Indiana moving toward rebuild, open to trade talks on LeVert, Sabonis, Turner

[celticsclay]

I agree that some of the absolute whiffs with later picks like Yabu, Hunter, Zizic did hurt us and there were a reasonable amount of rotation players he should have gotten with at least one of those picks. I am a bit surprised you would rather have Warren than Smart at this point especially given Warren has basically been out the last year and a half. He is obviously a better offensive player, but we probably need perimeter defense more than we do additional scoring with our teams the last 3-4 years (brown, tatum, rozier, kemba, hayward, morris all wanting too many shots already.

What exactly was the proposed George trade? Also do we have confidence he would have stayed here and not done the same thing he did to OKC? Seems similar to Leonard in that he really wanted to eventually end up in LA.

I wouldn't necessarily rather have Warren, was just pointing out that he has been a similar level of player to Smart so acting like Smart was a homerun can't miss draft pick isn't really accurate, especially with Randle and LaVine both in the lottery after him.

I think the George trade that was rumored to be on the table was Crowder, Smart, and a 1st (the one that became R. Williams) - some reports had an additional 1st or two being involved, but reportedly not the BKN one we used in the Irving trade or the LA/SAC pick (maybe Memphis and another Boston, as an example).  The trade was being discussed in June 2017 so it was before free agency opened.  As I recall, Indiana wanted the trade to be done, but Ainge didn't want to pull the trigger until after free agency started because he thought he could create more cap room by signing a player first and then making the trade.  When Ainge delayed, they moved on and traded him to OKC for Oladipo and the pick that was used for Sabonis.

I said it then and I still maintain, Ainge should have just pulled the trigger and acquired George and then figured out how to sign Hayward after the fact.  As it was, Boston had to drop some salary so had to trade Bradley for Morris.  I'm sure Boston could have just moved some salary without taking back Morris and still made the room to acquire Hayward.  And then still could have potentially acquired Irving with Bradley instead of Crowder.  I absolutely believe that even as good as Lebron was, the C's with a starting 5 of Irving, Hayward, George, Tatum, and Horford with Rozier, Brown, Baynes, Theis, etc. on the bench would have gotten by the Cavs that first season.  Wouldn't have beaten the Warriors that year, but certainly would have been set up very nicely if George re-upped in the summer 2018.  Even if Irving didn't stick around the following year, with George, Hayward, Tatum, Brown, Horford, and probably Rozier, the long term outlook would have been a lot better.

Not acquiring George was really the beginning of the end of the Ainge era.  It was indicative of his indecision that he had the last couple of years.  He just couldn't pull the trigger time and time again, and the one time he did he picked the absolute worst player to pull the trigger on (both in personality and on the court).

If that was the offer I agree he should have pulled the trigger. However it is hard for us to really have strong opinions on this stuff when we don’t know a lot. Like george had his eyes set on signing in LA and his agent communicated this. It is hard to give up smart, crowder and 2 or three first round picks for a guy that doesn’t want to play in Boston. Pacers also got a better deal than this so not sure I buy this was even real and not just a loose rumor.

[greg683x]

I haven’t seen Kendrick Perkins, Leon Powe, or Glen Davis mentioned.

None of them made an all star team but all of those guys were solid contributors on championship teams, which is what you would want from picks outside of the lottery.

Yes he whiffed on more recent picks in the back half of the first round but Danny had so many picks hoarded that he had to take gambles on players that in some cases wouldn’t take up a roster spot or salary the next season.  His crime was not pulling a trigger on trades for these picks.

Not for lack of trying... it takes 2 to tango.

I agree.  There were obviously deals he could have made but I’m sure he’d be taking pennies on the dollar.  I think he got stuck, the music stopped and he didn’t have a chair to sit in and had to do something with all the picks.  Then when you have the cap and roster spots on a team you’re trying to contend with to deal with you end up looking at players you can stash instead of best player available

[Moranis]

I agree that some of the absolute whiffs with later picks like Yabu, Hunter, Zizic did hurt us and there were a reasonable amount of rotation players he should have gotten with at least one of those picks. I am a bit surprised you would rather have Warren than Smart at this point especially given Warren has basically been out the last year and a half. He is obviously a better offensive player, but we probably need perimeter defense more than we do additional scoring with our teams the last 3-4 years (brown, tatum, rozier, kemba, hayward, morris all wanting too many shots already.

What exactly was the proposed George trade? Also do we have confidence he would have stayed here and not done the same thing he did to OKC? Seems similar to Leonard in that he really wanted to eventually end up in LA.

I wouldn't necessarily rather have Warren, was just pointing out that he has been a similar level of player to Smart so acting like Smart was a homerun can't miss draft pick isn't really accurate, especially with Randle and LaVine both in the lottery after him.

I think the George trade that was rumored to be on the table was Crowder, Smart, and a 1st (the one that became R. Williams) - some reports had an additional 1st or two being involved, but reportedly not the BKN one we used in the Irving trade or the LA/SAC pick (maybe Memphis and another Boston, as an example).  The trade was being discussed in June 2017 so it was before free agency opened.  As I recall, Indiana wanted the trade to be done, but Ainge didn't want to pull the trigger until after free agency started because he thought he could create more cap room by signing a player first and then making the trade.  When Ainge delayed, they moved on and traded him to OKC for Oladipo and the pick that was used for Sabonis.

I said it then and I still maintain, Ainge should have just pulled the trigger and acquired George and then figured out how to sign Hayward after the fact.  As it was, Boston had to drop some salary so had to trade Bradley for Morris.  I'm sure Boston could have just moved some salary without taking back Morris and still made the room to acquire Hayward.  And then still could have potentially acquired Irving with Bradley instead of Crowder.  I absolutely believe that even as good as Lebron was, the C's with a starting 5 of Irving, Hayward, George, Tatum, and Horford with Rozier, Brown, Baynes, Theis, etc. on the bench would have gotten by the Cavs that first season.  Wouldn't have beaten the Warriors that year, but certainly would have been set up very nicely if George re-upped in the summer 2018.  Even if Irving didn't stick around the following year, with George, Hayward, Tatum, Brown, Horford, and probably Rozier, the long term outlook would have been a lot better.

Not acquiring George was really the beginning of the end of the Ainge era.  It was indicative of his indecision that he had the last couple of years.  He just couldn't pull the trigger time and time again, and the one time he did he picked the absolute worst player to pull the trigger on (both in personality and on the court).

If that was the offer I agree he should have pulled the trigger. However it is hard for us to really have strong opinions on this stuff when we don’t know a lot. Like george had his eyes set on signing in LA and his agent communicated this. It is hard to give up smart, crowder and 2 or three first round picks for a guy that doesn’t want to play in Boston. Pacers also got a better deal than this so not sure I buy this was even real and not just a loose rumor.

At the time it was considered a much worse deal.  Oladipo was considered a bust, damaged goods, with a cap killing contract, and obviously no one knew how good Sabonis was going to be.  He was after all not even a top 10 pick. 

And it wasn't a loose rumor.  The basic pieces were confirmed by basically everyone it was Crowder and another starter (Smart or Bradley), and non-premium draft picks for George.  This SBNation piece talks about it and how that is a significantly better offer than Oladipo/Sabonis (and there are a lot of them out there that say something similar).  Obviously in retrospect, you take Dipo and Sabonis, but at the time it was considered a major coup for OKC to get out of Dipo's contract and get a significantly better player in the process, even if he might have left after a year (he did not).  https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2017/7/1/15907324/paul-george-trade-pacers-what-about-the-celtics

[todd_days_41]

Cs trade: Smart, Langford, 2 1st Round Picks
Cs receive: Sabonis, Wanamaker

LAC trade: Zubac, Winslow, Johnson
LAC receives: Smart, Martin

Indy trades: Sabonis, Wanamaker, Martin
Indy receives: Zubac, Winslow, Johnson, Langford, 2 Cs 1sts

[Csfan1984]

Id be okay with

Smart, TL, Langford and Juancho
for
Brogdon and Turner.

Feel Brogdon and Turner fit better than TL and Smart. Pacers don't lose out in talent much. They add Langford and cut salary in a year with the deal. I wouldn't add a 1st but 2nds are fine if needed.

I doubt a rebuilding team would have any interest in a 27-28 year old Marcus Smart who is still owed over $75 million over the next 4 seasons.

Its why my trade idea included Horford. If the deal is done before the draft, Horford could be cut giving some salary relief to Indy as they wouldn't have to take on any long term money

I think Smart can be flipped easier than Horford and TL is a nice young piece they could also flip or keep. If the Pacers want cap relief over flipping Smart to a third team that's fine but I'd think get talent they can flip for picks makes more sense.

[nickagneta]

Id be okay with

Smart, TL, Langford and Juancho
for
Brogdon and Turner.

Feel Brogdon and Turner fit better than TL and Smart. Pacers don't lose out in talent much. They add Langford and cut salary in a year with the deal. I wouldn't add a 1st but 2nds are fine if needed.

I doubt a rebuilding team would have any interest in a 27-28 year old Marcus Smart who is still owed over $75 million over the next 4 seasons.

Its why my trade idea included Horford. If the deal is done before the draft, Horford could be cut giving some salary relief to Indy as they wouldn't have to take on any long term money

I think Smart can be flipped easier than Horford and TL is a nice young piece they could also flip or keep. If the Pacers want cap relief over flipping Smart to a third team that's fine but I'd think get talent they can flip for picks makes more sense.

You're missing the point though.

Indiana wants to blow it up. Why would they trade, what is in your opinion, better players for worse players, only to have to then go and try to flip those worse players when they are trying to flip the better players right now? Just to get Timelord? A player you say they could also flip?

That seems counterproductive and like the only reason to make such a trade is to make Boston better not to make Indy better. Boston gets better and Indy is in the same situation they were in prior to the trade, trying to blow it up, but now having to do so with worse trade assets.

[Csfan1984]

Id be okay with

Smart, TL, Langford and Juancho
for
Brogdon and Turner.

Feel Brogdon and Turner fit better than TL and Smart. Pacers don't lose out in talent much. They add Langford and cut salary in a year with the deal. I wouldn't add a 1st but 2nds are fine if needed.

I doubt a rebuilding team would have any interest in a 27-28 year old Marcus Smart who is still owed over $75 million over the next 4 seasons.

Its why my trade idea included Horford. If the deal is done before the draft, Horford could be cut giving some salary relief to Indy as they wouldn't have to take on any long term money

I think Smart can be flipped easier than Horford and TL is a nice young piece they could also flip or keep. If the Pacers want cap relief over flipping Smart to a third team that's fine but I'd think get talent they can flip for picks makes more sense.

You're missing the point though.

Indiana wants to blow it up. Why would they trade, what is in your opinion, better players for worse players, only to have to then go and try to flip those worse players when they are trying to flip the better players right now? Just to get Timelord? A player you say they could also flip?

That seems counterproductive and like the only reason to make such a trade is to make Boston better not to make Indy better. Boston gets better and Indy is in the same situation they were in prior to the trade, trying to blow it up, but now having to do so with worse trade assets.

It's not counter productive it's like OKC's rebuild deals. They have moved assets for lesser ones but picked up small nuggets. Then they flip those guys for more then again and again. In this way they have growing returns and a dozen picks. If you are a small market team and building through the draft that is the way to rebuild. You bank on as many picks hitting as possible.

[celticsclay]

I agree that some of the absolute whiffs with later picks like Yabu, Hunter, Zizic did hurt us and there were a reasonable amount of rotation players he should have gotten with at least one of those picks. I am a bit surprised you would rather have Warren than Smart at this point especially given Warren has basically been out the last year and a half. He is obviously a better offensive player, but we probably need perimeter defense more than we do additional scoring with our teams the last 3-4 years (brown, tatum, rozier, kemba, hayward, morris all wanting too many shots already.

What exactly was the proposed George trade? Also do we have confidence he would have stayed here and not done the same thing he did to OKC? Seems similar to Leonard in that he really wanted to eventually end up in LA.

I wouldn't necessarily rather have Warren, was just pointing out that he has been a similar level of player to Smart so acting like Smart was a homerun can't miss draft pick isn't really accurate, especially with Randle and LaVine both in the lottery after him.

I think the George trade that was rumored to be on the table was Crowder, Smart, and a 1st (the one that became R. Williams) - some reports had an additional 1st or two being involved, but reportedly not the BKN one we used in the Irving trade or the LA/SAC pick (maybe Memphis and another Boston, as an example).  The trade was being discussed in June 2017 so it was before free agency opened.  As I recall, Indiana wanted the trade to be done, but Ainge didn't want to pull the trigger until after free agency started because he thought he could create more cap room by signing a player first and then making the trade.  When Ainge delayed, they moved on and traded him to OKC for Oladipo and the pick that was used for Sabonis.

I said it then and I still maintain, Ainge should have just pulled the trigger and acquired George and then figured out how to sign Hayward after the fact.  As it was, Boston had to drop some salary so had to trade Bradley for Morris.  I'm sure Boston could have just moved some salary without taking back Morris and still made the room to acquire Hayward.  And then still could have potentially acquired Irving with Bradley instead of Crowder.  I absolutely believe that even as good as Lebron was, the C's with a starting 5 of Irving, Hayward, George, Tatum, and Horford with Rozier, Brown, Baynes, Theis, etc. on the bench would have gotten by the Cavs that first season.  Wouldn't have beaten the Warriors that year, but certainly would have been set up very nicely if George re-upped in the summer 2018.  Even if Irving didn't stick around the following year, with George, Hayward, Tatum, Brown, Horford, and probably Rozier, the long term outlook would have been a lot better.

Not acquiring George was really the beginning of the end of the Ainge era.  It was indicative of his indecision that he had the last couple of years.  He just couldn't pull the trigger time and time again, and the one time he did he picked the absolute worst player to pull the trigger on (both in personality and on the court).

If that was the offer I agree he should have pulled the trigger. However it is hard for us to really have strong opinions on this stuff when we don’t know a lot. Like george had his eyes set on signing in LA and his agent communicated this. It is hard to give up smart, crowder and 2 or three first round picks for a guy that doesn’t want to play in Boston. Pacers also got a better deal than this so not sure I buy this was even real and not just a loose rumor.

At the time it was considered a much worse deal.  Oladipo was considered a bust, damaged goods, with a cap killing contract, and obviously no one knew how good Sabonis was going to be.  He was after all not even a top 10 pick. 

And it wasn't a loose rumor.  The basic pieces were confirmed by basically everyone it was Crowder and another starter (Smart or Bradley), and non-premium draft picks for George.  This SBNation piece talks about it and how that is a significantly better offer than Oladipo/Sabonis (and there are a lot of them out there that say something similar).  Obviously in retrospect, you take Dipo and Sabonis, but at the time it was considered a major coup for OKC to get out of Dipo's contract and get a significantly better player in the process, even if he might have left after a year (he did not).  https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2017/7/1/15907324/paul-george-trade-pacers-what-about-the-celtics

This article you sent says that Ainge did make the offer and pacers did not take it. It says it is not Ainge's fault the Pacers wanted a worse deal.  Isn't the criticism Ainge wouldn't pull the trigger, not that other teams refused his deals?

[BudweiserCeltic]

I haven’t seen Kendrick Perkins, Leon Powe, or Glen Davis mentioned.

None of them made an all star team but all of those guys were solid contributors on championship teams, which is what you would want from picks outside of the lottery.

Yes he whiffed on more recent picks in the back half of the first round but Danny had so many picks hoarded that he had to take gambles on players that in some cases wouldn’t take up a roster spot or salary the next season.  His crime was not pulling a trigger on trades for these picks.

Not for lack of trying... it takes 2 to tango.

I agree.  There were obviously deals he could have made but I’m sure he’d be taking pennies on the dollar.  I think he got stuck, the music stopped and he didn’t have a chair to sit in and had to do something with all the picks.  Then when you have the cap and roster spots on a team you’re trying to contend with to deal with you end up looking at players you can stash instead of best player available

Yes, the problem is that he DID make those type of offers, others wouldn't take it. The 2015 nba draft night comes to mind.

[dannyboy35]

Id be okay with

Smart, TL, Langford and Juancho
for
Brogdon and Turner.

Feel Brogdon and Turner fit better than TL and Smart. Pacers don't lose out in talent much. They add Langford and cut salary in a year with the deal. I wouldn't add a 1st but 2nds are fine if needed.

I doubt a rebuilding team would have any interest in a 27-28 year old Marcus Smart who is still owed over $75 million over the next 4 seasons.

Its why my trade idea included Horford. If the deal is done before the draft, Horford could be cut giving some salary relief to Indy as they wouldn't have to take on any long term money

I think Smart can be flipped easier than Horford and TL is a nice young piece they could also flip or keep. If the Pacers want cap relief over flipping Smart to a third team that's fine but I'd think get talent they can flip for picks makes more sense.

  I dint know who would take on Smart right now. Any ideas?

[Csfan1984]

Id be okay with

Smart, TL, Langford and Juancho
for
Brogdon and Turner.

Feel Brogdon and Turner fit better than TL and Smart. Pacers don't lose out in talent much. They add Langford and cut salary in a year with the deal. I wouldn't add a 1st but 2nds are fine if needed.

I doubt a rebuilding team would have any interest in a 27-28 year old Marcus Smart who is still owed over $75 million over the next 4 seasons.

Its why my trade idea included Horford. If the deal is done before the draft, Horford could be cut giving some salary relief to Indy as they wouldn't have to take on any long term money

I think Smart can be flipped easier than Horford and TL is a nice young piece they could also flip or keep. If the Pacers want cap relief over flipping Smart to a third team that's fine but I'd think get talent they can flip for picks makes more sense.

  I dint know who would take on Smart right now. Any ideas?

Mavs, Nets, Jazz, Hawks, and NYK

[Moranis]

Id be okay with

Smart, TL, Langford and Juancho
for
Brogdon and Turner.

Feel Brogdon and Turner fit better than TL and Smart. Pacers don't lose out in talent much. They add Langford and cut salary in a year with the deal. I wouldn't add a 1st but 2nds are fine if needed.

I doubt a rebuilding team would have any interest in a 27-28 year old Marcus Smart who is still owed over $75 million over the next 4 seasons.

Its why my trade idea included Horford. If the deal is done before the draft, Horford could be cut giving some salary relief to Indy as they wouldn't have to take on any long term money

I think Smart can be flipped easier than Horford and TL is a nice young piece they could also flip or keep. If the Pacers want cap relief over flipping Smart to a third team that's fine but I'd think get talent they can flip for picks makes more sense.

  I dint know who would take on Smart right now. Any ideas?

Mavs, Nets, Jazz, Hawks, and NYK

Warriors, Lakers, Clippers.  Probably a bunch of others.  Now the real question is at what valuation would they take Smart and that is a much more difficult question to answer.