You're Next Ray

[mr. dee]

The difference between KG and Ray:

- KG entirely changed the culture of the team
- KG kept loyal and committed to the team even when his knees are already crumbling
- KG doesn't mind passing the torch and deferring to the younger players

As for "he only stayed for 6 years" argument, here are some retired numbers with 7 years or less

Dennis Johnson - 7 years
Cedric Maxwell - 7 years
Reggie Lewis - 6 years and no title
Ed Macauley - 6 years and no title

[Moranis]

Pass on Ray Allen getting his jersey retired. KG’s jersey, I was already iffy but he was the heart and soul of the team so fine, I could see it happening. He changed the way the C’s were viewed in the modern era. That’s gotta count for something I suppose.

What did Ray Allen do? And is he more deserving than say, Rondo (who I also don’t think should have his jersey retired)?

Ray Allen changed the Celtics culture and brought the team their first title in over 20 years.

Ray Allen was actually notorious for not being connected to the rest of the Celtics. Multiple players have commented how the whole team would show up for each other’s charity events and ray was the only player that wouldn’t do it.

Off the court, perhaps, but on the court Allen gets no where near the credit he deserves.  He changed the entire offense with his shooting.  He had the most remarkable shooting run I've ever seen in the Finals in 08 (52.4% on 7 attempts).  He was absolutely Boston's best player in the Finals and they don't win that title without him.  KG rejected overtures from Boston for a very long time until Ray Allen was on the team.  Without Allen, and what he represented, Boston doesn't land KG.  Boston went from basically a 50 win team and a ECF appearance to a game over .500 and getting beaten in the 1st round by a team led by Carmelo Anthony (in which JR Smith or Raymond Felton was the 2nd best player), the season that Ray was not here and KG and PP were.  His impact on the scoreboard was never appreciated (he had the best on/off per 100 possessions in both 09 and 10, yes even better than KG). 

Even while he was here, the fanbase never respected Allen, but when he left for Miami it was like he was a role player his entire tenure.  His place in Celtics history has been badly misremembered by the fanbase.  Without him, there is no title.  The team needed his offensive game to score enough points to beat the good teams.  They don't do that without him.  They don't even land KG without him.  Ray Allen made the Celtics desirable for a guy like KG to waive his no trade clause.  Ray Allen set a tone with his professionalism.  Ray Allen made Boston a good enough offensive team that they could actually win a title. 

That isn't to say KG wasn't important, he absolutely was.  Boston doesn't win a title without him either.  And as I've pretty consistently said, Boston stopped being a true contender when KG stopped being a top 5 player and his injury really accelerated his decline and Boston's true window of contention. 

I don't think either KG or Ray deserved to have their number retired.  That should be the highest honor a franchise can give a player, and I don't think KG or Ray played long enough (or with enough success) to have their number retired.  Pierce is the only guy who should be up there since basically Bird/McHale/Parish (I can understand Lewis, though I wouldn't have retired his number either).  Boston quite simply has retired too many numbers which cheapens it for the players truly deserving.

Do not try and equate changing the offence with changing the culture.

Does KG come to Boston without Ray Allen on the team?

[gouki88]

Pass on Ray Allen getting his jersey retired. KG’s jersey, I was already iffy but he was the heart and soul of the team so fine, I could see it happening. He changed the way the C’s were viewed in the modern era. That’s gotta count for something I suppose.

What did Ray Allen do? And is he more deserving than say, Rondo (who I also don’t think should have his jersey retired)?

Ray Allen changed the Celtics culture and brought the team their first title in over 20 years.

Ray Allen was actually notorious for not being connected to the rest of the Celtics. Multiple players have commented how the whole team would show up for each other’s charity events and ray was the only player that wouldn’t do it.

Off the court, perhaps, but on the court Allen gets no where near the credit he deserves.  He changed the entire offense with his shooting.  He had the most remarkable shooting run I've ever seen in the Finals in 08 (52.4% on 7 attempts).  He was absolutely Boston's best player in the Finals and they don't win that title without him.  KG rejected overtures from Boston for a very long time until Ray Allen was on the team.  Without Allen, and what he represented, Boston doesn't land KG.  Boston went from basically a 50 win team and a ECF appearance to a game over .500 and getting beaten in the 1st round by a team led by Carmelo Anthony (in which JR Smith or Raymond Felton was the 2nd best player), the season that Ray was not here and KG and PP were.  His impact on the scoreboard was never appreciated (he had the best on/off per 100 possessions in both 09 and 10, yes even better than KG). 

Even while he was here, the fanbase never respected Allen, but when he left for Miami it was like he was a role player his entire tenure.  His place in Celtics history has been badly misremembered by the fanbase.  Without him, there is no title.  The team needed his offensive game to score enough points to beat the good teams.  They don't do that without him.  They don't even land KG without him.  Ray Allen made the Celtics desirable for a guy like KG to waive his no trade clause.  Ray Allen set a tone with his professionalism.  Ray Allen made Boston a good enough offensive team that they could actually win a title. 

That isn't to say KG wasn't important, he absolutely was.  Boston doesn't win a title without him either.  And as I've pretty consistently said, Boston stopped being a true contender when KG stopped being a top 5 player and his injury really accelerated his decline and Boston's true window of contention. 

I don't think either KG or Ray deserved to have their number retired.  That should be the highest honor a franchise can give a player, and I don't think KG or Ray played long enough (or with enough success) to have their number retired.  Pierce is the only guy who should be up there since basically Bird/McHale/Parish (I can understand Lewis, though I wouldn't have retired his number either).  Boston quite simply has retired too many numbers which cheapens it for the players truly deserving.

Do not try and equate changing the offence with changing the culture.

Does KG come to Boston without Ray Allen on the team?

Does that have anything to do with the impact KG had?

[Roy H.]

Pass on Ray Allen getting his jersey retired. KG’s jersey, I was already iffy but he was the heart and soul of the team so fine, I could see it happening. He changed the way the C’s were viewed in the modern era. That’s gotta count for something I suppose.

What did Ray Allen do? And is he more deserving than say, Rondo (who I also don’t think should have his jersey retired)?

Ray Allen changed the Celtics culture and brought the team their first title in over 20 years.

Ray Allen was actually notorious for not being connected to the rest of the Celtics. Multiple players have commented how the whole team would show up for each other’s charity events and ray was the only player that wouldn’t do it.

Off the court, perhaps, but on the court Allen gets no where near the credit he deserves.  He changed the entire offense with his shooting.  He had the most remarkable shooting run I've ever seen in the Finals in 08 (52.4% on 7 attempts).  He was absolutely Boston's best player in the Finals and they don't win that title without him.  KG rejected overtures from Boston for a very long time until Ray Allen was on the team.  Without Allen, and what he represented, Boston doesn't land KG.  Boston went from basically a 50 win team and a ECF appearance to a game over .500 and getting beaten in the 1st round by a team led by Carmelo Anthony (in which JR Smith or Raymond Felton was the 2nd best player), the season that Ray was not here and KG and PP were.  His impact on the scoreboard was never appreciated (he had the best on/off per 100 possessions in both 09 and 10, yes even better than KG). 

Even while he was here, the fanbase never respected Allen, but when he left for Miami it was like he was a role player his entire tenure.  His place in Celtics history has been badly misremembered by the fanbase.  Without him, there is no title.  The team needed his offensive game to score enough points to beat the good teams.  They don't do that without him.  They don't even land KG without him.  Ray Allen made the Celtics desirable for a guy like KG to waive his no trade clause.  Ray Allen set a tone with his professionalism.  Ray Allen made Boston a good enough offensive team that they could actually win a title. 

That isn't to say KG wasn't important, he absolutely was.  Boston doesn't win a title without him either.  And as I've pretty consistently said, Boston stopped being a true contender when KG stopped being a top 5 player and his injury really accelerated his decline and Boston's true window of contention. 

I don't think either KG or Ray deserved to have their number retired.  That should be the highest honor a franchise can give a player, and I don't think KG or Ray played long enough (or with enough success) to have their number retired.  Pierce is the only guy who should be up there since basically Bird/McHale/Parish (I can understand Lewis, though I wouldn't have retired his number either).  Boston quite simply has retired too many numbers which cheapens it for the players truly deserving.

Do not try and equate changing the offence with changing the culture.

Does KG come to Boston without Ray Allen on the team?

I don’t think it needed to be Ray specifically, but really any all-star caliber player.  But, Ray happened to be that guy, and there’s no doubt that he played well here.

[jambr380]

Pass on Ray Allen getting his jersey retired. KG’s jersey, I was already iffy but he was the heart and soul of the team so fine, I could see it happening. He changed the way the C’s were viewed in the modern era. That’s gotta count for something I suppose.

What did Ray Allen do? And is he more deserving than say, Rondo (who I also don’t think should have his jersey retired)?

Ray Allen changed the Celtics culture and brought the team their first title in over 20 years.

Ray Allen was actually notorious for not being connected to the rest of the Celtics. Multiple players have commented how the whole team would show up for each other’s charity events and ray was the only player that wouldn’t do it.

Off the court, perhaps, but on the court Allen gets no where near the credit he deserves.  He changed the entire offense with his shooting.  He had the most remarkable shooting run I've ever seen in the Finals in 08 (52.4% on 7 attempts).  He was absolutely Boston's best player in the Finals and they don't win that title without him.  KG rejected overtures from Boston for a very long time until Ray Allen was on the team.  Without Allen, and what he represented, Boston doesn't land KG.  Boston went from basically a 50 win team and a ECF appearance to a game over .500 and getting beaten in the 1st round by a team led by Carmelo Anthony (in which JR Smith or Raymond Felton was the 2nd best player), the season that Ray was not here and KG and PP were.  His impact on the scoreboard was never appreciated (he had the best on/off per 100 possessions in both 09 and 10, yes even better than KG). 

Even while he was here, the fanbase never respected Allen, but when he left for Miami it was like he was a role player his entire tenure.  His place in Celtics history has been badly misremembered by the fanbase.  Without him, there is no title.  The team needed his offensive game to score enough points to beat the good teams.  They don't do that without him.  They don't even land KG without him.  Ray Allen made the Celtics desirable for a guy like KG to waive his no trade clause.  Ray Allen set a tone with his professionalism.  Ray Allen made Boston a good enough offensive team that they could actually win a title. 

That isn't to say KG wasn't important, he absolutely was.  Boston doesn't win a title without him either.  And as I've pretty consistently said, Boston stopped being a true contender when KG stopped being a top 5 player and his injury really accelerated his decline and Boston's true window of contention. 

I don't think either KG or Ray deserved to have their number retired.  That should be the highest honor a franchise can give a player, and I don't think KG or Ray played long enough (or with enough success) to have their number retired.  Pierce is the only guy who should be up there since basically Bird/McHale/Parish (I can understand Lewis, though I wouldn't have retired his number either).  Boston quite simply has retired too many numbers which cheapens it for the players truly deserving.

Do not try and equate changing the offence with changing the culture.

Does KG come to Boston without Ray Allen on the team?

Does that have anything to do with the impact KG had?

And it's not the greatest argument either. What if Tatum had said he wouldn't sign his extension unless we signed [his friend] Javonte Green? Does that mean we should retire Green's number, too?

As Roy said, it just had to be an All-Star level player, not Ray specifically. KG wanted to know that the Cs were going all-in and they proved it with the trade of Ray. I liked Ray when he was here, hated him when he left, and am now pretty indifferent about him. I think a lot of fans probably feel similarly and that's not the greatest testament a fan base can have for a player.

[celticsclay]

Pass on Ray Allen getting his jersey retired. KG’s jersey, I was already iffy but he was the heart and soul of the team so fine, I could see it happening. He changed the way the C’s were viewed in the modern era. That’s gotta count for something I suppose.

What did Ray Allen do? And is he more deserving than say, Rondo (who I also don’t think should have his jersey retired)?

Ray Allen changed the Celtics culture and brought the team their first title in over 20 years.

Ray Allen was actually notorious for not being connected to the rest of the Celtics. Multiple players have commented how the whole team would show up for each other’s charity events and ray was the only player that wouldn’t do it.

Off the court, perhaps, but on the court Allen gets no where near the credit he deserves.  He changed the entire offense with his shooting.  He had the most remarkable shooting run I've ever seen in the Finals in 08 (52.4% on 7 attempts).  He was absolutely Boston's best player in the Finals and they don't win that title without him.  KG rejected overtures from Boston for a very long time until Ray Allen was on the team.  Without Allen, and what he represented, Boston doesn't land KG.  Boston went from basically a 50 win team and a ECF appearance to a game over .500 and getting beaten in the 1st round by a team led by Carmelo Anthony (in which JR Smith or Raymond Felton was the 2nd best player), the season that Ray was not here and KG and PP were.  His impact on the scoreboard was never appreciated (he had the best on/off per 100 possessions in both 09 and 10, yes even better than KG). 

Even while he was here, the fanbase never respected Allen, but when he left for Miami it was like he was a role player his entire tenure.  His place in Celtics history has been badly misremembered by the fanbase.  Without him, there is no title.  The team needed his offensive game to score enough points to beat the good teams.  They don't do that without him.  They don't even land KG without him.  Ray Allen made the Celtics desirable for a guy like KG to waive his no trade clause.  Ray Allen set a tone with his professionalism.  Ray Allen made Boston a good enough offensive team that they could actually win a title. 

That isn't to say KG wasn't important, he absolutely was.  Boston doesn't win a title without him either.  And as I've pretty consistently said, Boston stopped being a true contender when KG stopped being a top 5 player and his injury really accelerated his decline and Boston's true window of contention. 

I don't think either KG or Ray deserved to have their number retired.  That should be the highest honor a franchise can give a player, and I don't think KG or Ray played long enough (or with enough success) to have their number retired.  Pierce is the only guy who should be up there since basically Bird/McHale/Parish (I can understand Lewis, though I wouldn't have retired his number either).  Boston quite simply has retired too many numbers which cheapens it for the players truly deserving.

Do not try and equate changing the offence with changing the culture.

Does KG come to Boston without Ray Allen on the team?

Can you just Admit your comment about ray allen changing the Boston culture was dumb? (I won’t hold my breath). Kg, rondo, pierce, Davis and others are all still friends to this day, still talk about their bone because of the culture change and the off court stuff they did as a team. Ray was not part of it. This has been documented for over a decade. Your other points could be very valid and he was probably undervalued by some fans, but the culture comment was flat out ridiculous.

[Moranis]

Pass on Ray Allen getting his jersey retired. KG’s jersey, I was already iffy but he was the heart and soul of the team so fine, I could see it happening. He changed the way the C’s were viewed in the modern era. That’s gotta count for something I suppose.

What did Ray Allen do? And is he more deserving than say, Rondo (who I also don’t think should have his jersey retired)?

Ray Allen changed the Celtics culture and brought the team their first title in over 20 years.

Ray Allen was actually notorious for not being connected to the rest of the Celtics. Multiple players have commented how the whole team would show up for each other’s charity events and ray was the only player that wouldn’t do it.

Off the court, perhaps, but on the court Allen gets no where near the credit he deserves.  He changed the entire offense with his shooting.  He had the most remarkable shooting run I've ever seen in the Finals in 08 (52.4% on 7 attempts).  He was absolutely Boston's best player in the Finals and they don't win that title without him.  KG rejected overtures from Boston for a very long time until Ray Allen was on the team.  Without Allen, and what he represented, Boston doesn't land KG.  Boston went from basically a 50 win team and a ECF appearance to a game over .500 and getting beaten in the 1st round by a team led by Carmelo Anthony (in which JR Smith or Raymond Felton was the 2nd best player), the season that Ray was not here and KG and PP were.  His impact on the scoreboard was never appreciated (he had the best on/off per 100 possessions in both 09 and 10, yes even better than KG). 

Even while he was here, the fanbase never respected Allen, but when he left for Miami it was like he was a role player his entire tenure.  His place in Celtics history has been badly misremembered by the fanbase.  Without him, there is no title.  The team needed his offensive game to score enough points to beat the good teams.  They don't do that without him.  They don't even land KG without him.  Ray Allen made the Celtics desirable for a guy like KG to waive his no trade clause.  Ray Allen set a tone with his professionalism.  Ray Allen made Boston a good enough offensive team that they could actually win a title. 

That isn't to say KG wasn't important, he absolutely was.  Boston doesn't win a title without him either.  And as I've pretty consistently said, Boston stopped being a true contender when KG stopped being a top 5 player and his injury really accelerated his decline and Boston's true window of contention. 

I don't think either KG or Ray deserved to have their number retired.  That should be the highest honor a franchise can give a player, and I don't think KG or Ray played long enough (or with enough success) to have their number retired.  Pierce is the only guy who should be up there since basically Bird/McHale/Parish (I can understand Lewis, though I wouldn't have retired his number either).  Boston quite simply has retired too many numbers which cheapens it for the players truly deserving.

Do not try and equate changing the offence with changing the culture.

Does KG come to Boston without Ray Allen on the team?

Does that have anything to do with the impact KG had?

No and I never said it did.  Me claiming that Ray changed the culture and was vital to the championship, doesn't mean KG didn't also do those things.  They arrived during the same season.  The team doesn't win the title without either.  They are not mutually exclusive statements.  I do believe KG gets a disproportionate amount of the credit, but that doesn't mean he doesn't deserve any credit, he absolutely does.  And I do think Ray was nearly important to the offense as KG was to the defense of the team.  The team was significantly better when Ray Allen played as opposed to when he was on the bench and imo he pretty clearly played the best of any Celtic during the 08 Finals.  The team also got significantly worse when he left.

[Moranis]

Pass on Ray Allen getting his jersey retired. KG’s jersey, I was already iffy but he was the heart and soul of the team so fine, I could see it happening. He changed the way the C’s were viewed in the modern era. That’s gotta count for something I suppose.

What did Ray Allen do? And is he more deserving than say, Rondo (who I also don’t think should have his jersey retired)?

Ray Allen changed the Celtics culture and brought the team their first title in over 20 years.

Ray Allen was actually notorious for not being connected to the rest of the Celtics. Multiple players have commented how the whole team would show up for each other’s charity events and ray was the only player that wouldn’t do it.

Off the court, perhaps, but on the court Allen gets no where near the credit he deserves.  He changed the entire offense with his shooting.  He had the most remarkable shooting run I've ever seen in the Finals in 08 (52.4% on 7 attempts).  He was absolutely Boston's best player in the Finals and they don't win that title without him.  KG rejected overtures from Boston for a very long time until Ray Allen was on the team.  Without Allen, and what he represented, Boston doesn't land KG.  Boston went from basically a 50 win team and a ECF appearance to a game over .500 and getting beaten in the 1st round by a team led by Carmelo Anthony (in which JR Smith or Raymond Felton was the 2nd best player), the season that Ray was not here and KG and PP were.  His impact on the scoreboard was never appreciated (he had the best on/off per 100 possessions in both 09 and 10, yes even better than KG). 

Even while he was here, the fanbase never respected Allen, but when he left for Miami it was like he was a role player his entire tenure.  His place in Celtics history has been badly misremembered by the fanbase.  Without him, there is no title.  The team needed his offensive game to score enough points to beat the good teams.  They don't do that without him.  They don't even land KG without him.  Ray Allen made the Celtics desirable for a guy like KG to waive his no trade clause.  Ray Allen set a tone with his professionalism.  Ray Allen made Boston a good enough offensive team that they could actually win a title. 

That isn't to say KG wasn't important, he absolutely was.  Boston doesn't win a title without him either.  And as I've pretty consistently said, Boston stopped being a true contender when KG stopped being a top 5 player and his injury really accelerated his decline and Boston's true window of contention. 

I don't think either KG or Ray deserved to have their number retired.  That should be the highest honor a franchise can give a player, and I don't think KG or Ray played long enough (or with enough success) to have their number retired.  Pierce is the only guy who should be up there since basically Bird/McHale/Parish (I can understand Lewis, though I wouldn't have retired his number either).  Boston quite simply has retired too many numbers which cheapens it for the players truly deserving.

Do not try and equate changing the offence with changing the culture.

Does KG come to Boston without Ray Allen on the team?

I don’t think it needed to be Ray specifically, but really any all-star caliber player.  But, Ray happened to be that guy, and there’s no doubt that he played well here.

Maybe it could have been someone else, but it was Ray.  Ray was the guy that let KG know that Boston wasn't the same old Boston.  They had a guy like Allen paired with Pierce and that was enough for KG to believe Boston was no longer a loser.  That is pretty much the definition of a culture change. I have no idea if a random all star would have indicated that to KG, but future HOFer Ray Allen did.

https://www.boston.com/sports/boston-celtics/2017/07/31/the-kevin-garnett-trade-almost-never-happened-because-of-this-contract-hurdle/

The only problem was KG wanted nothing to do with Boston. He wanted warm weather and a chance to contend, not icy winters and the second-worst team in the league. Garnett (who had a player option the next summer) made it clear he wouldn’t sign an extension. In turn, Ainge wasn’t about to give up Al Jefferson and the No. 5 pick for a one-year rental.

In the meantime, Ainge never gave up on Garnett. He traded for Ray Allen. He stayed in Kevin McHale’s ear. Minnesota and Boston got close on another deal, only this time, when Ainge and KG met person, Garnett was more motivated to relocate. With Ray Allen on board, he thought the Celtics had a shot.

[ozgod]

I'm ok with Ray having his number retired one day. He was part of that Big Three that brought us a chip. Let bygones be bygones. If it's good enough for KG it's good enough for me. I find it hard to keep hating someone for something that happened 10 years ago.

[Adelaide Celt]

Pass on Ray Allen getting his jersey retired. KG’s jersey, I was already iffy but he was the heart and soul of the team so fine, I could see it happening. He changed the way the C’s were viewed in the modern era. That’s gotta count for something I suppose.

What did Ray Allen do? And is he more deserving than say, Rondo (who I also don’t think should have his jersey retired)?

Ray Allen changed the Celtics culture and brought the team their first title in over 20 years.

Ray Allen was actually notorious for not being connected to the rest of the Celtics. Multiple players have commented how the whole team would show up for each other’s charity events and ray was the only player that wouldn’t do it.

Off the court, perhaps, but on the court Allen gets no where near the credit he deserves.  He changed the entire offense with his shooting.  He had the most remarkable shooting run I've ever seen in the Finals in 08 (52.4% on 7 attempts).  He was absolutely Boston's best player in the Finals and they don't win that title without him.  KG rejected overtures from Boston for a very long time until Ray Allen was on the team.  Without Allen, and what he represented, Boston doesn't land KG.  Boston went from basically a 50 win team and a ECF appearance to a game over .500 and getting beaten in the 1st round by a team led by Carmelo Anthony (in which JR Smith or Raymond Felton was the 2nd best player), the season that Ray was not here and KG and PP were.  His impact on the scoreboard was never appreciated (he had the best on/off per 100 possessions in both 09 and 10, yes even better than KG). 

Even while he was here, the fanbase never respected Allen, but when he left for Miami it was like he was a role player his entire tenure.  His place in Celtics history has been badly misremembered by the fanbase.  Without him, there is no title.  The team needed his offensive game to score enough points to beat the good teams.  They don't do that without him.  They don't even land KG without him.  Ray Allen made the Celtics desirable for a guy like KG to waive his no trade clause.  Ray Allen set a tone with his professionalism.  Ray Allen made Boston a good enough offensive team that they could actually win a title. 

That isn't to say KG wasn't important, he absolutely was.  Boston doesn't win a title without him either.  And as I've pretty consistently said, Boston stopped being a true contender when KG stopped being a top 5 player and his injury really accelerated his decline and Boston's true window of contention. 

I don't think either KG or Ray deserved to have their number retired.  That should be the highest honor a franchise can give a player, and I don't think KG or Ray played long enough (or with enough success) to have their number retired.  Pierce is the only guy who should be up there since basically Bird/McHale/Parish (I can understand Lewis, though I wouldn't have retired his number either).  Boston quite simply has retired too many numbers which cheapens it for the players truly deserving.

Do not try and equate changing the offence with changing the culture.

Does KG come to Boston without Ray Allen on the team?

Does that have anything to do with the impact KG had?

No and I never said it did.  Me claiming that Ray changed the culture and was vital to the championship, doesn't mean KG didn't also do those things.  They arrived during the same season.  The team doesn't win the title without either.  They are not mutually exclusive statements.  I do believe KG gets a disproportionate amount of the credit, but that doesn't mean he doesn't deserve any credit, he absolutely does.  And I do think Ray was nearly important to the offense as KG was to the defense of the team.  The team was significantly better when Ray Allen played as opposed to when he was on the bench and imo he pretty clearly played the best of any Celtic during the 08 Finals.  The team also got significantly worse when he left.

So you're saying he should've gotten Finals MVP? Get your hand off it.

[Moranis]

Pass on Ray Allen getting his jersey retired. KG’s jersey, I was already iffy but he was the heart and soul of the team so fine, I could see it happening. He changed the way the C’s were viewed in the modern era. That’s gotta count for something I suppose.

What did Ray Allen do? And is he more deserving than say, Rondo (who I also don’t think should have his jersey retired)?

Ray Allen changed the Celtics culture and brought the team their first title in over 20 years.

Ray Allen was actually notorious for not being connected to the rest of the Celtics. Multiple players have commented how the whole team would show up for each other’s charity events and ray was the only player that wouldn’t do it.

Off the court, perhaps, but on the court Allen gets no where near the credit he deserves.  He changed the entire offense with his shooting.  He had the most remarkable shooting run I've ever seen in the Finals in 08 (52.4% on 7 attempts).  He was absolutely Boston's best player in the Finals and they don't win that title without him.  KG rejected overtures from Boston for a very long time until Ray Allen was on the team.  Without Allen, and what he represented, Boston doesn't land KG.  Boston went from basically a 50 win team and a ECF appearance to a game over .500 and getting beaten in the 1st round by a team led by Carmelo Anthony (in which JR Smith or Raymond Felton was the 2nd best player), the season that Ray was not here and KG and PP were.  His impact on the scoreboard was never appreciated (he had the best on/off per 100 possessions in both 09 and 10, yes even better than KG). 

Even while he was here, the fanbase never respected Allen, but when he left for Miami it was like he was a role player his entire tenure.  His place in Celtics history has been badly misremembered by the fanbase.  Without him, there is no title.  The team needed his offensive game to score enough points to beat the good teams.  They don't do that without him.  They don't even land KG without him.  Ray Allen made the Celtics desirable for a guy like KG to waive his no trade clause.  Ray Allen set a tone with his professionalism.  Ray Allen made Boston a good enough offensive team that they could actually win a title. 

That isn't to say KG wasn't important, he absolutely was.  Boston doesn't win a title without him either.  And as I've pretty consistently said, Boston stopped being a true contender when KG stopped being a top 5 player and his injury really accelerated his decline and Boston's true window of contention. 

I don't think either KG or Ray deserved to have their number retired.  That should be the highest honor a franchise can give a player, and I don't think KG or Ray played long enough (or with enough success) to have their number retired.  Pierce is the only guy who should be up there since basically Bird/McHale/Parish (I can understand Lewis, though I wouldn't have retired his number either).  Boston quite simply has retired too many numbers which cheapens it for the players truly deserving.

Do not try and equate changing the offence with changing the culture.

Does KG come to Boston without Ray Allen on the team?

Does that have anything to do with the impact KG had?

No and I never said it did.  Me claiming that Ray changed the culture and was vital to the championship, doesn't mean KG didn't also do those things.  They arrived during the same season.  The team doesn't win the title without either.  They are not mutually exclusive statements.  I do believe KG gets a disproportionate amount of the credit, but that doesn't mean he doesn't deserve any credit, he absolutely does.  And I do think Ray was nearly important to the offense as KG was to the defense of the team.  The team was significantly better when Ray Allen played as opposed to when he was on the bench and imo he pretty clearly played the best of any Celtic during the 08 Finals.  The team also got significantly worse when he left.

So you're saying he should've gotten Finals MVP? Get your hand off it.

I was fine with Pierce winning.  He and Allen were fairly similar and Pierce was the longtime Celtic, but I do believe Allen was the better player over that 6 game stretch (Pierce was better over the course of the entire season, though Garnett was pretty clearly the best player on the team overall despite having the worst series of the 3).  Allen was just so good shooting the ball, I think he set the tone that series.  Allen was 22 of 42 from 3 that series and he actually outrebounded Pierce.  Pierce had way more assists and with his 15 extra FGA scored 9 more points in the series (21.8 ppg to 20.3 ppg).  Allen's TS% was 70.8% for the series (Pierce 58.8 and Garnett 47).  Allen had the best GmSc on the team at 16.7, Pierce was 15.6, and Garnett was 14.6.  Allen had the best differential between ORTG and DRTG of the 3, 129/106 vs. 112/106 for Pierce, and 99/99 for Garnett.  Allen also played more minutes so was on the floor longer. 

I think you could have given it to any of the 3 as no one really separated themselves, but Allen was the best player in that series. 

[Roy H.]

Pass on Ray Allen getting his jersey retired. KG’s jersey, I was already iffy but he was the heart and soul of the team so fine, I could see it happening. He changed the way the C’s were viewed in the modern era. That’s gotta count for something I suppose.

What did Ray Allen do? And is he more deserving than say, Rondo (who I also don’t think should have his jersey retired)?

Ray Allen changed the Celtics culture and brought the team their first title in over 20 years.

Ray Allen was actually notorious for not being connected to the rest of the Celtics. Multiple players have commented how the whole team would show up for each other’s charity events and ray was the only player that wouldn’t do it.

Off the court, perhaps, but on the court Allen gets no where near the credit he deserves.  He changed the entire offense with his shooting.  He had the most remarkable shooting run I've ever seen in the Finals in 08 (52.4% on 7 attempts).  He was absolutely Boston's best player in the Finals and they don't win that title without him.  KG rejected overtures from Boston for a very long time until Ray Allen was on the team.  Without Allen, and what he represented, Boston doesn't land KG.  Boston went from basically a 50 win team and a ECF appearance to a game over .500 and getting beaten in the 1st round by a team led by Carmelo Anthony (in which JR Smith or Raymond Felton was the 2nd best player), the season that Ray was not here and KG and PP were.  His impact on the scoreboard was never appreciated (he had the best on/off per 100 possessions in both 09 and 10, yes even better than KG). 

Even while he was here, the fanbase never respected Allen, but when he left for Miami it was like he was a role player his entire tenure.  His place in Celtics history has been badly misremembered by the fanbase.  Without him, there is no title.  The team needed his offensive game to score enough points to beat the good teams.  They don't do that without him.  They don't even land KG without him.  Ray Allen made the Celtics desirable for a guy like KG to waive his no trade clause.  Ray Allen set a tone with his professionalism.  Ray Allen made Boston a good enough offensive team that they could actually win a title. 

That isn't to say KG wasn't important, he absolutely was.  Boston doesn't win a title without him either.  And as I've pretty consistently said, Boston stopped being a true contender when KG stopped being a top 5 player and his injury really accelerated his decline and Boston's true window of contention. 

I don't think either KG or Ray deserved to have their number retired.  That should be the highest honor a franchise can give a player, and I don't think KG or Ray played long enough (or with enough success) to have their number retired.  Pierce is the only guy who should be up there since basically Bird/McHale/Parish (I can understand Lewis, though I wouldn't have retired his number either).  Boston quite simply has retired too many numbers which cheapens it for the players truly deserving.

Do not try and equate changing the offence with changing the culture.

Does KG come to Boston without Ray Allen on the team?

Does that have anything to do with the impact KG had?

No and I never said it did.  Me claiming that Ray changed the culture and was vital to the championship, doesn't mean KG didn't also do those things.  They arrived during the same season.  The team doesn't win the title without either.  They are not mutually exclusive statements.  I do believe KG gets a disproportionate amount of the credit, but that doesn't mean he doesn't deserve any credit, he absolutely does.  And I do think Ray was nearly important to the offense as KG was to the defense of the team.  The team was significantly better when Ray Allen played as opposed to when he was on the bench and imo he pretty clearly played the best of any Celtic during the 08 Finals.  The team also got significantly worse when he left.

So you're saying he should've gotten Finals MVP? Get your hand off it.

I was fine with Pierce winning.  He and Allen were fairly similar and Pierce was the longtime Celtic, but I do believe Allen was the better player over that 6 game stretch (Pierce was better over the course of the entire season, though Garnett was pretty clearly the best player on the team overall despite having the worst series of the 3).  Allen was just so good shooting the ball, I think he set the tone that series.  Allen was 22 of 42 from 3 that series and he actually outrebounded Pierce.  Pierce had way more assists and with his 15 extra FGA scored 9 more points in the series (21.8 ppg to 20.3 ppg).  Allen's TS% was 70.8% for the series (Pierce 58.8 and Garnett 47).  Allen had the best GmSc on the team at 16.7, Pierce was 15.6, and Garnett was 14.6.  Allen had the best differential between ORTG and DRTG of the 3, 129/106 vs. 112/106 for Pierce, and 99/99 for Garnett.  Allen also played more minutes so was on the floor longer. 

I think you could have given it to any of the 3 as no one really separated themselves, but Allen was the best player in that series.

The most efficient player scoring-wise, I'd say, rather than best player.  He wasn't the leading scorer (Pierce), he wasn't the best defender, and Pierce averaged 6.3 assists in that series.

As for the series, Ray was bad in Games 1 and 5, and he was really only great in two games:  Game 3 (in which he was -9 in a game we lost by 6) and Game 6 (a blowout win).  Statistically you can make an argument for him offensively due to his efficiency, but overall I think Pierce was the right choice.

But, to the larger point, I agree that he was a crucial part of the championship team, rather than the afterthought some fans treat him as.

[nickagneta]

Pass on Ray Allen getting his jersey retired. KG’s jersey, I was already iffy but he was the heart and soul of the team so fine, I could see it happening. He changed the way the C’s were viewed in the modern era. That’s gotta count for something I suppose.

What did Ray Allen do? And is he more deserving than say, Rondo (who I also don’t think should have his jersey retired)?

Ray Allen changed the Celtics culture and brought the team their first title in over 20 years.

Ray Allen was actually notorious for not being connected to the rest of the Celtics. Multiple players have commented how the whole team would show up for each other’s charity events and ray was the only player that wouldn’t do it.

Off the court, perhaps, but on the court Allen gets no where near the credit he deserves.  He changed the entire offense with his shooting.  He had the most remarkable shooting run I've ever seen in the Finals in 08 (52.4% on 7 attempts).  He was absolutely Boston's best player in the Finals and they don't win that title without him.  KG rejected overtures from Boston for a very long time until Ray Allen was on the team.  Without Allen, and what he represented, Boston doesn't land KG.  Boston went from basically a 50 win team and a ECF appearance to a game over .500 and getting beaten in the 1st round by a team led by Carmelo Anthony (in which JR Smith or Raymond Felton was the 2nd best player), the season that Ray was not here and KG and PP were.  His impact on the scoreboard was never appreciated (he had the best on/off per 100 possessions in both 09 and 10, yes even better than KG). 

Even while he was here, the fanbase never respected Allen, but when he left for Miami it was like he was a role player his entire tenure.  His place in Celtics history has been badly misremembered by the fanbase.  Without him, there is no title.  The team needed his offensive game to score enough points to beat the good teams.  They don't do that without him.  They don't even land KG without him.  Ray Allen made the Celtics desirable for a guy like KG to waive his no trade clause.  Ray Allen set a tone with his professionalism.  Ray Allen made Boston a good enough offensive team that they could actually win a title. 

That isn't to say KG wasn't important, he absolutely was.  Boston doesn't win a title without him either.  And as I've pretty consistently said, Boston stopped being a true contender when KG stopped being a top 5 player and his injury really accelerated his decline and Boston's true window of contention. 

I don't think either KG or Ray deserved to have their number retired.  That should be the highest honor a franchise can give a player, and I don't think KG or Ray played long enough (or with enough success) to have their number retired.  Pierce is the only guy who should be up there since basically Bird/McHale/Parish (I can understand Lewis, though I wouldn't have retired his number either).  Boston quite simply has retired too many numbers which cheapens it for the players truly deserving.

Do not try and equate changing the offence with changing the culture.

Does KG come to Boston without Ray Allen on the team?

I don’t think it needed to be Ray specifically, but really any all-star caliber player.  But, Ray happened to be that guy, and there’s no doubt that he played well here.

Lest we forget, that Ray Allen trade got rid of Wally Szczerbiak, which was actually more important than bringing in Ray because KG detested Wally with a burning passion and was not coming to Boston if Wally was here.

So I think you're right Roy. It didn't matter that it was specifically Ray that came here that closed the deal to get KG here. It was more like move Szczerbiak and get a good player and that gets Garnett to Boston.

[Roy H.]

Pass on Ray Allen getting his jersey retired. KG’s jersey, I was already iffy but he was the heart and soul of the team so fine, I could see it happening. He changed the way the C’s were viewed in the modern era. That’s gotta count for something I suppose.

What did Ray Allen do? And is he more deserving than say, Rondo (who I also don’t think should have his jersey retired)?

Ray Allen changed the Celtics culture and brought the team their first title in over 20 years.

Ray Allen was actually notorious for not being connected to the rest of the Celtics. Multiple players have commented how the whole team would show up for each other’s charity events and ray was the only player that wouldn’t do it.

Off the court, perhaps, but on the court Allen gets no where near the credit he deserves.  He changed the entire offense with his shooting.  He had the most remarkable shooting run I've ever seen in the Finals in 08 (52.4% on 7 attempts).  He was absolutely Boston's best player in the Finals and they don't win that title without him.  KG rejected overtures from Boston for a very long time until Ray Allen was on the team.  Without Allen, and what he represented, Boston doesn't land KG.  Boston went from basically a 50 win team and a ECF appearance to a game over .500 and getting beaten in the 1st round by a team led by Carmelo Anthony (in which JR Smith or Raymond Felton was the 2nd best player), the season that Ray was not here and KG and PP were.  His impact on the scoreboard was never appreciated (he had the best on/off per 100 possessions in both 09 and 10, yes even better than KG). 

Even while he was here, the fanbase never respected Allen, but when he left for Miami it was like he was a role player his entire tenure.  His place in Celtics history has been badly misremembered by the fanbase.  Without him, there is no title.  The team needed his offensive game to score enough points to beat the good teams.  They don't do that without him.  They don't even land KG without him.  Ray Allen made the Celtics desirable for a guy like KG to waive his no trade clause.  Ray Allen set a tone with his professionalism.  Ray Allen made Boston a good enough offensive team that they could actually win a title. 

That isn't to say KG wasn't important, he absolutely was.  Boston doesn't win a title without him either.  And as I've pretty consistently said, Boston stopped being a true contender when KG stopped being a top 5 player and his injury really accelerated his decline and Boston's true window of contention. 

I don't think either KG or Ray deserved to have their number retired.  That should be the highest honor a franchise can give a player, and I don't think KG or Ray played long enough (or with enough success) to have their number retired.  Pierce is the only guy who should be up there since basically Bird/McHale/Parish (I can understand Lewis, though I wouldn't have retired his number either).  Boston quite simply has retired too many numbers which cheapens it for the players truly deserving.

Do not try and equate changing the offence with changing the culture.

Does KG come to Boston without Ray Allen on the team?

I don’t think it needed to be Ray specifically, but really any all-star caliber player.  But, Ray happened to be that guy, and there’s no doubt that he played well here.

Lest we forget, that Ray Allen trade got rid of Wally Szczerbiak, which was actually more important than bringing in Ray because KG detested Wally with a burning passion and was not coming to Boston if Wally was here.

So I think you're right Roy. It didn't matter that it was specifically Ray that came here that closed the deal to get KG here. It was more like move Szczerbiak and get a good player and that gets Garnett to Boston.

The funny thing about KG's retirement ceremony was when they were talking about how there was never a teammate that didn't appreciate KG.  I can't remember if it was Mike, Scal or Pierce, but they were clearly misremembering, haha. 

[Moranis]

Pass on Ray Allen getting his jersey retired. KG’s jersey, I was already iffy but he was the heart and soul of the team so fine, I could see it happening. He changed the way the C’s were viewed in the modern era. That’s gotta count for something I suppose.

What did Ray Allen do? And is he more deserving than say, Rondo (who I also don’t think should have his jersey retired)?

Ray Allen changed the Celtics culture and brought the team their first title in over 20 years.

Ray Allen was actually notorious for not being connected to the rest of the Celtics. Multiple players have commented how the whole team would show up for each other’s charity events and ray was the only player that wouldn’t do it.

Off the court, perhaps, but on the court Allen gets no where near the credit he deserves.  He changed the entire offense with his shooting.  He had the most remarkable shooting run I've ever seen in the Finals in 08 (52.4% on 7 attempts).  He was absolutely Boston's best player in the Finals and they don't win that title without him.  KG rejected overtures from Boston for a very long time until Ray Allen was on the team.  Without Allen, and what he represented, Boston doesn't land KG.  Boston went from basically a 50 win team and a ECF appearance to a game over .500 and getting beaten in the 1st round by a team led by Carmelo Anthony (in which JR Smith or Raymond Felton was the 2nd best player), the season that Ray was not here and KG and PP were.  His impact on the scoreboard was never appreciated (he had the best on/off per 100 possessions in both 09 and 10, yes even better than KG). 

Even while he was here, the fanbase never respected Allen, but when he left for Miami it was like he was a role player his entire tenure.  His place in Celtics history has been badly misremembered by the fanbase.  Without him, there is no title.  The team needed his offensive game to score enough points to beat the good teams.  They don't do that without him.  They don't even land KG without him.  Ray Allen made the Celtics desirable for a guy like KG to waive his no trade clause.  Ray Allen set a tone with his professionalism.  Ray Allen made Boston a good enough offensive team that they could actually win a title. 

That isn't to say KG wasn't important, he absolutely was.  Boston doesn't win a title without him either.  And as I've pretty consistently said, Boston stopped being a true contender when KG stopped being a top 5 player and his injury really accelerated his decline and Boston's true window of contention. 

I don't think either KG or Ray deserved to have their number retired.  That should be the highest honor a franchise can give a player, and I don't think KG or Ray played long enough (or with enough success) to have their number retired.  Pierce is the only guy who should be up there since basically Bird/McHale/Parish (I can understand Lewis, though I wouldn't have retired his number either).  Boston quite simply has retired too many numbers which cheapens it for the players truly deserving.

Do not try and equate changing the offence with changing the culture.

Does KG come to Boston without Ray Allen on the team?

Does that have anything to do with the impact KG had?

No and I never said it did.  Me claiming that Ray changed the culture and was vital to the championship, doesn't mean KG didn't also do those things.  They arrived during the same season.  The team doesn't win the title without either.  They are not mutually exclusive statements.  I do believe KG gets a disproportionate amount of the credit, but that doesn't mean he doesn't deserve any credit, he absolutely does.  And I do think Ray was nearly important to the offense as KG was to the defense of the team.  The team was significantly better when Ray Allen played as opposed to when he was on the bench and imo he pretty clearly played the best of any Celtic during the 08 Finals.  The team also got significantly worse when he left.

So you're saying he should've gotten Finals MVP? Get your hand off it.

I was fine with Pierce winning.  He and Allen were fairly similar and Pierce was the longtime Celtic, but I do believe Allen was the better player over that 6 game stretch (Pierce was better over the course of the entire season, though Garnett was pretty clearly the best player on the team overall despite having the worst series of the 3).  Allen was just so good shooting the ball, I think he set the tone that series.  Allen was 22 of 42 from 3 that series and he actually outrebounded Pierce.  Pierce had way more assists and with his 15 extra FGA scored 9 more points in the series (21.8 ppg to 20.3 ppg).  Allen's TS% was 70.8% for the series (Pierce 58.8 and Garnett 47).  Allen had the best GmSc on the team at 16.7, Pierce was 15.6, and Garnett was 14.6.  Allen had the best differential between ORTG and DRTG of the 3, 129/106 vs. 112/106 for Pierce, and 99/99 for Garnett.  Allen also played more minutes so was on the floor longer. 

I think you could have given it to any of the 3 as no one really separated themselves, but Allen was the best player in that series.

The most efficient player scoring-wise, I'd say, rather than best player.  He wasn't the leading scorer (Pierce), he wasn't the best defender, and Pierce averaged 6.3 assists in that series.

As for the series, Ray was bad in Games 1 and 5, and he was really only great in two games:  Game 3 (in which he was -9 in a game we lost by 6) and Game 6 (a blowout win).  Statistically you can make an argument for him offensively due to his efficiency, but overall I think Pierce was the right choice.

But, to the larger point, I agree that he was a crucial part of the championship team, rather than the afterthought some fans treat him as.

I agree he didn't shoot well in Game 1, but he did lead the team at +11 (if you point it out in game 3, game 1 is fair game) and he did end it with 19 points, 8 rebounds, and 5 assists.  He was just bad in Game 5.  Worst game in the series from him without question, but his GmSc was still 6.8, which is bad, but nothing like Pierce's game 3 GmSc which was -3.1. 

As I said, I have no issue with Pierce winning and think any of the Big 3 could have been defended, I just think Allen was the best player overall on the team in the series and the advanced metrics do actually support that (Posey had even better advanced metrics, but totals do have to factor in which is why he would never be in this sort of discussion).