If JT & JB Are 1 & 2, How Can We Realistically Get a Big 3 With JT/JB/X?

[todd_days_41]

I'm looking at the Lakers and I'm reminded of what poor chemistry is all about. Even with Lebron, a walking triple double machine, and AD, they struggle from off-season personal additions.

The C's are fortunate in that Jaylen (when healthy) is willing to let Jayson be the team face... and also receive the Lions share of the team attention. He's fine with being the second banana. But if this team adds another Alpha dog shot-taker, Jaylen is not going to be a happy camper.

IMO a known veteran PG who plays hard, has league weight, respect, and solid leadership qualities... someone who has the ability to give the game what it needs. That's the best option. (If this player has a ring...all the better.) Someone the J's need to pay attention to.

Marcus goes to the bench as a sixth man where he's best suited.

It's not a coincidence that Carmelo's best run with Denver happened after he got Chauncey.  That sort of floor general would be great for the Jays.

I'm just not seeing many examples of that sort of player in the league right now.  Chris Paul isn't leaving Phoenix and hates Boston anyway.  Utah isn't letting Mike Conley go.  Kyle Lowry just signed in Miami.  Who else is there?

• I've made my admiration for SGA plain on this board, but I don't think the Cs can get him for anything less than Tatum. Brown's mounting injury issues may place his value below SGA.
• Same goes for Haliburton. Cs should see what it takes to pry him away and play him at PG in Boston.
• This team could have and should have drafted Cole Anthony. He's good not great, but man is he fun to watch. Would ORL trade Anthony, Wagner and change for Jaylen B?
• Brogdon can't be traded.
• Dejounte Murray could be had. The Spurs badly need a full rebuild -- should they trade Murray now, while his value is high (and he's healthy)?
• Is Damian Lillard going to make it past the trade deadline in POR?
• Hard to see CLE trading Rubio right now, considering their improvement.
• Josh Hart is a nifty playmaker and great glue guy. Would love to see the Cs acquire him.

There's a bunch of players out there that would improve our PG play.

Regarding you making your feelings plain on this board regarding SGA, when did you do that? Like once or twice less than a week ago?

I’ve suggested the Cs should trade for him if they move either Tatum or Brown no less than a dozen times. You don’t like the player?

[todd_days_41]

Adding a third piece wouldn’t be a problem IMHO.  We have enough assets that we could pull one of those three picks + three pick swaps kinda setups like Milwaukee used to get Jrue.

But to be perfectly candid, I’m not convinced we’re even close enough to make a move like that at this point.  At some point these dudes need to show us that it’s worth going for it with them.  Because the last year and a half say that it isn’t.

Bingo. is adding one player going to take them from utter mediocrity to championship contender?

I think the following question is still very much out there: should the Cs be building around Tatum and Brown? or should they be using Brown and / or Tatum to build something else?

Tatum and Brown aren't the problem with this roster. Outside of those two you have a couple of 6th men, a couple back up centers and a G league team.

Adding a legit third offensive option would make a huge difference. We are way too easy to game plan against.

How about hHorford and Schroeder. Schroeder was third banana on those Lakers

It's a bit of both.  But just let the Jay's grow and find a good third banana

Schroeder is a sixth man. Third banana didn't work for him with the fakers. So is Smart, love him but he's not a starting pg. At this stage, Horford is a backup center. As is Williams.

I agree with your assessment, except regarding Rob Williams — who should be a pick-n-roll monster if this team had a proper point guard.

[nickagneta]

I'm looking at the Lakers and I'm reminded of what poor chemistry is all about. Even with Lebron, a walking triple double machine, and AD, they struggle from off-season personal additions.

The C's are fortunate in that Jaylen (when healthy) is willing to let Jayson be the team face... and also receive the Lions share of the team attention. He's fine with being the second banana. But if this team adds another Alpha dog shot-taker, Jaylen is not going to be a happy camper.

IMO a known veteran PG who plays hard, has league weight, respect, and solid leadership qualities... someone who has the ability to give the game what it needs. That's the best option. (If this player has a ring...all the better.) Someone the J's need to pay attention to.

Marcus goes to the bench as a sixth man where he's best suited.

It's not a coincidence that Carmelo's best run with Denver happened after he got Chauncey.  That sort of floor general would be great for the Jays.

I'm just not seeing many examples of that sort of player in the league right now.  Chris Paul isn't leaving Phoenix and hates Boston anyway.  Utah isn't letting Mike Conley go.  Kyle Lowry just signed in Miami.  Who else is there?

• I've made my admiration for SGA plain on this board, but I don't think the Cs can get him for anything less than Tatum. Brown's mounting injury issues may place his value below SGA.
• Same goes for Haliburton. Cs should see what it takes to pry him away and play him at PG in Boston.
• This team could have and should have drafted Cole Anthony. He's good not great, but man is he fun to watch. Would ORL trade Anthony, Wagner and change for Jaylen B?
• Brogdon can't be traded.
• Dejounte Murray could be had. The Spurs badly need a full rebuild -- should they trade Murray now, while his value is high (and he's healthy)?
• Is Damian Lillard going to make it past the trade deadline in POR?
• Hard to see CLE trading Rubio right now, considering their improvement.
• Josh Hart is a nifty playmaker and great glue guy. Would love to see the Cs acquire him.

There's a bunch of players out there that would improve our PG play.

Regarding you making your feelings plain on this board regarding SGA, when did you do that? Like once or twice less than a week ago?

I’ve suggested the Cs should trade for him if they move either Tatum or Brown no less than a dozen times. You don’t like the player?

Like the player, just, as much as I am on this board, I didn't remember you mentioning him. So after asking you, I looked. I was right, you haven't done it until a week or so ago. Maybe you are on multiple boards and just forgot where you post things.

Anyway, I like SGA. Just not sure trading one of the Jays for him accomplishes anything more than changing around the seats on the deck of the Titanic. The more I watch this team this year, the more I am convinced the problem isn't the Jays, it's everyone else surrounding the Jays that's the problem.

[todd_days_41]

I'm looking at the Lakers and I'm reminded of what poor chemistry is all about. Even with Lebron, a walking triple double machine, and AD, they struggle from off-season personal additions.

The C's are fortunate in that Jaylen (when healthy) is willing to let Jayson be the team face... and also receive the Lions share of the team attention. He's fine with being the second banana. But if this team adds another Alpha dog shot-taker, Jaylen is not going to be a happy camper.

IMO a known veteran PG who plays hard, has league weight, respect, and solid leadership qualities... someone who has the ability to give the game what it needs. That's the best option. (If this player has a ring...all the better.) Someone the J's need to pay attention to.

Marcus goes to the bench as a sixth man where he's best suited.

It's not a coincidence that Carmelo's best run with Denver happened after he got Chauncey.  That sort of floor general would be great for the Jays.

I'm just not seeing many examples of that sort of player in the league right now.  Chris Paul isn't leaving Phoenix and hates Boston anyway.  Utah isn't letting Mike Conley go.  Kyle Lowry just signed in Miami.  Who else is there?

• I've made my admiration for SGA plain on this board, but I don't think the Cs can get him for anything less than Tatum. Brown's mounting injury issues may place his value below SGA.
• Same goes for Haliburton. Cs should see what it takes to pry him away and play him at PG in Boston.
• This team could have and should have drafted Cole Anthony. He's good not great, but man is he fun to watch. Would ORL trade Anthony, Wagner and change for Jaylen B?
• Brogdon can't be traded.
• Dejounte Murray could be had. The Spurs badly need a full rebuild -- should they trade Murray now, while his value is high (and he's healthy)?
• Is Damian Lillard going to make it past the trade deadline in POR?
• Hard to see CLE trading Rubio right now, considering their improvement.
• Josh Hart is a nifty playmaker and great glue guy. Would love to see the Cs acquire him.

There's a bunch of players out there that would improve our PG play.

Regarding you making your feelings plain on this board regarding SGA, when did you do that? Like once or twice less than a week ago?

I’ve suggested the Cs should trade for him if they move either Tatum or Brown no less than a dozen times. You don’t like the player?

Like the player, just, as much as I am on this board, I didn't remember you mentioning him. So after asking you, I looked. I was right, you haven't done it until a week or so ago. Maybe you are on multiple boards and just forgot where you post things.

Anyway, I like SGA. Just not sure trading one of the Jays for him accomplishes anything more than changing around the seats on the deck of the Titanic. The more I watch this team this year, the more I am convinced the problem isn't the Jays, it's everyone else surrounding the Jays that's the problem.

Why do you care?

As for SGA, what does he have in common with either Tatum or Brown? That you don’t want to trade either of them is very clear.  I don’t happen to feel the same way after watching this team go .500 over the last 100 games.

But I have doubts about whether Brown could actually cause OKC to even consider it, and I don’t think the Celts should trade Tatum — at least nowhere near right now.

FWIW, I don’t see the Js as “the problem”, though i do have some concerns about both of them. The Cs have lots of other problems.

That said, I have concerns about the Cs ability to improve themselves through other “assets”, while generally seeing the Js as a marginal fit together — which ain’t exactly news.

[W8ting2McHale]

The more I watch this team this year, the more I am convinced the problem isn't the Jays, it's everyone else surrounding the Jays that's the problem.

I agree with this, and I understand everyone else being frustrated, but the situation isn’t (or should not be) unexpected.

I expected this team to be a couple of games over .500 at the New Year and then go on a run the 2nd half of the season.

Why?
1- We have a rookie coach and a new team built around Tatum and Brown. As much as people want to claim this team has been mediocre since 2019, sorry, this is a different team. It’s not the 2020-2021 team.
2- The Celtics started the season playing more road games than home games. In the NBA the home team usually wins. Even the best teams are just a little over .500 on the road. It is a clear recipe for a .500 record.
3- They just finished a brutal west coast trip with a losing record. The Celtics seldom do well on West Coast trips, and this one featured all the top teams outside of GSW, while missing our 2nd best player. I was hoping for 2-3, but not surprised at 1-4.
4- We are playing without our 2nd best player. People were commenting that Brown looked like a poor man’s MJ after the 1st game and was better than Tatum. This team can’t afford to lose that level of talent and win.
5- The schedule gets markedly easier after New Years. They’re playing a front loaded schedule. They will have time to regroup and make a run the second half once the schedule is easier.
6- This year’s team was always going to be about how far Jaylen and Jaysun could take them. They don’t have much room for error and playing so many games without Brown isn’t going to result in a winning record. I was expecting 3-4 more wins at this point, but with Jaylen injured, they are right where I expected them to be.

The things I didn’t expect:
1- Ime to run Horford into the ground. He’s been playing well, but he looked old and tired in LA.
2- Ime to have such a short rotation. I expected to see more of Nesmith, Pritchard and Freedom. Enes has been getting some run lately, but Ime seems to be stuck on “The number of the rotation shall be 8. It shall not be 9 or 10, neither 6 nor 7, but 8. 8 players shall be the number of the rotation and 8 shall be the number that play. Only 8, no more, no less.”
3- Nesmith and Pritchard both looked great in summer league, but underwhelming when they get playing time. Payton had a face mask after getting injured that may have disrupted his shot, but he doesn’t look like the playmaker he was in summer league. Fortunately we have Schröder ahead of him. Nesmith has been more disappointing because his intended skill set is needed and unlike Payton, there’s really no one blocking him but himself. Romeo has been looking okay, but I was expecting him to start learning how to finish at the rim by now. At least he’s contributing.
4- Brown to miss so many games. I was actually a little concerned about his high flying dunks earlier in the season and thought he should dial it back a little. Oh well, too late. He still has plenty of time to turn things around but it’s putting too much on Tatum to carry the team.
5- I was hoping Smart would not regress back to chucking up shots trying to be the number 2 in Brown’s absence, but here we are. I trust Schröder, Richardson and Langford more in that role, although none of them should be #2 either.

TLDR: there is a podcast in the sidebar every day linked to [The dawn of the J’s era[/b]. Sadly it seems like most of this forum wants to bury it before it’s even begun. Until Brown is back healthy we have no idea what this team can do, but Ime has to figure a few things out too.

[nickagneta]

I'm looking at the Lakers and I'm reminded of what poor chemistry is all about. Even with Lebron, a walking triple double machine, and AD, they struggle from off-season personal additions.

The C's are fortunate in that Jaylen (when healthy) is willing to let Jayson be the team face... and also receive the Lions share of the team attention. He's fine with being the second banana. But if this team adds another Alpha dog shot-taker, Jaylen is not going to be a happy camper.

IMO a known veteran PG who plays hard, has league weight, respect, and solid leadership qualities... someone who has the ability to give the game what it needs. That's the best option. (If this player has a ring...all the better.) Someone the J's need to pay attention to.

Marcus goes to the bench as a sixth man where he's best suited.

It's not a coincidence that Carmelo's best run with Denver happened after he got Chauncey.  That sort of floor general would be great for the Jays.

I'm just not seeing many examples of that sort of player in the league right now.  Chris Paul isn't leaving Phoenix and hates Boston anyway.  Utah isn't letting Mike Conley go.  Kyle Lowry just signed in Miami.  Who else is there?

• I've made my admiration for SGA plain on this board, but I don't think the Cs can get him for anything less than Tatum. Brown's mounting injury issues may place his value below SGA.
• Same goes for Haliburton. Cs should see what it takes to pry him away and play him at PG in Boston.
• This team could have and should have drafted Cole Anthony. He's good not great, but man is he fun to watch. Would ORL trade Anthony, Wagner and change for Jaylen B?
• Brogdon can't be traded.
• Dejounte Murray could be had. The Spurs badly need a full rebuild -- should they trade Murray now, while his value is high (and he's healthy)?
• Is Damian Lillard going to make it past the trade deadline in POR?
• Hard to see CLE trading Rubio right now, considering their improvement.
• Josh Hart is a nifty playmaker and great glue guy. Would love to see the Cs acquire him.

There's a bunch of players out there that would improve our PG play.

Regarding you making your feelings plain on this board regarding SGA, when did you do that? Like once or twice less than a week ago?

I’ve suggested the Cs should trade for him if they move either Tatum or Brown no less than a dozen times. You don’t like the player?

Like the player, just, as much as I am on this board, I didn't remember you mentioning him. So after asking you, I looked. I was right, you haven't done it until a week or so ago. Maybe you are on multiple boards and just forgot where you post things.

Anyway, I like SGA. Just not sure trading one of the Jays for him accomplishes anything more than changing around the seats on the deck of the Titanic. The more I watch this team this year, the more I am convinced the problem isn't the Jays, it's everyone else surrounding the Jays that's the problem.

Why do you care?

Oh I don't care. I just thought it kinda strange. Sort of like:

You go down to your local bar, all your friends and locals are down there too. Your friend the bartender is with you and you're all goofing around. Then I guy that's been there once or twice before comes in and says to turn on the central TV to the Bruins game because everyone there knows he likes to watch the Bruins when he comes in. All of the regulars, the locals and the bartender look over and are like: "What?"

It's no biggie, I just thought it strange.

[todd_days_41]

I'm looking at the Lakers and I'm reminded of what poor chemistry is all about. Even with Lebron, a walking triple double machine, and AD, they struggle from off-season personal additions.

The C's are fortunate in that Jaylen (when healthy) is willing to let Jayson be the team face... and also receive the Lions share of the team attention. He's fine with being the second banana. But if this team adds another Alpha dog shot-taker, Jaylen is not going to be a happy camper.

IMO a known veteran PG who plays hard, has league weight, respect, and solid leadership qualities... someone who has the ability to give the game what it needs. That's the best option. (If this player has a ring...all the better.) Someone the J's need to pay attention to.

Marcus goes to the bench as a sixth man where he's best suited.

It's not a coincidence that Carmelo's best run with Denver happened after he got Chauncey.  That sort of floor general would be great for the Jays.

I'm just not seeing many examples of that sort of player in the league right now.  Chris Paul isn't leaving Phoenix and hates Boston anyway.  Utah isn't letting Mike Conley go.  Kyle Lowry just signed in Miami.  Who else is there?

• I've made my admiration for SGA plain on this board, but I don't think the Cs can get him for anything less than Tatum. Brown's mounting injury issues may place his value below SGA.
• Same goes for Haliburton. Cs should see what it takes to pry him away and play him at PG in Boston.
• This team could have and should have drafted Cole Anthony. He's good not great, but man is he fun to watch. Would ORL trade Anthony, Wagner and change for Jaylen B?
• Brogdon can't be traded.
• Dejounte Murray could be had. The Spurs badly need a full rebuild -- should they trade Murray now, while his value is high (and he's healthy)?
• Is Damian Lillard going to make it past the trade deadline in POR?
• Hard to see CLE trading Rubio right now, considering their improvement.
• Josh Hart is a nifty playmaker and great glue guy. Would love to see the Cs acquire him.

There's a bunch of players out there that would improve our PG play.

Regarding you making your feelings plain on this board regarding SGA, when did you do that? Like once or twice less than a week ago?

I’ve suggested the Cs should trade for him if they move either Tatum or Brown no less than a dozen times. You don’t like the player?

Like the player, just, as much as I am on this board, I didn't remember you mentioning him. So after asking you, I looked. I was right, you haven't done it until a week or so ago. Maybe you are on multiple boards and just forgot where you post things.

Anyway, I like SGA. Just not sure trading one of the Jays for him accomplishes anything more than changing around the seats on the deck of the Titanic. The more I watch this team this year, the more I am convinced the problem isn't the Jays, it's everyone else surrounding the Jays that's the problem.

Why do you care?

Oh I don't care. I just thought it kinda strange. Sort of like:

You go down to your local bar, all your friends and locals are down there too. Your friend the bartender is with you and you're all goofing around. Then I guy that's been there once or twice before comes in and says to turn on the central TV to the Bruins game because everyone there knows he likes to watch the Bruins when he comes in. All of the regulars, the locals and the bartender look over and are like: "What?"

It's no biggie, I just thought it strange.

Sure, you don’t care at all. We’ll, maybe I don’t care that you think it’s your bar, Nick.

[pokeKingCurtis]

Adding a third piece wouldn’t be a problem IMHO.  We have enough assets that we could pull one of those three picks + three pick swaps kinda setups like Milwaukee used to get Jrue.

But to be perfectly candid, I’m not convinced we’re even close enough to make a move like that at this point.  At some point these dudes need to show us that it’s worth going for it with them.  Because the last year and a half say that it isn’t.

Bingo. is adding one player going to take them from utter mediocrity to championship contender?

I think the following question is still very much out there: should the Cs be building around Tatum and Brown? or should they be using Brown and / or Tatum to build something else?

Tatum and Brown aren't the problem with this roster. Outside of those two you have a couple of 6th men, a couple back up centers and a G league team.

Adding a legit third offensive option would make a huge difference. We are way too easy to game plan against.

How about hHorford and Schroeder. Schroeder was third banana on those Lakers

It's a bit of both.  But just let the Jay's grow and find a good third banana

Schroeder is a sixth man. Third banana didn't work for him with the fakers. So is Smart, love him but he's not a starting pg. At this stage, Horford is a backup center. As is Williams.

We do have better role players than last season, it's up to the Jay's to lift them. Should have a better record than doncic.

But I'll be patient.

[Surferdad]

The more I watch this team this year, the more I am convinced the problem isn't the Jays, it's everyone else surrounding the Jays that's the problem.

I agree with this, and I understand everyone else being frustrated, but the situation isn’t (or should not be) unexpected.

I expected this team to be a couple of games over .500 at the New Year and then go on a run the 2nd half of the season.

Why?
1- We have a rookie coach and a new team built around Tatum and Brown. As much as people want to claim this team has been mediocre since 2019, sorry, this is a different team. It’s not the 2020-2021 team.
2- The Celtics started the season playing more road games than home games. In the NBA the home team usually wins. Even the best teams are just a little over .500 on the road. It is a clear recipe for a .500 record.
3- They just finished a brutal west coast trip with a losing record. The Celtics seldom do well on West Coast trips, and this one featured all the top teams outside of GSW, while missing our 2nd best player. I was hoping for 2-3, but not surprised at 1-4.
4- We are playing without our 2nd best player. People were commenting that Brown looked like a poor man’s MJ after the 1st game and was better than Tatum. This team can’t afford to lose that level of talent and win.
5- The schedule gets markedly easier after New Years. They’re playing a front loaded schedule. They will have time to regroup and make a run the second half once the schedule is easier.
6- This year’s team was always going to be about how far Jaylen and Jaysun could take them. They don’t have much room for error and playing so many games without Brown isn’t going to result in a winning record. I was expecting 3-4 more wins at this point, but with Jaylen injured, they are right where I expected them to be.

The things I didn’t expect:
1- Ime to run Horford into the ground. He’s been playing well, but he looked old and tired in LA.
2- Ime to have such a short rotation. I expected to see more of Nesmith, Pritchard and Freedom. Enes has been getting some run lately, but Ime seems to be stuck on “The number of the rotation shall be 8. It shall not be 9 or 10, neither 6 nor 7, but 8. 8 players shall be the number of the rotation and 8 shall be the number that play. Only 8, no more, no less.”
3- Nesmith and Pritchard both looked great in summer league, but underwhelming when they get playing time. Payton had a face mask after getting injured that may have disrupted his shot, but he doesn’t look like the playmaker he was in summer league. Fortunately we have Schröder ahead of him. Nesmith has been more disappointing because his intended skill set is needed and unlike Payton, there’s really no one blocking him but himself. Romeo has been looking okay, but I was expecting him to start learning how to finish at the rim by now. At least he’s contributing.
4- Brown to miss so many games. I was actually a little concerned about his high flying dunks earlier in the season and thought he should dial it back a little. Oh well, too late. He still has plenty of time to turn things around but it’s putting too much on Tatum to carry the team.
5- I was hoping Smart would not regress back to chucking up shots trying to be the number 2 in Brown’s absence, but here we are. I trust Schröder, Richardson and Langford more in that role, although none of them should be #2 either.

TLDR: there is a podcast in the sidebar every day linked to [The dawn of the J’s era[/b]. Sadly it seems like most of this forum wants to bury it before it’s even begun. Until Brown is back healthy we have no idea what this team can do, but Ime has to figure a few things out too.

Excellent post, feel free to re-post on the "non-trade ideas" thread
https://forum.celticsstrong.com/index.php?topic=105695.0

[CBS_Take a Report]

To the original poster’s question: getting the 3rd star is going to take patience. We have our core team signed through 2023/24 in Robert Williams III, Marcus Smart, Jaylen Brown and Jayson Tatum. If you look at the project team salary cap, these are the only 4 we are contractually committed to with team options on Grant Williams, Payton Pritchard and Aaron Nesmith. Without the latter (Williams/Pritchard/Nesmith) it is roughly $92m in guaranteed contracts.

Team payroll will scale to 144 luxury tax in that same year (2023/24). So we have $52m in available cap space under the luxury tax apron that can take us to the limit before repeater tax.

So this is a game of patience and health. I feel similar things… I’m sick of seeing this team hover. But we are on a 3 year path to truly competing. And the 3rd star should come into that core mix above and get us there. It is also possible that the core group above doesn’t exist moving forward. As we will need to acquire players to go to the tax apron.

Jayson and Jaylen are not the problem on this team. They are the only bright spots quite honestly (even with JB’s fragility and JT’s immaturity in terms of ISO).