Author Topic: Which two players make the Celtics better  (Read 4178 times)

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Re: Which two players make the Celtics better
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2021, 12:34:12 PM »

Offline CFAN38

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My first reaction was Lonzo and Ayton for reasons already mentioned - defensive capabilities and low usage complementary offensive games.

But I quickly changed face and decided to go with Trae Young and John Collins instead. Despite the defensive frailties and the diminished returns on offense from having too many guys who need the ball ... this team would still be better.

G - Trae Young
F - Jaylen
F - Tatum
F - John Collins
C - Horford

That team is absolutely unguardable. There is no way to stop that team. I do not care that it has some defensive weaknesses, it's offense is simply unstoppable.

Whatever you lose on defense, you are still gaining more on offense. It is a net positive.

I had the same thoughts about the offensive dominance but changed my mind because I think having 4 young guys who all expect to be 20+ ppg scores is a problem. Brown is likely forced into a 3rd/4th option role and would not be content. 
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Re: Which two players make the Celtics better
« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2021, 12:52:59 PM »

Offline droopdog7

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Depends on whether you feel nosatalgic about the Jays.  Trae, as I been saying for a while, might be better than both of them.  Even if you don't agree, he'd still dominate the ball and, would not be the best fit for Tatum but less so for Brown (who I think would be fine with Trae).

The Ayton-Ball combo assures that Tatum and Brown are the primary ball handlers and scorers.

Re: Which two players make the Celtics better
« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2021, 01:54:42 PM »

Offline 18isGREATERthan72

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Depends on whether you feel nosatalgic about the Jays.  Trae, as I been saying for a while, might be better than both of them.  Even if you don't agree, he'd still dominate the ball and, would not be the best fit for Tatum but less so for Brown (who I think would be fine with Trae).

The Ayton-Ball combo assures that Tatum and Brown are the primary ball handlers and scorers.

Trae Young is only better than both of them if you close your eyes for half the game.  I also think Tatum is vastly better than Trae.  Offensively Trae is slightly better than Tatum (mostly because of his ability to create assists for others, since Tatum is a more efficient scorer) but Tatum can and has been a player who can defend.  I know he probably took a step back this season on the defensive side, but the entire team did.  Tatum has shown the ability to be very disruptive on defense.

The reason the Hawks are still in the post season and the Celtics aren't is due to them having an extremely balanced roster after Trae.  They've got like 7 or 8 double digit scoring threats.

If I could pick between Trae / Collins and Ball / Ayton, I would easily pick Ball / Ayton.  I think Ball is the perfect PG for our roster with Tatum and Brown, and Ayton is a growing presence in the middle.  A Ball / Ayton addition would make the Celtics a very good offensive team, and a top 3 defensive team as well.

Re: Which two players make the Celtics better
« Reply #18 on: June 29, 2021, 03:21:32 PM »

Offline liam

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Can I have Giannis and Steph added to our team?

Re: Which two players make the Celtics better
« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2021, 04:05:34 PM »

Offline droopdog7

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Depends on whether you feel nosatalgic about the Jays.  Trae, as I been saying for a while, might be better than both of them.  Even if you don't agree, he'd still dominate the ball and, would not be the best fit for Tatum but less so for Brown (who I think would be fine with Trae).

The Ayton-Ball combo assures that Tatum and Brown are the primary ball handlers and scorers.

Trae Young is only better than both of them if you close your eyes for half the game.  I also think Tatum is vastly better than Trae.  Offensively Trae is slightly better than Tatum (mostly because of his ability to create assists for others, since Tatum is a more efficient scorer) but Tatum can and has been a player who can defend.  I know he probably took a step back this season on the defensive side, but the entire team did.  Tatum has shown the ability to be very disruptive on defense.

The reason the Hawks are still in the post season and the Celtics aren't is due to them having an extremely balanced roster after Trae.  They've got like 7 or 8 double digit scoring threats.

If I could pick between Trae / Collins and Ball / Ayton, I would easily pick Ball / Ayton.  I think Ball is the perfect PG for our roster with Tatum and Brown, and Ayton is a growing presence in the middle.  A Ball / Ayton addition would make the Celtics a very good offensive team, and a top 3 defensive team as well.
Trae is significantly better offensively than either Jay.  He's an incredible scorer AND playmaker, which is significantly more important than anything that can be accomplished on defense, which for the most part is negligible.  Trae makes others better, which is something that both Jay was still working into their game.

Re: Which two players make the Celtics better
« Reply #20 on: June 29, 2021, 04:23:35 PM »

Offline td450

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Depends on whether you feel nosatalgic about the Jays.  Trae, as I been saying for a while, might be better than both of them.  Even if you don't agree, he'd still dominate the ball and, would not be the best fit for Tatum but less so for Brown (who I think would be fine with Trae).

The Ayton-Ball combo assures that Tatum and Brown are the primary ball handlers and scorers.

Trae Young is only better than both of them if you close your eyes for half the game.  I also think Tatum is vastly better than Trae.  Offensively Trae is slightly better than Tatum (mostly because of his ability to create assists for others, since Tatum is a more efficient scorer) but Tatum can and has been a player who can defend.  I know he probably took a step back this season on the defensive side, but the entire team did.  Tatum has shown the ability to be very disruptive on defense.

The reason the Hawks are still in the post season and the Celtics aren't is due to them having an extremely balanced roster after Trae.  They've got like 7 or 8 double digit scoring threats.

If I could pick between Trae / Collins and Ball / Ayton, I would easily pick Ball / Ayton.  I think Ball is the perfect PG for our roster with Tatum and Brown, and Ayton is a growing presence in the middle.  A Ball / Ayton addition would make the Celtics a very good offensive team, and a top 3 defensive team as well.
Trae is significantly better offensively than either Jay.  He's an incredible scorer AND playmaker, which is significantly more important than anything that can be accomplished on defense, which for the most part is negligible.  Trae makes others better, which is something that both Jay was still working into their game.

He is a talented, fun passer, but I always discount that some when its someone who must always dominate the ball, and he really dominates the ball.

Go take a look at his actual stats and get back to me on the rest of it. I think he's getting too much credit. Atlanta has a deep team with quite a bit of talent and they have been very lucky in how the playoffs played out. I'm not a fan of his.

He is very skilled and perhaps some day he will become efficient enough to become a very poor man's Steph Curry, but he's not that yet. His shooting numbers are much closer to Marcus Smart's than Tatum or Brown.

Re: Which two players make the Celtics better
« Reply #21 on: June 29, 2021, 05:08:22 PM »

Offline BoulderMike

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Respectfully, and not being a homer, but I don't think many people in the NBA would agree with this statement: "Trae is significantly better offensively than either Jay."

Significantly better than Tatum? 

I think some would say he is better while others (including myself) would say Tatum is better.  I think only a very small number of people would say Trae is significantly better than Tatum.

Re: Which two players make the Celtics better
« Reply #22 on: June 29, 2021, 05:13:21 PM »

Offline Who

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Depends on whether you feel nosatalgic about the Jays.  Trae, as I been saying for a while, might be better than both of them.  Even if you don't agree, he'd still dominate the ball and, would not be the best fit for Tatum but less so for Brown (who I think would be fine with Trae).

The Ayton-Ball combo assures that Tatum and Brown are the primary ball handlers and scorers.

Trae Young is only better than both of them if you close your eyes for half the game.  I also think Tatum is vastly better than Trae.  Offensively Trae is slightly better than Tatum (mostly because of his ability to create assists for others, since Tatum is a more efficient scorer) but Tatum can and has been a player who can defend.  I know he probably took a step back this season on the defensive side, but the entire team did.  Tatum has shown the ability to be very disruptive on defense.

The reason the Hawks are still in the post season and the Celtics aren't is due to them having an extremely balanced roster after Trae.  They've got like 7 or 8 double digit scoring threats.

If I could pick between Trae / Collins and Ball / Ayton, I would easily pick Ball / Ayton.  I think Ball is the perfect PG for our roster with Tatum and Brown, and Ayton is a growing presence in the middle.  A Ball / Ayton addition would make the Celtics a very good offensive team, and a top 3 defensive team as well.
Trae is significantly better offensively than either Jay.  He's an incredible scorer AND playmaker, which is significantly more important than anything that can be accomplished on defense, which for the most part is negligible.  Trae makes others better, which is something that both Jay was still working into their game.

He is a talented, fun passer, but I always discount that some when its someone who must always dominate the ball, and he really dominates the ball.

Go take a look at his actual stats and get back to me on the rest of it. I think he's getting too much credit. Atlanta has a deep team with quite a bit of talent and they have been very lucky in how the playoffs played out. I'm not a fan of his.

He is very skilled and perhaps some day he will become efficient enough to become a very poor man's Steph Curry, but he's not that yet. His shooting numbers are much closer to Marcus Smart's than Tatum or Brown.

Trae Young should not be compared to Steph Curry.

Trae is a one-man offense. He should be compared to other players who played in that style. Like James Harden in Houston. LeBron at various points in his career. The closest PGs (players at his position) are Steve Nash and CP3 although both do so in different ways.

The freakish long range 3s I just view as a way or necessity of being for such a small physically frail PG. He needs to create that extra space for his driving game. He uses those long 3s to force the defenses further out so that he can create off the dribble (his best skill) in order to either (1) get to the rim and actually have a make-able shot (2) force the help to kick it to an open teammate for an easier score.

Trae is a high volume scorer & high volume playmaker. Nash was more of a medium volume scorer & high volume playmaker. CP3 was above average volume scorer & high volume playmaker.

If you go all the way back to the 60s, you could point to Oscar Robertson as a PG who was both a high volume scorer & high volume playmaker. A different method used due to his physical size. More like LeBron than these smaller guards.

My point is that Trae is very unusual. His combination of skills are rare. Do not pigeon hole him to a Steph Curry / 3 point accuracy. Those are not even his main skills. It his driving & playmaking that are his primary skills. His shooting is the skill he needs to open it up -- to enable / enhance those skills.

Steph is a different player again. Half PG half Reggie Miller (off ball SG). Steph is a freak in his own way. He has very good on-ball skills and elite off ball skills. No other PG in the league has shown themselves to be able to play off ball the way Steph does. And because of that he can enable others more room to express themselves (something Trae also cannot do) because they have more time on the ball while Steph is running off screens. Very different styles.

Both take long 3s and lots of 3s but still play very different styles and accomplish their offense impact in different ways.

Re: Which two players make the Celtics better
« Reply #23 on: June 29, 2021, 05:18:05 PM »

Offline droopdog7

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Depends on whether you feel nosatalgic about the Jays.  Trae, as I been saying for a while, might be better than both of them.  Even if you don't agree, he'd still dominate the ball and, would not be the best fit for Tatum but less so for Brown (who I think would be fine with Trae).

The Ayton-Ball combo assures that Tatum and Brown are the primary ball handlers and scorers.

Trae Young is only better than both of them if you close your eyes for half the game.  I also think Tatum is vastly better than Trae.  Offensively Trae is slightly better than Tatum (mostly because of his ability to create assists for others, since Tatum is a more efficient scorer) but Tatum can and has been a player who can defend.  I know he probably took a step back this season on the defensive side, but the entire team did.  Tatum has shown the ability to be very disruptive on defense.

The reason the Hawks are still in the post season and the Celtics aren't is due to them having an extremely balanced roster after Trae.  They've got like 7 or 8 double digit scoring threats.

If I could pick between Trae / Collins and Ball / Ayton, I would easily pick Ball / Ayton.  I think Ball is the perfect PG for our roster with Tatum and Brown, and Ayton is a growing presence in the middle.  A Ball / Ayton addition would make the Celtics a very good offensive team, and a top 3 defensive team as well.
Trae is significantly better offensively than either Jay.  He's an incredible scorer AND playmaker, which is significantly more important than anything that can be accomplished on defense, which for the most part is negligible.  Trae makes others better, which is something that both Jay was still working into their game.

He is a talented, fun passer, but I always discount that some when its someone who must always dominate the ball, and he really dominates the ball.

Go take a look at his actual stats and get back to me on the rest of it. I think he's getting too much credit. Atlanta has a deep team with quite a bit of talent and they have been very lucky in how the playoffs played out. I'm not a fan of his.

He is very skilled and perhaps some day he will become efficient enough to become a very poor man's Steph Curry, but he's not that yet. His shooting numbers are much closer to Marcus Smart's than Tatum or Brown.
I'm not a stat geek; at least not one to look into advanced stats and such.  But yes, Tatum is more efficient than Trae.  My guess is that it has some to do with Trae's propensity to take half court shots.  I would not call Trae Marcus Smart in that respect, but okay.

And you can't get on Trae's usage percentage and then say he's getting too much credit.  That team would be in the lottery were you to replace him with an average PG.  I guess you could say the same about the celtics but the point remains, Trae is the straw that stirs the drink.  The has a HUGE impact on the team and is, somewhat like prime Rondo, an savant on offense.  Manipulates the defense all game long.  That's very different from Tatum, who as I said is still learning to make others better.  And I know calling him MAYBE a poor man's Curry is a dig, but they very different players.  Curry dominates without the ball, and Trae with it. 

All that said, you do bring an important point about about dominating the ball.  Yes, his teams will always go as he goes.  The legitimate question is whether he is or will be good enough to lead a team to a title this way.  Obviously we don't know the answer to that question.

Re: Which two players make the Celtics better
« Reply #24 on: June 29, 2021, 09:29:16 PM »

Offline action781

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That was a great post by Who a couple up. TP!
2020 CelticsStrong All-2000s Draft -- Utah Jazz
 
Finals Starters:  Jason Kidd - Reggie Miller - PJ Tucker - Al Horford - Shaq
Bench:  Rajon Rondo - Trae Young - Marcus Smart - Jaylen Brown -  Peja Stojakovic - Jamal Mashburn - Carlos Boozer - Tristan Thompson - Mehmet Okur

Re: Which two players make the Celtics better
« Reply #25 on: June 29, 2021, 10:32:00 PM »

Offline gouki88

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I always find the comparisons between Trae and Steph a bit weird. The difference in 3 point shooting alone is enormous - career 34% for Young vs career 43% on more attempts
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
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