Lack of adjustment is why we lost.

[ScoobyDoo]

No, I am 100% correct. You are wrong in this case. I know that Ray Allen most likely will drain a big shot down the stretch to help you win. I know that he, RAY WALTER ALLEN, will help you win another title, not Tony Allen. I know he is an all star, I love the guy, and know he will continue to be a major force for us as we get through rounds one and two. He's one of my favorite celtics ever.

However, the biggest reason we lost is because we had no answer for Derek Rose. He dropped 36 on us, THIRTY-SIX! Rondo wasn't getting it done and we made no adjustment, we just kept letting Rose punch us in the head with out once raising our hands to block his punches by MAKING A DEFENSIVE ADJUSTMENT ON HIM.

Ray Allen is a bad defensive match up on Ben Gordon.
Rondo, at least Sunday, had now desire to stop Rose.
Ray Allen couldn't hit the ocean.

Put Rondo on the smaller quicker Gordon
Put Tony Allen on the bigger more physical Rose

Rose and Gordon scored 56 points between them or nearly "60 PERCENT OF THEIR POINTS".

You have to make a defensive adjustment when that's happening. You can't just keep doing the same things and expect a different result.

And by the way, I'm using caps to highlight things, not to yell.

I'm not saying you can Ray for the day, but you sub him a little more. Give Tony another 8-10 minutes on Rose.

And I'm not concerned about anything else Tony may or may not do other than stopping the freight train being shoved down my throat that was Derek Rose. That's all, just disrupt the guy.

I'd say, we did that, we probably wouldn've been up 10-15 mid way through the fourth. You cna bring Ray back in down the stretch and hope Rondo decided to play fundamental D on Rose rather than "make the play" D.

I do agree with you that you play with who got you there as a generality. But if, say, MCHale in the 80's was having a crp day, and Maxwell had it going....Sorry, I'm going with Maxwell.

Similalry, if Ray is having a bad day and Rose is having an NBA career day, sorry, I'm switching Rondo over to Gordon, telling Tony to deny Rose the ball and then kick the crap out of him when he does get it. I'm not syaing for the whole second half, but perhaps a little more than my normal sub in for Ray.

I have to try something differnet. I am not going to stand their and let someone punch me in the head for 48 minutes and not make an adjustment, at least try putting my hands up by trying something different to stop getting punched.

I'd be very suprised if we don't see some Tony Allen on Derek Rose tonight, especially if he's got it going like he did on Sunday. If Rondo decided to stay in front of him this game, the adjustment may not be necessary. Ditto for Ray, if he's got it going. No adjustment may be necessary.   
   

[angryguy77]

I'm curious. This team was down by nine at the half and then lost by two. There were no adjustments?

Dont you get it? We have to pile on Doc after this loss. It doesnt matter that his players didnt show up for the first half. Surley you as an intelligent individuale has to know that he is the reason KG went down, he is the reason they have no intensity on d anymore. He should have used his Jedi mind control to make them play harder and not act like showing up was enough. I think we at Celtics Blog should start a pool at the begining of each season as to the over/under of threads that are going to unjustly pin losses on doc. Winner would get a free oven mitt or something

If players are not playing well, then it's Doc's job to sit them. For whatever reason he did not do this, so I put a lot of blame on him.

Sit the starters? In the playoffs?

I agree with you, this theory doesnt make sense to me thats why there is sarcasm

[angryguy77]

No, I am 100% correct. You are wrong in this case. I know that Ray Allen most likely will drain a big shot down the stretch to help you win. I know that he, RAY WALTER ALLEN, will help you win another title, not Tony Allen. I know he is an all star, I love the guy, and know he will continue to be a major force for us as we get through rounds one and two. He's one of my favorite celtics ever.

However, the biggest reason we lost is because we had no answer for Derek Rose. He dropped 36 on us, THIRTY-SIX! Rondo wasn't getting it done and we made no adjustment, we just kept letting Rose punch us in the head with out once raising our hands to block his punches by MAKING A DEFENSIVE ADJUSTMENT ON HIM.

Ray Allen is a bad defensive match up on Ben Gordon.
Rondo, at least Sunday, had now desire to stop Rose.
Ray Allen couldn't hit the ocean.

Put Rondo on the smaller quicker Gordon
Put Tony Allen on the bigger more physical Rose

Rose and Gordon scored 56 points between them or nearly "60 PERCENT OF THEIR POINTS".

You have to make a defensive adjustment when that's happening. You can't just keep doing the same things and expect a different result.

And by the way, I'm using caps to highlight things, not to yell.

I'm not saying you can Ray for the day, but you sub him a little more. Give Tony another 8-10 minutes on Rose.

And I'm not concerned about anything else Tony may or may not do other than stopping the freight train being shoved down my throat that was Derek Rose. That's all, just disrupt the guy.

I'd say, we did that, we probably wouldn've been up 10-15 mid way through the fourth. You cna bring Ray back in down the stretch and hope Rondo decided to play fundamental D on Rose rather than "make the play" D.

I do agree with you that you play with who got you there as a generality. But if, say, MCHale in the 80's was having a crp day, and Maxwell had it going....Sorry, I'm going with Maxwell.

Similalry, if Ray is having a bad day and Rose is having an NBA career day, sorry, I'm switching Rondo over to Gordon, telling Tony to deny Rose the ball and then kick the crap out of him when he does get it. I'm not syaing for the whole second half, but perhaps a little more than my normal sub in for Ray.

I have to try something differnet. I am not going to stand their and let someone punch me in the head for 48 minutes and not make an adjustment, at least try putting my hands up by trying something different to stop getting punched.

I'd be very suprised if we don't see some Tony Allen on Derek Rose tonight, especially if he's got it going like he did on Sunday. If Rondo decided to stay in front of him this game, the adjustment may not be necessary. Ditto for Ray, if he's got it going. No adjustment may be necessary.   
   

How long do you leave ray out then? HOw many shots dows he get before he's pulled again? Shooters can get hot and pulling them does nothing to help them get it going.

[nickagneta]

No, I am 100% correct. You are wrong in this case. I know that Ray Allen most likely will drain a big shot down the stretch to help you win. I know that he, RAY WALTER ALLEN, will help you win another title, not Tony Allen. I know he is an all star, I love the guy, and know he will continue to be a major force for us as we get through rounds one and two. He's one of my favorite celtics ever.

However, the biggest reason we lost is because we had no answer for Derek Rose. He dropped 36 on us, THIRTY-SIX! Rondo wasn't getting it done and we made no adjustment, we just kept letting Rose punch us in the head with out once raising our hands to block his punches by MAKING A DEFENSIVE ADJUSTMENT ON HIM.

Ray Allen is a bad defensive match up on Ben Gordon.
Rondo, at least Sunday, had now desire to stop Rose.
Ray Allen couldn't hit the ocean.

Put Rondo on the smaller quicker Gordon
Put Tony Allen on the bigger more physical Rose

Rose and Gordon scored 56 points between them or nearly "60 PERCENT OF THEIR POINTS".

You have to make a defensive adjustment when that's happening. You can't just keep doing the same things and expect a different result.

And by the way, I'm using caps to highlight things, not to yell.

I'm not saying you can Ray for the day, but you sub him a little more. Give Tony another 8-10 minutes on Rose.

And I'm not concerned about anything else Tony may or may not do other than stopping the freight train being shoved down my throat that was Derek Rose. That's all, just disrupt the guy.

I'd say, we did that, we probably wouldn've been up 10-15 mid way through the fourth. You cna bring Ray back in down the stretch and hope Rondo decided to play fundamental D on Rose rather than "make the play" D.

I do agree with you that you play with who got you there as a generality. But if, say, MCHale in the 80's was having a crp day, and Maxwell had it going....Sorry, I'm going with Maxwell.

Similalry, if Ray is having a bad day and Rose is having an NBA career day, sorry, I'm switching Rondo over to Gordon, telling Tony to deny Rose the ball and then kick the crap out of him when he does get it. I'm not syaing for the whole second half, but perhaps a little more than my normal sub in for Ray.

I have to try something differnet. I am not going to stand their and let someone punch me in the head for 48 minutes and not make an adjustment, at least try putting my hands up by trying something different to stop getting punched.

I'd be very suprised if we don't see some Tony Allen on Derek Rose tonight, especially if he's got it going like he did on Sunday. If Rondo decided to stay in front of him this game, the adjustment may not be necessary. Ditto for Ray, if he's got it going. No adjustment may be necessary.   
   

How long do you leave ray out then? HOw many shots dows he get before he's pulled again? Shooters can get hot and pulling them does nothing to help them get it going.

TP for being so prophetic.

Tonight's adjustments were to make absolutely no adjustments, sub no one in in the second half and let the guys that got you there do their job. Just what does anyone think the score would have been if Doc "adjusted" and put Tony Allen out there because Ray had a bad half. Also, by not "adjusting" Rondo over to Gordon, Rondo was able to stop Rose and dominate him in this game.

Game to game, minute to minute adjustments will ALWAYS, ALWAYS lose more games than they will win. Consistency in using the same players and in using your players the same way and having confidence that they will do the job will always win you more games than you lose. ALWAYS.

[yoursweatersux]

Well there's something to be said for adjustments, but you just have to be careful with them. Sometimes you have to pick your poison.

Example of a good adjustment: playing Eddie House over Rondo during the Finals to spread the floor. That won us a couple of games.

Tonight, Rondo made the difference simply by playing the D that we all know he's capable of instead of half-assing it.

However, as well as Ray played offensively tonight, he was getting torched by Gordon in the first half. His lack of speed (probably just because he's getting old) really allowed Gordon to get a bunch of open looks and heat up. After Gordon had heated up, it didn't matter who was in his face, he was draining it.

Gordon is streaky though... I'd rather keep in a warm Ray Allen than have Tony Allen on Gordon just in case Gordon has an explosion. When Gordon's hot, he's gonna make the shot pretty much no matter what, and when he's not, he'll just brick it so you might as well have the better offensive player in.

[ScoobyDoo]

You never keep a guy like Ray out too long, you have to keep putting him in. But when he was struggling like he was on Sunday, you sub him more than normal. You'd still have him in down the stretch for the obvious reasons. I do find it odd that people seem to have a big issue with subbing someone out when they are really struggling regardless of who they are.

I did mention in my post that I didn't mean you sit Ray for the game, you just try something different for spurts and see if you get a different result when he is struggling that bad.. As someone else mentioned, Phil Jackson has always been a master at that. Nine rings, go figure, I guess you can sub out your stars if they are stinking up the joint after all and still win nine rings.

I alos mentioned it was a specific issue with game one and Ray's performance on that day that needed to be addressed. I also said I was fully confident Ray would come back for 20+ today. It wasn't an indictment of Ray's ability, it was addressing the facts fo the game on Sunday.

Nickagenta, you don't make adjustments if they are not necessary. Rondo was doing his **** job today so you didn't need to try Tony on Rose. No adjustment was necessary "today".

Yes, Doc stayed with Ray today and what I've watched of the game so far ( Ray's been about two steps behind Gordon on every shot.

Reason, Gordon's a point guard playing the off guard position. he's too fast for Ray. Meanwhile, Tony shut Gordon down in game one.

Bottom line is this. Between Gordon and Rose they have thus far toasted us for nearly 60 to 65% of the offensive output of the Chicago Bulls in games one and two.

I'd argue that we might want to address that issue with some defensive adjustments. I think if we did we might end up blowing out these guys by 20 every night.  

NO ONE else on this team is hurting us significantly on offense besides these two. One goes for almost forty, tonight the other for almost 50...

Final comments:

1. Tony Allen might come in handy on whichever of these guys is lighting us up for 50 on the night...

2. As someone else mentioned, you might want to play Rondo and Rondo on their backcourt, put Ray at small on Salmons and Paul at power when both Joachima nd Miller arent' in together.

3. Ray was great today, that's what he does and it was once again beutiful to see.

4. We might not have needed his heroics though, if his man wasn't pushing 50 on the other end. Rau is too slow to guard Gordon. It's like asking him to chase Iverson in his prime, all night. We might have been up 20 if we Edited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline. down Rose and Gordon.

5. We won today, as the series goes on, their legs will gets stronger, ours weaker.

Find a way to play Tony more on both Rose and Gordon, move Ray to small sometimes if necessary.

They have beat us in game one and pushed us today for only one reason. WE have not contained their backcourt. Yet we have players who can help us do that.

Play Tony more on these two guys, use Ray more at small if necessay for this series.

This won't be necessay in the next round. Other adjustments yes, but not backcourt adjustments like needed in this series.

We should be blwoing these guys out instead of being in a dog fight.  
 

[ScoobyDoo]

Yoursweater sux....I agree with you, you always want Ray in as much as possible. All I'm saying is that when someone is torchign you for 36 or for 43+, it seems logical to me to put in a guy who's a pretty good, and sticky defender. Call him a "cooler" if you want. That's what Michael Cooper used to do. He'd come in and get up into the "hot player". So send Tony in for 3-5 minutes to stick to Gordon like white on rice. Move Ray to small, or get him some rest. Then bring Ray back in once Gordon has been neutralized.

The reason why Ray cant' guard Gordon is because Gordon is really a point guard with point guard speed. That's like asking Big Baby to guard Iguodala.

We have to have ary on him for a certain amount just becasue that's the match up, but we certainly should be using Tony on these two kids ( Gordon and Rose ) when they start heating up.

personally, I think Rondo should handle Rose no problem as long as he commits to playing fundamental, hard nosed D. Ray cannot handle Gordon and it's gonna wear him more as the sereis goes on.

WE contine these two kids, we start blowing these guys out. No one else is hurting us big time.   

[yoursweatersux]

I did mention in my post that I didn't mean you sit Ray for the game, you just try something different for spurts and see if you get a different result when he is struggling that bad.. As someone else mentioned, Phil Jackson has always been a master at that. Nine rings, go figure, I guess you can sub out your stars if they are stinking up the joint after all and still win nine rings.


 

First of all, Phil Jackson won all of his rings with MICHAEL JORDAN and SHAQ+KOBE. You've gotta be kidding me if you want to chalk it up to his adjustments.

Secondly, don't you remember Doc coaching circles around Jackson during the finals? I even specifically remember Jeff Van Gundy saying, "If I'm Phil Jackson, enough with the experimenting. Get Walton out of there, now."

Straight out of JVG's mouth, that sentence pretty much says it all.

[yoursweatersux]

That said, I would never take Rondo off Rose... Rondo is more than capable of defending him, he just has to want to do it.

But I'll agree... Gordon is a little too fast for Ray. Either Ray needs aggressive help defense backing him up (like what we provided in the 4th) or we need Tony on him. Personally, I'd say let's keep Ray out there, but just play really aggressive help defense when it comes to Gordon.

[ToppersBsktball10]

and rose lite it up

[ScoobyDoo]

Well, I didn't say Jackson won titels becasue of his adjustments. I said he had nine titles and he was also a very good coach at specific adjustments when someon was lighting him up.

It's a given, that everyone knows he won titles because of Jordan, Pippen, Shaq and Kobe. My point was that you can make these adjustments and still win and doing it does not mean you are going away form who got you there. You simply bring in someone who might be able to slow the freight train down a little.

As for Rondo, I agree 100% that he is more than capable of handling Rose "when he dicides to". On Sunday he wasn't doing it. I would've put Tony on Rise and Rondo on Gordon. I would've have just "tried it". I would have tried it rather than. Today the adjustment wasn't necessary, Rondo decided to pay defense.

The adjustment today was giving Tony some more spot minutes on Gordon to slow him down.

Again, that while Ray's heroics were wonderful, they might not have been necessary had Tony come in and iced Gordon, smacked him around a little.

Tony basically eliminated Gordon when he played him on Sunday.

Why not try a little more Tony on Gordon today when he's toasting you for nearly 50?

I still say we shut these two kids down , we start blowing these gusy out by 15-20, they are basically the entire offense. Well, they are currently about 65 % of it.   

I'm not saying change everything you've done. Make some small adjustments, move Ray to small for 5-8 minutes, and put TA on Gordon today.

[nickagneta]

You never keep a guy like Ray out too long, you have to keep putting him in. But when he was struggling like he was on Sunday, you sub him more than normal. You'd still have him in down the stretch for the obvious reasons. I do find it odd that people seem to have a big issue with subbing someone out when they are really struggling regardless of who they are.

Ray struggled as much in the first half yesterday as he did in the game the other night. If Doc went adjusting Ray in the second half, 26 points that we needed(and we needed every last one of them) may not have happened. Ray needs rhythm and Ray needs time to get that rhythm going. That time might just have been messed up with if he sat for any amount of time more than he did on on Saturday or in yesterday's game. And sorry, when the game counts the most, you don't cut your stars playing time due to performance. Ever.

I did mention in my post that I didn't mean you sit Ray for the game, you just try something different for spurts and see if you get a different result when he is struggling that bad.. As someone else mentioned, Phil Jackson has always been a master at that. Nine rings, go figure, I guess you can sub out your stars if they are stinking up the joint after all and still win nine rings.

Really? Please, let me know all those specific instances when Phil sat MJ, Kobe and Shaq in playoff games because they were stinking up the joint. Heck, if Phil subbed out MJ when he had the flu and was too sick to play MJ would have slugged him and gone to management to have gotten Phil suspended for the game. Phil won 9 rings because he played Kobe and Shaq and MJ whenever they wanted, not because he subbed them out whenever they had a bad half.

Nickagenta, you don't make adjustments if they are not necessary. Rondo was doing his **** job today so you didn't need to try Tony on Rose. No adjustment was necessary "today".

Was Ray doing his job in the first half? 4 points scored while giving up 17 says "no" to me. According to your logic Tony Allen should have played significant minutes in the second half. I'm wondering, has Tony ever scored 26 points in a game, never mind a half, before? Because if he was subbed in for Ray due to poor performance, he would have needed to score that much.

And don't tell me he would have slowed Gordon down. any, many, many shots of Gordon's were taken with Ray and/or someone else draped all over him. He's hitting those shots regardless of who was guarding him. It's Gordan's history to do just that.

Reason, Gordon's a point guard playing the off guard position. he's too fast for Ray. Meanwhile, Tony shut Gordon down in game one.

 

Ben Gordan was in the game at the same time as Tony Allen for a whole 6 minutes. During those six minutes Tony guarded Gordon only some of the time as he and Eddie and Marbury were switching up between Hinrich, Rose and Gordon pretty regularly depending on how quick Chicago pushed the ball. Saying that Tony shut down Gordan in that game is a stretch of immense proportions.



Listen, I'm not trying to pick on you but some of what you are saying is pretty out there. Example? How does the Bulls legs get stronger and the Celtics legs weaker the longer the series goes? Perk, Baby, and Rondo are pretty darn young guys and Pierce and Ray might be two of the most finely tuned athletes at their age in the NBA. It makes no sense.

And it makes no sense to make major adjustments to a team just because a couple of guys got hot or a couple of guys are cold. You play the entire regular season tuning up your game and getting used to playing a certain way and when the games count the most in the playoffs, just because something isn't going great, you expect to change away from everything this club has been geared to do during the regular season? It makes zero sense.

You want Rose and Gordon to slow down, have Ray and Rondo play better defense. It really is that simple. Rondo played better defense and look what happened to Rose. He disappeared. If Ray starts out faster on his offensive game and puts better pressure on Gordan to start the game, I doubt Gordan is allowed to get into those unstoppable grooves that he can get into. Ray needs to play better. No adjustments away from the norm are necessary. Just better play.

[ScoobyDoo]

Well, I'm really tired of this discussion and I'm sure you guys are too. I'll just leave it at this:

1. Bulls play three guys in the backcourt > Rose, Gordon and Heinrich
2. Those three guys have accounted for approximately 55% of the Bulls offense in games one and two ( with about 53% of it coming from Rose and Gordon
3. This suggests that we might have some defensive problems trying to guard Chicago's backcourt.
4. No one else on the Bulls is hurting us much at all. So we stop these two guys on the same night, we blow this team out.
5. Tony Allen is a decent and very sticky backcourt defender, I would mix him in with Rondo Allen and House, certainly more than he's getting right now. and i would use him more on whichever of the two is going off at the time.

We should be blowing these guys out by 15-20 every game. We're not because one of these two guys is having career nights against our back court defense.

To answer your more specific questions:

1. We just disagree re subbing out stars when they stinking up the joint. When i say sub them out, I'm not talking about sending them to the showers. You're taking everything I say to the extreme. I say sub them out, mix in Tony, I'm talking 3-5 minutes, 5-8 minutes stints. Give Ray a little rest, let Tony get physical with the guy who's hot. I'm not calling for Ray allen's retirement for ****s.

2. I can't give you all the specifics. Jackson will bring in his bruiser if a bruiser form anothe team is smacking his guys around. Riley used to do the same. Red used to do the same. Cooper wa s specialist. Pop used Bown on the guy who's getting off. It's pretty basic. If Maxiell is throwing our guys around, you should sick Powe of Baby on him, not Mikki Moore. These are the things I'm talking about.

3. I understand MJ,. Pip, Shaq and Kobe played most of the time. As with Ray they should. Again, I'm not saying these guys should have all retired after bad games or been sent to the showers after the first quarter because they sucked that day

ALL I AM SAYING IS ON THE DAYS THEY DON'T HAVE IT OR ON THE DAYS THEY HAVE MATCH UPS THAT ARE REALLY TOUGH FOR THEM...give them a LITTLE MORE HELP THAN YOU NORMALLY WOULD. As a coach you fill in their weak spots with a little more help than you normally would when they are struggling.

In this case, Ray cannot guard Gordon, he was not draped all over Gordon, he was contatnly a step or two BEHIND Gordon, which is why Gordon was getting off. Re-watch the game and see how mnay times Ray is lunging at Gordon after the shot was already gone. RAY ALLEN IS NOT FAST ENOUGH TO CHASE GORDON ALL OVER THE COURT. IT'S LIKE ASKING HIM CHASE IVERSON IN HIS PRIME. IT'S A TERRIBLE DEFENSIVE MATCH UP. ( I'm not yelling at you here, just capping to make a point ).

Now, we have to live with it for a good chunk of the time. But you can limit the damage being done by that terrible match up by giving Ray a little more help.

Put Tony on Gordon, move Ray to small on Salmons...Salmons is a good match up for Ray defensively.

4. Ray's heroics were nice, the 26 and all. However, if Gordon wasn't going for 50 on the other end, we might not have needed all those points.

5. Ray is older, the longer he chases Gordon around for 40 a night, the more worn he's going to get. Meanwhile, Gordon will still be fresh. Ray is finely tuned, he's alos 34, those are facts. Give him a little more defensive help and another 5-7 minutes rest each game. He'll be strong when we need him down the stretch as this series goes on and also in the next round. We need to help Pierce, Garnett and Ray with their minutes if we expect them to continue to perform the way we'd like.

6. I agree with you, Ray and Rondo need to play better defense. Rondo did on Rose last night. Therefor, no defensive adjustment was needed to help him. Ray was not playing good D or he wasn't playing "good enough" D. Help him with Tony.