Kyrie is Staying if he wants a 5 year Deal LoL

[Big333223]

I think Irving’s game will age a lot better than the games of Westbrook and Wall.  He’s just so skilled.  I agree with Androslav that he’s not dependent on traditional speed, strength, and jumping  ability like Wall and Westbrook are.  He uses that Steve Nash athleticism that should age well.  His athleticism is based on intelligence, insane hand/eye coordination and balance to use change of pace and trickery to get by guys.  He isn’t a good passer but he should be able to score and shoot for a very long time.

That said, Moranis is right when he says how fragile Irving is.  I really never expect him to play 70 games in ANY season.  And there is always a good chance that he will miss the playoffs like he did last season.

The other side of that is, I'm not really sure how much Irving actually contributes to wins.  In the regular season, Boston was on a 4 win less pace without Irving then with him, and that includes the 15-2 unsustainable start to the season (Irving missed 1 of the wins).  If you take out that crazy 16-2 hot start (and I know you can't do that), Boston was actually better without Irving.  The Celtics made it to within 1 game of the NBA Finals without Irving playing a single minute in the playoffs.  The Cavs, without Irving, and all that turmoil and IT injury, won 1 less game and made it back to the NBA Finals. 

I have real concerns, Irving is an empty stats type of player.  He doesn't defend at all.  He doesn't pass well or rebound well for his position.  He doesn't get to the line much at all, especially for someone with the ball in his hand as much as he has it.  He isn't a great half court player, unless it is an ISO for him.  He is about as good handling the ball as anyone in history and is a very good shooter, but he really isn't a well rounded player at all.

It's stuff like this that raises my eyebrows. We can quibble about his defense and passing but Kyrie is one of the best half court scorers in the league with the ball and without.

[bopna]

surprised this thread is still alive...

KYRIE IS GETTING the MAX PERIOD.

[GreenShooter]

So, I didn't read through the whole thread but with the NBA making crazy money it may be a good idea for both Kyrie and the C's to give Kyrie a max (or whatever is allowed) contract for 2 years. He'll be 29 next summer and will still be 31 if he chooses to sign a short term deal, unless he gets five years with an opt out. This way we can position ourselves to sign (or trade for) someone like Anthony Davis in a year or two. I doubt it but maybe something better can be worked out if Kyrie takes a shorter term deal. I am no capologist so not sure if that is allowable.

[gouki88]

I think Irving’s game will age a lot better than the games of Westbrook and Wall.  He’s just so skilled.  I agree with Androslav that he’s not dependent on traditional speed, strength, and jumping  ability like Wall and Westbrook are.  He uses that Steve Nash athleticism that should age well.  His athleticism is based on intelligence, insane hand/eye coordination and balance to use change of pace and trickery to get by guys.  He isn’t a good passer but he should be able to score and shoot for a very long time.

That said, Moranis is right when he says how fragile Irving is.  I really never expect him to play 70 games in ANY season.  And there is always a good chance that he will miss the playoffs like he did last season.

The other side of that is, I'm not really sure how much Irving actually contributes to wins.  In the regular season, Boston was on a 4 win less pace without Irving then with him, and that includes the 15-2 unsustainable start to the season (Irving missed 1 of the wins).  If you take out that crazy 16-2 hot start (and I know you can't do that), Boston was actually better without Irving.  The Celtics made it to within 1 game of the NBA Finals without Irving playing a single minute in the playoffs.  The Cavs, without Irving, and all that turmoil and IT injury, won 1 less game and made it back to the NBA Finals. 

I have real concerns, Irving is an empty stats type of player.  He doesn't defend at all.  He doesn't pass well or rebound well for his position.  He doesn't get to the line much at all, especially for someone with the ball in his hand as much as he has it.  He isn't a great half court player, unless it is an ISO for him.  He is about as good handling the ball as anyone in history and is a very good shooter, but he really isn't a well rounded player at all.

It's stuff like this that raises my eyebrows. We can quibble about his defense and passing but Kyrie is one of the best half court scorers in the league with the ball and without.

Is that surprising though? So many of his criticisms of Irving are simply unfounded.
Harping on about his rebounding at every chance is particularly amusing

[Moranis]

I think Irving’s game will age a lot better than the games of Westbrook and Wall.  He’s just so skilled.  I agree with Androslav that he’s not dependent on traditional speed, strength, and jumping  ability like Wall and Westbrook are.  He uses that Steve Nash athleticism that should age well.  His athleticism is based on intelligence, insane hand/eye coordination and balance to use change of pace and trickery to get by guys.  He isn’t a good passer but he should be able to score and shoot for a very long time.

That said, Moranis is right when he says how fragile Irving is.  I really never expect him to play 70 games in ANY season.  And there is always a good chance that he will miss the playoffs like he did last season.

The other side of that is, I'm not really sure how much Irving actually contributes to wins.  In the regular season, Boston was on a 4 win less pace without Irving then with him, and that includes the 15-2 unsustainable start to the season (Irving missed 1 of the wins).  If you take out that crazy 16-2 hot start (and I know you can't do that), Boston was actually better without Irving.  The Celtics made it to within 1 game of the NBA Finals without Irving playing a single minute in the playoffs.  The Cavs, without Irving, and all that turmoil and IT injury, won 1 less game and made it back to the NBA Finals. 

I have real concerns, Irving is an empty stats type of player.  He doesn't defend at all.  He doesn't pass well or rebound well for his position.  He doesn't get to the line much at all, especially for someone with the ball in his hand as much as he has it.  He isn't a great half court player, unless it is an ISO for him.  He is about as good handling the ball as anyone in history and is a very good shooter, but he really isn't a well rounded player at all.

It's stuff like this that raises my eyebrows. We can quibble about his defense and passing but Kyrie is one of the best half court scorers in the league with the ball and without.

Is that surprising though? So many of his criticisms of Irving are simply unfounded.
Harping on about his rebounding at every chance is particularly amusing

I don't harp on it. I harp on his terrible defense. I merely point out he doesn't do much of anything well outside of scoring.  He is basically a taller version of Thomas and at least IT seemingly tried defensively his size was just prohibitive.

[nickagneta]

So, I didn't read through the whole thread but with the NBA making crazy money it may be a good idea for both Kyrie and the C's to give Kyrie a max (or whatever is allowed) contract for 2 years. He'll be 29 next summer and will still be 31 if he chooses to sign a short term deal, unless he gets five years with an opt out. This way we can position ourselves to sign (or trade for) someone like Anthony Davis in a year or two. I doubt it but maybe something better can be worked out if Kyrie takes a shorter term deal. I am no capologist so not sure if that is allowable.

After next year when Kyrie will opt out, he will be just 27, not 29. He would instantly reject a two year deal as all 5 years of his next contract will be in his prime.

[GreenShooter]

So, I didn't read through the whole thread but with the NBA making crazy money it may be a good idea for both Kyrie and the C's to give Kyrie a max (or whatever is allowed) contract for 2 years. He'll be 29 next summer and will still be 31 if he chooses to sign a short term deal, unless he gets five years with an opt out. This way we can position ourselves to sign (or trade for) someone like Anthony Davis in a year or two. I doubt it but maybe something better can be worked out if Kyrie takes a shorter term deal. I am no capologist so not sure if that is allowable.

After next year when Kyrie will opt out, he will be just 27, not 29. He would instantly reject a two year deal as all 5 years of his next contract will be in his prime.

Sorry, I meant he'd be 29 if he signed a two year deal...duh me!
Anyways, I was thinking he could sign something like Durant did. It would obviously have to be agreed to by both parties and maybe preferred by Kyrie. That's all I'm saying.

[tazzmaniac]

So, I didn't read through the whole thread but with the NBA making crazy money it may be a good idea for both Kyrie and the C's to give Kyrie a max (or whatever is allowed) contract for 2 years. He'll be 29 next summer and will still be 31 if he chooses to sign a short term deal, unless he gets five years with an opt out. This way we can position ourselves to sign (or trade for) someone like Anthony Davis in a year or two. I doubt it but maybe something better can be worked out if Kyrie takes a shorter term deal. I am no capologist so not sure if that is allowable.

After next year when Kyrie will opt out, he will be just 27, not 29. He would instantly reject a two year deal as all 5 years of his next contract will be in his prime.

Sorry, I meant he'd be 29 if he signed a two year deal...duh me!
Anyways, I was thinking he could sign something like Durant did. It would obviously have to be agreed to by both parties and maybe preferred by Kyrie. That's all I'm saying.

He could but he won't.  The risk of injury is too great.  Lebron and KD are very special cases. 

[Moranis]

So, I didn't read through the whole thread but with the NBA making crazy money it may be a good idea for both Kyrie and the C's to give Kyrie a max (or whatever is allowed) contract for 2 years. He'll be 29 next summer and will still be 31 if he chooses to sign a short term deal, unless he gets five years with an opt out. This way we can position ourselves to sign (or trade for) someone like Anthony Davis in a year or two. I doubt it but maybe something better can be worked out if Kyrie takes a shorter term deal. I am no capologist so not sure if that is allowable.

After next year when Kyrie will opt out, he will be just 27, not 29. He would instantly reject a two year deal as all 5 years of his next contract will be in his prime.

Sorry, I meant he'd be 29 if he signed a two year deal...duh me!
Anyways, I was thinking he could sign something like Durant did. It would obviously have to be agreed to by both parties and maybe preferred by Kyrie. That's all I'm saying.

He could but he won't.  The risk of injury is too great.  Lebron and KD are very special cases.

Yeah.  Irving is going to sign a max deal this summer given his injury concerns and the fact that the cap isn't projected to keep jumping all that much.  He will maximize his earning potential.  If he makes it through that next contract healthy, then he will still have time to cash in again.  Players like Durant and James who have generally been healthy can get away with a couple of years of short term contracts, before they cash in on the big long term deal (I would expect Durant to sign for 4 or 5 years next summer wherever that is, just like James just did).  A guy like Giannis, if he stays healthy through this contract, I could totally see doing the 1 year type thing, to get him to the 10 year vet, and then cashing in on the big long term deal at the end of his 20's or early 30's, especially if he leaves Milwaukee at the end of the contract (that also allows him to see if he really likes the new place and wants to commit long term). 

[Spicoli]

Kyrie is worth every penny of a max contract just based on entertainment value alone. My jaw drops a good 5 to 6 times a game when he plays, which is extraordinary. The only other guy who recently made my jaw drop that many times per game was prime Derrick Rose.

[Androslav]

Yeah, Boston will offer Irving a 5 year max.  I have concerns Boston will regret the contract long term, but it will be offered.  I have no idea if Irving will take the money.  He might, he might not, but it will be offered.

No 4 or 5-year max deal is without concerns.
It is a big long-term investment.
Eating your cap space.
Pushing you to luxury tax.

Wall's contract looks horrible. The extension hasn't kicked in yet.
Harden's deal looks scary. The extension hasn't kicked in yet.
Blake's deal looks horrible.
Westbrook's contract looks scary. The extension hasn't kicked in yet.
New Butler deal will look scary.

But out of this group, Kyrie is the only one with championship pedigree.
He is also the best shooter.
He also has the best handle (Harden would object)
He is also the least dependent on his athleticism.
And he is also the youngest.

If you want to compete in the finals for the long term you always have to roll the dice.

What if Curry becomes slow and gingery after another ankle injury?
Then he does. In the meantime, you sign him to a 5-year deal and you try to win the 3rd consecutive championship.

Irving has had multiple surgeries on his knee.  He has a history of missing significant portions of seasons as a result of injuries.  I also disagree about his athleticism.  That is what allows him to use his ball handling skills to get open.  once he loses a step, he won't be nearly as good as he is a poor passer and is not a good catch and shoot shooter (he uses his athleticism and handle to get open).  I can't see him transitioning all that well into a Jason Kidd type role.  Harden, Westbrook, and Wall are all much better passers than Irving is.  They will be able to find roles as playmakers if they lose their athleticism because they have better all around skills.  Curry could be in a wheelchair and still be able to hit 3 pointers.  He is just that good of a shooter. 

Now Irving is a great deal younger then those players, but those guys also aren't coming off an injury or multiple surgeries either.  They also, by and large, have been healthy and play the vast majority of their teams games every single season (Curry is obviously more injury prone then the others, but he did finish last year by playing and played in at least 78 regular season games in each of the prior 5 seasons before last year). 

I'd honestly be surprised if Irving was healthy for 70 games this season (in his 7 seasons he has only played in at least 70 games 3 times with his best at 75 - his other 4 seasons are 60, 59, 53, and 51).  This notion that a guy who has never been able to stay healthy is all of a sudden going to be healthy 8 years into his career after multiple knee surgeries seems very strange to me.  Irving is a walking injury and any team should be very concerned writing him an 188 million dollar check.  Boston will because they have to, but I absolutely think that is a contract that very very easily could haunt the Celtics.

Mo, I thought you knew...

John Wall:
https://www.nbcsports.com/washington/wizards/timeline-john-walls-injury-history-washington-wizards
Blake Griffin:
https://www.givemesport.com/1036152-blake-griffins-growing-injury-history-is-concerning
Russell Westbrook:
https://www.sbnation.com/2018/9/12/17851948/russell-westbrook-knee-injury-surgery-history-thunder
Jimmy Butler:
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2425981-jimmy-butler-injury-updates-on-bulls-stars-knee-and-return
https://www.si.com/nba/2018/02/24/minnesota-timberwolves-jimmy-butler-knee-injury-update

All sans Harden had a knee injury history, but as usual, you concentrated merely on your resentment toward KI as he left Cleveland for a much, much better situation.

I think you should respect the guy that gave your team their lone title and made the LBJ Cleveland return actually a possibility.
After all, Lebron needed 9 years to bring Cleveland a title, Kyrie did it in just 5.

[gouki88]

Yeah, Boston will offer Irving a 5 year max.  I have concerns Boston will regret the contract long term, but it will be offered.  I have no idea if Irving will take the money.  He might, he might not, but it will be offered.

No 4 or 5-year max deal is without concerns.
It is a big long-term investment.
Eating your cap space.
Pushing you to luxury tax.

Wall's contract looks horrible. The extension hasn't kicked in yet.
Harden's deal looks scary. The extension hasn't kicked in yet.
Blake's deal looks horrible.
Westbrook's contract looks scary. The extension hasn't kicked in yet.
New Butler deal will look scary.

But out of this group, Kyrie is the only one with championship pedigree.
He is also the best shooter.
He also has the best handle (Harden would object)
He is also the least dependent on his athleticism.
And he is also the youngest.

If you want to compete in the finals for the long term you always have to roll the dice.

What if Curry becomes slow and gingery after another ankle injury?
Then he does. In the meantime, you sign him to a 5-year deal and you try to win the 3rd consecutive championship.

Irving has had multiple surgeries on his knee.  He has a history of missing significant portions of seasons as a result of injuries.  I also disagree about his athleticism.  That is what allows him to use his ball handling skills to get open.  once he loses a step, he won't be nearly as good as he is a poor passer and is not a good catch and shoot shooter (he uses his athleticism and handle to get open).  I can't see him transitioning all that well into a Jason Kidd type role.  Harden, Westbrook, and Wall are all much better passers than Irving is.  They will be able to find roles as playmakers if they lose their athleticism because they have better all around skills.  Curry could be in a wheelchair and still be able to hit 3 pointers.  He is just that good of a shooter. 

Now Irving is a great deal younger then those players, but those guys also aren't coming off an injury or multiple surgeries either.  They also, by and large, have been healthy and play the vast majority of their teams games every single season (Curry is obviously more injury prone then the others, but he did finish last year by playing and played in at least 78 regular season games in each of the prior 5 seasons before last year). 

I'd honestly be surprised if Irving was healthy for 70 games this season (in his 7 seasons he has only played in at least 70 games 3 times with his best at 75 - his other 4 seasons are 60, 59, 53, and 51).  This notion that a guy who has never been able to stay healthy is all of a sudden going to be healthy 8 years into his career after multiple knee surgeries seems very strange to me.  Irving is a walking injury and any team should be very concerned writing him an 188 million dollar check.  Boston will because they have to, but I absolutely think that is a contract that very very easily could haunt the Celtics.

Mo, I thought you knew...

John Wall:
https://www.nbcsports.com/washington/wizards/timeline-john-walls-injury-history-washington-wizards
Blake Griffin:
https://www.givemesport.com/1036152-blake-griffins-growing-injury-history-is-concerning
Russell Westbrook:
https://www.sbnation.com/2018/9/12/17851948/russell-westbrook-knee-injury-surgery-history-thunder
Jimmy Butler:
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2425981-jimmy-butler-injury-updates-on-bulls-stars-knee-and-return
https://www.si.com/nba/2018/02/24/minnesota-timberwolves-jimmy-butler-knee-injury-update

All sans Harden had a knee injury history, but as usual, you concentrated merely on your resentment toward KI as he left Cleveland for a much, much better situation.

I think you should respect the guy that gave your team their lone title and made the LBJ Cleveland return actually a possibility.
After all, Lebron needed 9 years to bring Cleveland a title, Kyrie did it in just 5.

I really found it funny that Westbrook and Wall, two poor shooters who average 5 and 4 turnovers per game respectively, are more all around skilled than Kyrie Irving, arguably the best ball-handler the game has ever seen, who flirted with 50/40/90 at age 25 (ie last year) and averages a tad under 2.5 turnovers per game.

[Moranis]

Yeah, Boston will offer Irving a 5 year max.  I have concerns Boston will regret the contract long term, but it will be offered.  I have no idea if Irving will take the money.  He might, he might not, but it will be offered.

No 4 or 5-year max deal is without concerns.
It is a big long-term investment.
Eating your cap space.
Pushing you to luxury tax.

Wall's contract looks horrible. The extension hasn't kicked in yet.
Harden's deal looks scary. The extension hasn't kicked in yet.
Blake's deal looks horrible.
Westbrook's contract looks scary. The extension hasn't kicked in yet.
New Butler deal will look scary.

But out of this group, Kyrie is the only one with championship pedigree.
He is also the best shooter.
He also has the best handle (Harden would object)
He is also the least dependent on his athleticism.
And he is also the youngest.

If you want to compete in the finals for the long term you always have to roll the dice.

What if Curry becomes slow and gingery after another ankle injury?
Then he does. In the meantime, you sign him to a 5-year deal and you try to win the 3rd consecutive championship.

Irving has had multiple surgeries on his knee.  He has a history of missing significant portions of seasons as a result of injuries.  I also disagree about his athleticism.  That is what allows him to use his ball handling skills to get open.  once he loses a step, he won't be nearly as good as he is a poor passer and is not a good catch and shoot shooter (he uses his athleticism and handle to get open).  I can't see him transitioning all that well into a Jason Kidd type role.  Harden, Westbrook, and Wall are all much better passers than Irving is.  They will be able to find roles as playmakers if they lose their athleticism because they have better all around skills.  Curry could be in a wheelchair and still be able to hit 3 pointers.  He is just that good of a shooter. 

Now Irving is a great deal younger then those players, but those guys also aren't coming off an injury or multiple surgeries either.  They also, by and large, have been healthy and play the vast majority of their teams games every single season (Curry is obviously more injury prone then the others, but he did finish last year by playing and played in at least 78 regular season games in each of the prior 5 seasons before last year). 

I'd honestly be surprised if Irving was healthy for 70 games this season (in his 7 seasons he has only played in at least 70 games 3 times with his best at 75 - his other 4 seasons are 60, 59, 53, and 51).  This notion that a guy who has never been able to stay healthy is all of a sudden going to be healthy 8 years into his career after multiple knee surgeries seems very strange to me.  Irving is a walking injury and any team should be very concerned writing him an 188 million dollar check.  Boston will because they have to, but I absolutely think that is a contract that very very easily could haunt the Celtics.

Mo, I thought you knew...

John Wall:
https://www.nbcsports.com/washington/wizards/timeline-john-walls-injury-history-washington-wizards
Blake Griffin:
https://www.givemesport.com/1036152-blake-griffins-growing-injury-history-is-concerning
Russell Westbrook:
https://www.sbnation.com/2018/9/12/17851948/russell-westbrook-knee-injury-surgery-history-thunder
Jimmy Butler:
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2425981-jimmy-butler-injury-updates-on-bulls-stars-knee-and-return
https://www.si.com/nba/2018/02/24/minnesota-timberwolves-jimmy-butler-knee-injury-update

All sans Harden had a knee injury history, but as usual, you concentrated merely on your resentment toward KI as he left Cleveland for a much, much better situation.

I think you should respect the guy that gave your team their lone title and made the LBJ Cleveland return actually a possibility.
After all, Lebron needed 9 years to bring Cleveland a title, Kyrie did it in just 5.

I had a detailed response to this typed up, but I lost it.  But I have no idea why you brought up players I didn't mention, and the 3 I did, Wall, Harden, and Westbrook, have always been healthy for the playoffs, have generally played 75+ games, and generally had discreet one time injuries that took out parts of a season (I get Wall has had 2 of those, but in between he had 4 seasons where he missed 12 total games - that would be considered a good health year for Irving), but otherwise have been pictures of health.  That is nowhere near the same as Irving who has had just 1 season where he missed less than 10 games, and has missed entirely or large chunks of multiple playoff runs.  Just a different animal when talking about injuries. 

[liam]

Interesting:

https://nesn.com/2018/10/nba-rumors-kyrie-irving-anthony-davis-have-spoken-about-playing-in-boston-together/