, just different opinions.

[Fafnir]

Of course, I disagree strenuously.  I have accepted that KG won't be ranked with/ahead of Duncan or Shaq until he gets a bit more hardware, but I definitely put him solidly ahead of Kobe.

Why?  What did he do with a crappy team that Kobe didn't?  Won a MVP - sure - but Kobe got jobbed on more than one occassion.

Anything else?

I agree with the point in your first paragraph, that you should look at total package and not just count rings.  As far as the question I've quoted, it really depends on how in depth you want to go.  I'll start with the stats since that is in theory objective, and then we can go to the anecdotal arguments from there if this discussion continues.

Let's start with something you said in a previous post: "Define "production" formally a la Hollinger and come up with an actual list of your own and try to convince me if you want. "  The thing is, using any 1 stat like Hollinger does leads to errors because all stats have holes/problems and relying on any 1 is dangerous.  That's why I like to look at several with overlapping strengths/weaknesses, and if several tell the same story it gets more convincing.

Back to KG and Kobe...KG wins literally every advanced stat battle with Kobe that I can find.  I mean, all of them.  The two major schools of thought for advanced stats are to either come up with composite scores based off box score stats (i.e. individual production) or to look at how the team is impacted by one player's presence (i.e. individual impact).

Box score production: Over the last decade KG leads Kobe in PER (Hollinger), win shares (basketball-reference.com), wins produced (KG #1 overall in last decade, dberri.wordpress.com), wins above replacement player (KG #1 overall in 2000s, Kevin Pelton Basketball Prospectus), etc. (there are others, but you get the idea).  All are calculated differently, all emphasize different skill sets a bit differently than others, and PER is even criticized by over-emphasizing points scored which benefits Kobe...but KG still leads him for that stat as well.  I haven't seen a single box score stat where Kobe measures out ahead of KG for the decade.

Impact production: I am actually a bit more partial to these stats, because they are concerned with how much a player contributes to team benefit and not at all about what numbers he puts up as an individual.  Over the last decade KG measures out #1 among all players in adjusted +/-, and he has the best on-court/off-court +/- scores of any player since 82games started keeping track of it in 2002-03.

Bottom line, statistically, KG both produced more in the box scores and had a larger individual impact on his teams winning than Kobe did over the last decade.  And not even in a disputed way, as it's a clean sweep for every one that I can find.  I'm assuming that you'll want to take this beyond just stats, and if so I'm glad to respond to that as well, but statistically it's pretty much a KG blowout.

You break down the stats a lot better than I could, TP.

[nickagneta]

OK, so Kobe not playing winning a ring without a big man makes him drop lower on the list, but not Wade?

And KG having a crappy team but putting up good numbers makes him higher up?  Why not Dirk?  Or Sheed even?

MJ v Kobe - those two are the exact same player.  Not even relevant to the argument.  Other than you hating on Kobe for no good reason other than personal distaste.

Define "production" formally a la Hollinger and come up with an actual list of your own and try to convince me if you want.   Otherwise, I'll use my eyes.

Kobe is the best player of the past decade.

Okay I don't think you're going to give me a fair shake, don't stick straw men up there.

Players should be judged for themselves, not by their teams. Besides Dirk and Sheed have been on many very good teams. KG has been on three, one that went to the WCF and the two years with the C's.

As for Kobe = MJ, that's just patently ridiculous! Take a look here.

Kobe does almost everything worse than Jordan. He scores less, he assists less, he misses more, he turns it over more, he gets to the line less, he rebounds less, he gets fewer steals, he gets fewer blocks, and he even makes fewer of free throws.

The only thing Kobe does better is shoot three pointers and he takes slightly fewer shots.

And then you consider defense.....

While I agree that MJ is the better player, the per 36 numbers on these two outstanding players are pretty comparable. MJ might rebound more, assist more, steal more, shoot better, get to the line more and score more, on a per 36 minute basis....not all that much more.

I wouldn't say that the Kobe/Jordan comparison is patently ridiculous at all. I think you might be just a tad bit hyperbolic there Faf. MJ is definitely better, but Kobe is as comparabl;e a player on the wing to MJ as there ever has been.

[RAcker]

T-Mac is whack.  But he did finally win a playoff series last year...while on the injured list.  Oooh, burn!

[BrickJames]

I wouldn't say that the Kobe/Jordan comparison is patently ridiculous at all. I think you might be just a tad bit hyperbolic there Faf. MJ is definitely better, but Kobe is as comparabl;e a player on the wing to MJ as there ever has been.

Thank you, Nick.  I was going to write this as well but I just gave up (as Faf did).

FWIW Faf I feel the same way about your reaction to my arguments.  Right back at ya bud.

[Fafnir]

OK, so Kobe not playing winning a ring without a big man makes him drop lower on the list, but not Wade?

And KG having a crappy team but putting up good numbers makes him higher up?  Why not Dirk?  Or Sheed even?

MJ v Kobe - those two are the exact same player.  Not even relevant to the argument.  Other than you hating on Kobe for no good reason other than personal distaste.

Define "production" formally a la Hollinger and come up with an actual list of your own and try to convince me if you want.   Otherwise, I'll use my eyes.

Kobe is the best player of the past decade.

Okay I don't think you're going to give me a fair shake, don't stick straw men up there.

Players should be judged for themselves, not by their teams. Besides Dirk and Sheed have been on many very good teams. KG has been on three, one that went to the WCF and the two years with the C's.

As for Kobe = MJ, that's just patently ridiculous! Take a look here.

Kobe does almost everything worse than Jordan. He scores less, he assists less, he misses more, he turns it over more, he gets to the line less, he rebounds less, he gets fewer steals, he gets fewer blocks, and he even makes fewer of free throws.

The only thing Kobe does better is shoot three pointers and he takes slightly fewer shots.

And then you consider defense.....

While I agree that MJ is the better player, the per 36 numbers on these two outstanding players are pretty comparable. MJ might rebound more, assist more, steal more, shoot better, get to the line more and score more, on a per 36 minute basis....not all that much more.

I wouldn't say that the Kobe/Jordan comparison is patently ridiculous at all. I think you might be just a tad bit hyperbolic there Faf. MJ is definitely better, but Kobe is as comparabl;e a player on the wing to MJ as there ever has been.

The difference per 36 is pretty big Nick.

5 more points, scored more efficiently, .7 more FTs, .7 more rebounds, .7 more assists, 1 more steal, .3 more blocks.

Over the course of the season that is 410 more points, 57 more free throws/rebounds/assists, 82 more steals, and 24.6 more blocks.

All of that adds up to make MJ a clearly better player. They're both elite shooting guards, that isn't equality.

[drza44]

I wouldn't say that the Kobe/Jordan comparison is patently ridiculous at all. I think you might be just a tad bit hyperbolic there Faf. MJ is definitely better, but Kobe is as comparabl;e a player on the wing to MJ as there ever has been.

Thank you, Nick.  I was going to write this as well but I just gave up (as Faf did).

FWIW Faf I feel the same way about your reaction to my arguments.  Right back at ya bud.

Brick, did you give up on me as well, or still working on it?  From my end there's nothing personal at all, I just like debating this subject especially when I think I've got a pretty strong case.  But I've been kind of lurking waiting for you to respond to me, and if you've moved on I'll know I can get back to work...

[BrickJames]

I wouldn't say that the Kobe/Jordan comparison is patently ridiculous at all. I think you might be just a tad bit hyperbolic there Faf. MJ is definitely better, but Kobe is as comparabl;e a player on the wing to MJ as there ever has been.

Thank you, Nick.  I was going to write this as well but I just gave up (as Faf did).

FWIW Faf I feel the same way about your reaction to my arguments.  Right back at ya bud.

Brick, did you give up on me as well, or still working on it?  From my end there's nothing personal at all, I just like debating this subject especially when I think I've got a pretty strong case.  But I've been kind of lurking waiting for you to respond to me, and if you've moved on I'll know I can get back to work...

Get back to work, I hate stats, especially when they say I'm wrong 

[nickagneta]

OK, so Kobe not playing winning a ring without a big man makes him drop lower on the list, but not Wade?

And KG having a crappy team but putting up good numbers makes him higher up?  Why not Dirk?  Or Sheed even?

MJ v Kobe - those two are the exact same player.  Not even relevant to the argument.  Other than you hating on Kobe for no good reason other than personal distaste.

Define "production" formally a la Hollinger and come up with an actual list of your own and try to convince me if you want.   Otherwise, I'll use my eyes.

Kobe is the best player of the past decade.

Okay I don't think you're going to give me a fair shake, don't stick straw men up there.

Players should be judged for themselves, not by their teams. Besides Dirk and Sheed have been on many very good teams. KG has been on three, one that went to the WCF and the two years with the C's.

As for Kobe = MJ, that's just patently ridiculous! Take a look here.

Kobe does almost everything worse than Jordan. He scores less, he assists less, he misses more, he turns it over more, he gets to the line less, he rebounds less, he gets fewer steals, he gets fewer blocks, and he even makes fewer of free throws.

The only thing Kobe does better is shoot three pointers and he takes slightly fewer shots.

And then you consider defense.....

While I agree that MJ is the better player, the per 36 numbers on these two outstanding players are pretty comparable. MJ might rebound more, assist more, steal more, shoot better, get to the line more and score more, on a per 36 minute basis....not all that much more.

I wouldn't say that the Kobe/Jordan comparison is patently ridiculous at all. I think you might be just a tad bit hyperbolic there Faf. MJ is definitely better, but Kobe is as comparabl;e a player on the wing to MJ as there ever has been.

The difference per 36 is pretty big Nick.

5 more points, scored more efficiently, .7 more FTs, .7 more rebounds, .7 more assists, 1 more steal, .3 more blocks.

Over the course of the season that is 410 more points, 57 more free throws/rebounds/assists, 82 more steals, and 24.6 more blocks.

All of that adds up to make MJ a clearly better player. They're both elite shooting guards, that isn't equality.

I guess it is all perspective, my friend. I don't see that 0.7 more rebounds, assists, or free throws is all that big of a difference when you are comparing those stats to the best player that ever lived. I think the steals and the points is where the difference between them show up. 5 points per 36 is significant and so is the steal. it just shows that at defense and offense, MJ was better. But I don't think the difference is anywhere near where you claim it to be.

[fairweatherfan]

Kobe is Diet Jordan and always has been.  Part of it's natural and part of it's intentional.  It's sort of a backhanded compliment to say so but it still makes him an all-time great.

My Top 10 of the past decade:

1. Duncan
2. Shaq
3. Kobe
4. KG
5. LeBron
6. Kidd
7. Iverson
8. Pierce
9. Nowitzki
10. Nash

Wade is a strong 11th, but Nash edges him out due to 2 MVPs and having played all decade.

[drza44]

I guess it is all perspective, my friend. I don't see that 0.7 more rebounds, assists, or free throws is all that big of a difference when you are comparing those stats to the best player that ever lived. I think the steals and the points is where the difference between them show up. 5 points per 36 is significant and so is the steal. it just shows that at defense and offense, MJ was better. But I don't think the difference is anywhere near where you claim it to be.

While I agree that sometimes there is some hyperbole in the "Kobe couldn't sniff Jordan's jock!" camp, even with the numbers that you post that's a pretty big difference.  I mean think about it, what if you were told that all else being equal, player A is going to get you 5 more points on better shooting percentages while also being a better defensive player than player B too?  Without any names involved, my guess is that the vast majority would say that player A is a convincingly better player and not that it is in any way a competitive comparison.

[Fafnir]

I wouldn't say that the Kobe/Jordan comparison is patently ridiculous at all. I think you might be just a tad bit hyperbolic there Faf. MJ is definitely better, but Kobe is as comparabl;e a player on the wing to MJ as there ever has been.

Thank you, Nick.  I was going to write this as well but I just gave up (as Faf did).

FWIW Faf I feel the same way about your reaction to my arguments.  Right back at ya bud.

Brick, did you give up on me as well, or still working on it?  From my end there's nothing personal at all, I just like debating this subject especially when I think I've got a pretty strong case.  But I've been kind of lurking waiting for you to respond to me, and if you've moved on I'll know I can get back to work...

Get back to work, I hate stats, especially when they say I'm wrong 

Basically that's the disconnect that means there isn't much to talk about. I didn't mean anything personal about saying I'm done, I just didn't want to go in circles. TP Brick/Nick/Drza

[Fafnir]

I guess it is all perspective, my friend. I don't see that 0.7 more rebounds, assists, or free throws is all that big of a difference when you are comparing those stats to the best player that ever lived. I think the steals and the points is where the difference between them show up. 5 points per 36 is significant and so is the steal. it just shows that at defense and offense, MJ was better. But I don't think the difference is anywhere near where you claim it to be.

While I agree that sometimes there is some hyperbole in the "Kobe couldn't sniff Jordan's jock!" camp, even with the numbers that you post that's a pretty big difference.  I mean think about it, what if you were told that all else being equal, player A is going to get you 5 more points on better shooting percentages while also being a better defensive player than player B too?  Without any names involved, my guess is that the vast majority would say that player A is a convincingly better player and not that it is in any way a competitive comparison.

For me its the cumulative effect of it all. I don't think I ever said Kobe sucks. I just said its ridiculous to say he's Jordan's equal.

Kobe is what the second best SG, maybe the third at worst if you're a Kobe hater. Jordan is just the clear number one, and I don't think its all that close.

[Mr October]

Kobe is Diet Jordan and always has been.  Part of it's natural and part of it's intentional.  It's sort of a backhanded compliment to say so but it still makes him an all-time great.

My Top 10 of the past decade:

1. Duncan
2. Shaq
3. Kobe
4. KG
5. LeBron
6. Kidd
7. Iverson
8. Pierce
9. Nowitzki
10. Nash

Wade is a strong 11th, but Nash edges him out due to 2 MVPs and having played all decade.

Good list FWF, top to bottom.

T-Mac has awesome for about 2-3 years. Other than that he has been very forgettable, very injured - Pierce is/was better. Heck, T-Mac still can't get out of the first round!!! Overrated!!

Yeah and Shaq deserves to be right up there with Duncan.

On Kobe vs Jordan: Jordan was the best of all time. Kobe is 3rd or 4th best on his franchise (granted it is a killer list): Magic, Shaq, Kareem...

When you watch playoffs, or even finals games in general - Jordan was on a level to himself on offense, and second only to Pippen on defense. (Kobe can't touch MJ's consistency on defense.) Jordan could score in the flow of a game, and knew when to take over. Also he is 6-0 in the finals as a leader. Kobe as the leader of his team, is 1-1 in the finals. He was at his most lethal when Shaq drew all the attention. Yes Kobe is the closest we have seen to Jordan. But Jordan is on a level all his own.

[Quinn]

1. Shaq
2. Kobe
3. Duncan
4. KG
5. Kidd
6. James
7. Pierce
8. Nash
9. Nowitzki
10. Allen (My reason for Ray is because of what he's done, arguably the greatest pure shooter of all time.)