Smart the play-maker

[Androslav]

Marcus Smart always was a polarizing player.
Rarely someone makes you as happy and at times so frustrated.
I am curious to see what we collectively think of Marcus specifically as a playmaker.
Some find him good, some not.

Let's break it down:
Marcus was drafted as a PG some 4 and a half years back. He was PG on young USA teams.
He showed some flashes and with the PG spot being hard to master for young guards everyone was patient. He even shot the ball OK as a rook (34,2% per Cleaning the glass), contrary to his reputation at the time. Up to this date that proved to be his best shooting year.
As he also misses a great first step, to enable him easier penetration, and finishing touch, his offense came in question. We transferred him to the wing position in the long term.

Cleaning the glass Stats:
https://imgur.com/a/okO3rzk
https://imgur.com/a/RAegg5v

I like him as a passer, he has some vision and is unselfish. But being a ballhandler and not being a scorer in any sense of the word, takes away a lot of options for you. Defenses prepare much easier. One glaring stat is his TO%, over the last 2 years, he is in the 5th and 3rd percentile among wings, not guards, in that metric. Not being able to give your team at least the FGA, while you are the decision maker is truly disappointing.

     NBA average OFF. RTG      Smarts OFF. RTG    per Basketball refference
   2018-19      109.7                        101
   2017-18      108.6                        101
   2016-17      108.8                        102
   2015-16      106.4                         97
   2014-15      105.6                        106

I get that he is not in the league due to his offense. His defense is just amazing. Inspiring.
I'd share a trench with him if I had to choose a Celtic for that occasion.
But if you can't drive, finish in the traffic, shoot, dribble like crazy, you don't have amazing length and you turn the ball over a lot - I just don't see you as a good creator.

[GreenEnvy]

Clearly he is not a very effective primary ballhandler, but as a secondary (or even terciary) option so Kyrie/Horford/Hayward don’t have to do it every single time up the floor, he’s decent enough.

Obviously his worth is on the defensive end, and every shot/floater/drive we can only pray finds the bottom of the net. Playmaking, he seems to try to do just a little too much outside of his comfort zone, which is where the turnovers come in.

He’s relatively young at 24, so I think he still has some time to improve his shot to respectability, which will open up more for his playmaking.

[The Oracle]

The offensive rating numbers you used for Smart are not his per 100 numbers, they are a from a garbage metric on BBREF. 

Smart's TO% tells you exactly nothing about his value on offense, he is a pass first PG/Wing and naturally will have a higher number.  Comparing his TO% to most wings who predominately catch and shoot to him who creates and runs the offense a lot gives you faulty information.

I have defended Smart's abilities on offense for years on here, he has always been a solid playmaker.  Some of his struggles in prior years stem from not being surrounded by quality shooters, cutters, lob threats, spacing etc.  He has excellent court vision, finds cutters, makes hit ahead passes, etc. and should thrive when on the floor with lots of talent around him.

[adam8]

I think Marcus is at his best as a playmaker when he is playing with a big that can dive and finish on a PnR, he seems to find the bigs up high near the basket better than most of our ball handlers. Maybe Marcus and Williams will be a good pairing in a couple years need a big that stretches the floor vertically. His lack of finishing near the rim really limits his creativity though because the defense doesn't have to worry about him.

[Androslav]

The offensive rating numbers you used for Smart are not his per 100 numbers, they are a from a garbage metric on BBREF. 

Smart's TO% tells you exactly nothing about his value on offense, he is a pass first PG/Wing and naturally will have a higher number.  Comparing his TO% to most wings who predominately catch and shoot to him who creates and runs the offense a lot gives you faulty information.

I have defended Smart's abilities on offense for years on here, he has always been a solid playmaker.  Some of his struggles in prior years stem from not being surrounded by quality shooters, cutters, lob threats, spacing etc.  He has excellent court vision, finds cutters, makes hit ahead passes, etc. and should thrive when on the floor with lots of talent around him.

TO% is a good indicator of ballhandlers ability to run the offense. Last 2 years he is at about 17%, picture it as throwing a ball in the well every 6th possession, a lot. The stat is even more telling when combined with players usage rate. His career USG% is at 17,5%. That is like a 4th most used option on a team, which is fairly low. Considering he turns it over a lot for a below average usage it means he isn't best suited for that role. For example, imagine if he had even more offensive responsibility, say 20-22%, his TO% would increase even further.

"He should thrive when on the floor with lots of talent around him."
Everyone thrives surrounded by better players (I do as well), it is plainly easier to play when defenses see you like the least potent option. More space, clearer looks, better options to pass to, you pick your spots. Ask anyone, Tony Snell, BJ Armstrong, Marty Conlon, it is universal, unless all teammates have same skillsets.

Marcus is good to bring the ball after a rebound and then give it to KI, Al or others. He can post up well, he is strong and he finds the shooters and cutters, but how many of those plays will you run on a contender? A few, here and there. He does think and acts fast, that is undervalued quality. Also when you are worst shooter on the floor it kind of makes sense that you are with the ball, not spacing. It makes sense but it is far from ideal.

[The Oracle]

The offensive rating numbers you used for Smart are not his per 100 numbers, they are a from a garbage metric on BBREF. 

Smart's TO% tells you exactly nothing about his value on offense, he is a pass first PG/Wing and naturally will have a higher number.  Comparing his TO% to most wings who predominately catch and shoot to him who creates and runs the offense a lot gives you faulty information.

I have defended Smart's abilities on offense for years on here, he has always been a solid playmaker.  Some of his struggles in prior years stem from not being surrounded by quality shooters, cutters, lob threats, spacing etc.  He has excellent court vision, finds cutters, makes hit ahead passes, etc. and should thrive when on the floor with lots of talent around him.

TO% is a good indicator of ballhandlers ability to run the offense. Last 2 years he is at about 17%, picture it as throwing a ball in the well every 6th possession, a lot. The stat is even more telling when combined with players usage rate. His career USG% is at 17,5%. That is like a 4th most used option on a team, which is fairly low. Considering he turns it over a lot for a below average usage it means he isn't best suited for that role. For example, imagine if he had even more offensive responsibility, say 20-22%, his TO% would increase even further.

"He should thrive when on the floor with lots of talent around him."
Everyone thrives surrounded by better players (I do as well), it is plainly easier to play when defenses see you like the least potent option. More space, clearer looks, better options to pass to, you pick your spots. Ask anyone, Tony Snell, BJ Armstrong, Marty Conlon, it is universal, unless all teammates have same skillsets.

Marcus is good to bring the ball after a rebound and then give it to KI, Al or others. He can post up well, he is strong and he finds the shooters and cutters, but how many of those plays will you run on a contender? A few, here and there. He does think and acts fast, that is undervalued quality. Also when you are worst shooter on the floor it kind of makes sense that you are with the ball, not spacing. It makes sense but it is far from ideal.

That is simply you misunderstanding TO%.  TO% is the % of possessions used by an individual player that end in a turnover.  Possessions end in a turnover, a FGA or a trip to the line.  Players that do not shoot as much, nor get to the FT line naturally have a higher TO%.  It in no way means they are bad/ineffective PG's, look at Rondo, Rubio, Lonzo, Teodosic, Simmons and the like.  It doesn't necessarily mean they turn the ball over to much at all.  In fact with Smart on the floor the Celtics have pretty much turned the ball over less as a team throughout his entire career so far.

Smart's assist and turnover numbers per 36 minutes were very similar to I.T. in 16-17 and Irving last year, especially when you consider he was mostly coming off the bench and playing with somewhat inferior talent.  You do not have to be a high volume scorer to be a solid secondary playmaker or back up PG.

[Chris22]

I'd rather see Wanamaker running the second unit.

[Big333223]

He gambles but I like his vision and instincts. He seems to be the only one on the team who can run and pick and roll with a diving big.

[kmart12]

I brought this up, as well as others, in another thread about him starting. I can't argue against the advanced stats (someone brought up that he had poor pick and roll stats last year), but the eye test suggests that he's a playmaker. Over the past five games he's averaging 5 assists and 1.2 turnovers a game, in about 27 minutes. That's pretty good considering how many playmakers we have already.

And again, you have to remember that the idea isn't to have him be the "primary" playmaker or whatever, the idea is that he can work alongside Kyrie to initiate offense in a way that someone like Jaylen simply can't at this point. That, in combination with his outstanding defense and energy, makes him a valuable asset to the starting lineup (or justifies his 25+ minutes per game).

[Celtics4ever]

I'd rather see Wanamaker running the second unit.

You must want to tank then....................

[Rosco917]

Marcus is a way better ball handler than Brown. He's a WAY better passer than Brown. His team BB IQ is much better too, and most importantly is he's just as good or better on defense.

No, he is not anywhere as athletic as Brown and he doesn't have the potential as a future scorer as Brown.

It's about chemistry...Kyrie likes playing with additional facilitators on the floor with him. (LeBron) He likes playing with veteran hardnose players that seldom make rookie mistakes too. Jaylen will be fine on the second unit, it's a good spot for him to develop.


 

[jambr380]

Marcus is a way better ball handler than Brown. He's a WAY better passer than Brown. His team BB IQ is much better too, and most importantly is he's just as good or better on defense.

No, he is not anywhere as athletic as Brown and he doesn't have the potential as a future scorer as Brown.

It's about chemistry...Kyrie likes playing with additional facilitators on the floor with him. (LeBron) He likes playing with veteran hardnose players that seldom make rookie mistakes too. Jaylen will be fine on the second unit, it's a good spot for him to develop.
 

I think the Kyrie comment has gone a little too far. The Cs played very well with 2nd year Brown and 1st year Tatum alongside Kyrie, Horford, and Baynes last year. All of a sudden we force Hayward into a starting position that he isn't ready for and it throws off the whole team. Then, we move Hayward to the bench and are unwilling to let Brown play the role he successfully played all last year. To me, that just doesn't seem fair.

Smart brings a lot of intangibles to the team and I guess if we are going to go with Morris over Baynes in the starting line-up, then I understand using a defensive-only player to offset that, but I would prefer to go back to last year's starting line-up...you know, the one we started off 16-1 with (we lost the first game with Hayward as a starter).

[blink]

Marcus is a way better ball handler than Brown. He's a WAY better passer than Brown. His team BB IQ is much better too, and most importantly is he's just as good or better on defense.

No, he is not anywhere as athletic as Brown and he doesn't have the potential as a future scorer as Brown.

It's about chemistry...Kyrie likes playing with additional facilitators on the floor with him. (LeBron) He likes playing with veteran hardnose players that seldom make rookie mistakes too. Jaylen will be fine on the second unit, it's a good spot for him to develop.
 

I think the Kyrie comment has gone a little too far. The Cs played very well with 2nd year Brown and 1st year Tatum alongside Kyrie, Horford, and Baynes last year. All of a sudden we force Hayward into a starting position that he isn't ready for and it throws off the whole team. Then, we move Hayward to the bench and are unwilling to let Brown play the role he successfully played all last year. To me, that just doesn't seem fair.

Smart brings a lot of intangibles to the team and I guess if we are going to go with Morris over Baynes in the starting line-up, then I understand using a defensive-only player to offset that, but I would prefer to go back to last year's starting line-up...you know, the one we started off 16-1 with (we lost the first game with Hayward as a starter).

Yeah, I don't see why the KI / Brown / Tatum / Horford / Baynes lineup couldn't be as good or better than last year?  That was our lineup until KI went out in April.

Frankly I am getting really tired of all the Brown bashing going on around here.  All the ills of the early season celtic woes shouldn't be lumped onto Brown.  It is just not logical nor is it based in reality.  It is based on everyone wants to blame someone for our bad start, but it is really on the team as a whole.

That said, Smart is playing really well so far starting.  Morris has had a great year so far, so he has earned some starts as well.  I have no problem leaving both in that role for a while to see how it goes.  But Brown started all last year for a reason.  GH is eventually going to be 100% healthy again.  We saw a glimpse of it last night.  I wouldn't be surprised if at some point sooner or later Brown / Hayward both are back in the starting lineup.