Lowe: Something in the bloodstream of this Celtics team that is special

[seancally]

Just listening to the Zach Lowe podcast with Kevin Arnovitz, and Lowe says he'll write about this later, but that "there's something in the bloodstream of this Celtics team that is special."

Haven't finished the pod, article is not out, but I'll finish the thought for him: Institutional stability combined with a prioritization on winning. Yes, Brad Stevens too. But remember this?:

In 2015 the Celtics had the dubious option of squeaking into the playoffs (and being booted by Cleveland) or tanking juuuuust a little bit and sliding down into the lottery. We chose winning. Some were not happy and would have preferred a shot at the lottery - which yielded a few gems like Towns, Porzingis and Booker. We ended up with Terry Rozier at No. 16 and a 4-0 loss to the Cavs. Great - why bother, right?

Well, as I thought at the time, it's crucial to instill "winning" in a team as much and early as possible. Even if it's just an institutional thing and some of the players won't stick around forever. Even if it means getting smacked around by a superior team. I want the team that stares down that fork in the road and chooses winning culture over tanking and trying to skip to the front of the line.* We see that exact choice being played out right now, in this series.

Do you believe in the basketball gods?

*Look, there are situations when it makes sense to blow it up or even take a step back so you can take two steps forward - to be strategic. But choosing between pushing for the playoffs and sliding into the lottery, you gotta go for the playoffs. That's why we play!

[Donoghus]

Strong, stable culture & good coaching. 

Think its as simple as that.   The organization was also very smart about roster construction.  Got guys who complemented each other from a skill set standpoint.  You also have a stabilizing influence from Horford.

Think it just came together very well & you can point to Ainge & Stevens for that. 

[droopdog7]

Dare I say, team of destiny?

I kid, I kid.

[liam]

Strong, stable culture & good coaching. 

Think its as simple as that.   The organization was also very smart about roster construction.  Got guys who complemented each other from a skill set standpoint.  You also have a stabilizing influence from Horford.

Think it just came together very well & you can point to Ainge & Stevens for that.

That's the problem with the process. You just take BPA over and over again without thought to how the pieces fit. Then when you do try and chase a fit you trade Tatum and a pick for Fultz. When you draft Danny sought players thinking about playing winning basketball. The fixer's drafted and constructed  their roster like a fantasy team. Danny has been accumulating all of these moving switchable guys in a reaction to how the game is played. Philly just grabbed pieces with no thought to team building. The Sixers are built like and early 2000s team, with a big center and big point guard and the Celtics are built like a modern Golden State type of a team and that's what makes all the difference.

The most valuable players in the NBA right now are big scoring and defending switchable forwards. The Sixers have none of those guys. Toronto has OG Anunoby, but he's a rookie. Anunoby looks like the least fearful guy on that Toronto team. I love Anunoby.

The Celtics have Tatum, Brown, Morris, Hayward you could also call Al a forward that can switch and to a lesser extent Semi. Smart can also switch and defend forwards.Those guys are the most sought out and valuable guys in The NBA. That's why Golden State will beat the Rockets in the West. Golden states line up of death is 4 switchable forwards and Curry. We match up very well with that. The Celtics can put 4 forwards and Rozier on the floor to match up really well with Golden State.

[Big333223]

Anyone read the book The Captain Class by Sam Walker?

I picked it up after the author was on the Lowe Post a while back, actually. The author set out to see if there was any characteristic common to the greatest teams of all time across all sports. What he decided is that all of the greatest teams (based on his criteria) had their winningest stretches coincide with the arrival of a certain kind of captain.

First, yes, you need elite talent but after that you need a captain like the ones he describes in the book. Typically not the most talented player, dedicated beyond reason, someone who pushes the envelope to the point of almost breaking the rules, unafraid to be combative even with teammates and coaches but always in service of getting better.

This is all to say that the captain he describes is, in just about every way, Marcus Smart. Smart probably isn't, alone, responsible for the mentality Lowe is talking about because I think Ainge and his team have targeted individuals like Smart (hard working, dedicated, resilient) as much as possible but I do think the kind of leadership someone like Smart brings to the locker room matters.

The book was pretty good. Not that well written but well researched.

[seancally]

Anyone read the book The Captain Class by Sam Walker?

I picked it up after the author was on the Lowe Post a while back, actually. The author set out to see if there was any characteristic common to the greatest teams of all time across all sports. What he decided is that all of the greatest teams (based on his criteria) had their winningest stretches coincide with the arrival of a certain kind of captain.

First, yes, you need elite talent but after that you need a captain like the ones he describes in the book. Typically not the most talented player, dedicated beyond reason, someone who pushes the envelope to the point of almost breaking the rules, unafraid to be combative even with teammates and coaches but always in service of getting better.

This is all to say that the captain he describes is, in just about every way, Marcus Smart. Smart probably isn't, alone, responsible for the mentality Lowe is talking about because I think Ainge and his team have targeted individuals like Smart (hard working, dedicated, resilient) as much as possible but I do think the kind of leadership someone like Smart brings to the locker room matters.

The book was pretty good. Not that well written but well researched.

Actually I think I listened to that, too. I always check out Lowe's podcasts.

Would you say that "captain" is Smart and not Brad Stevens? (Under the criteria defined in that book.)

[bogg]

In 2015 the Celtics had the dubious option of squeaking into the playoffs (and being booted by Cleveland) or tanking juuuuust a little bit and sliding down into the lottery. We chose winning. Some were not happy and would have preferred a shot at the lottery - which yielded a few gems like Towns, Porzingis and Booker. We ended up with Terry Rozier at No. 16 and a 4-0 loss to the Cavs. Great - why bother, right?

I understand that you're not making this argument yourself, but while it's brought up - this line of thinking always bothered me because it struck me as people trying to have it both ways. Once you bring in a good coach, and you give him good players that play hard, they're going to go out there and try to win games. You can't enjoy good times like last year's run to the ECF, the signings of Horford/Hayward, and the young guys developing in part because of the culture they're brought up in while simultaneously complaining about the winning that made that all possible. Hell, supposedly the Suns were very close to an Irving trade last summer until he found out Boston was an option and Kyrie scared off other bidders because he wanted to go to a team ready to contend.

Ainge could have very easily sat on the Rondo/Jeff Green pairing, let them half-ass it through the end of their contracts, and stacked additional lottery picks, but you probably don't get the trades/free agent signings of the past few years and the winning seasons that came with them.

[johnnygreen]

I think that I mentioned this in another thread, but doesn’t Danny believe in Brain Typing when it comes to drafting players?

[Big333223]

Anyone read the book The Captain Class by Sam Walker?

I picked it up after the author was on the Lowe Post a while back, actually. The author set out to see if there was any characteristic common to the greatest teams of all time across all sports. What he decided is that all of the greatest teams (based on his criteria) had their winningest stretches coincide with the arrival of a certain kind of captain.

First, yes, you need elite talent but after that you need a captain like the ones he describes in the book. Typically not the most talented player, dedicated beyond reason, someone who pushes the envelope to the point of almost breaking the rules, unafraid to be combative even with teammates and coaches but always in service of getting better.

This is all to say that the captain he describes is, in just about every way, Marcus Smart. Smart probably isn't, alone, responsible for the mentality Lowe is talking about because I think Ainge and his team have targeted individuals like Smart (hard working, dedicated, resilient) as much as possible but I do think the kind of leadership someone like Smart brings to the locker room matters.

The book was pretty good. Not that well written but well researched.

Actually I think I listened to that, too. I always check out Lowe's podcasts.

Would you say that "captain" is Smart and not Brad Stevens? (Under the criteria defined in that book.)

Walker talks about this person as being a player. Coaches can do a lot but they can never be an on-court example and can't sacrifice in the same way.

[Chris22]

I think that I mentioned this in another thread, but doesn’t Danny believe in Brain Typing when it comes to drafting players?

Danny drafted athletic players with long arms.

We are quicker than the Sixers. They can't cover us. No magic formula there.

[Quetzalcoatl]

I think that sounds good in theory, but literally our last championship was following a year where we had the same choice and tanked.  Our core now is based on trading our best players for lotto picks and cap room.  I think it's better put as you need to put good executives and coaching in place, then trust their decision making. 

[LarBrd33]

Just listening to the Zach Lowe podcast with Kevin Arnovitz, and Lowe says he'll write about this later, but that "there's something in the bloodstream of this Celtics team that is special."

Haven't finished the pod, article is not out, but I'll finish the thought for him: Institutional stability combined with a prioritization on winning. Yes, Brad Stevens too. But remember this?:

In 2015 the Celtics had the dubious option of squeaking into the playoffs (and being booted by Cleveland) or tanking juuuuust a little bit and sliding down into the lottery. We chose winning. Some were not happy and would have preferred a shot at the lottery - which yielded a few gems like Towns, Porzingis and Booker. We ended up with Terry Rozier at No. 16 and a 4-0 loss to the Cavs. Great - why bother, right?

Well, as I thought at the time, it's crucial to instill "winning" in a team as much and early as possible. Even if it's just an institutional thing and some of the players won't stick around forever. Even if it means getting smacked around by a superior team. I want the team that stares down that fork in the road and chooses winning culture over tanking and trying to skip to the front of the line.* We see that exact choice being played out right now, in this series.

Do you believe in the basketball gods?

*Look, there are situations when it makes sense to blow it up or even take a step back so you can take two steps forward - to be strategic. But choosing between pushing for the playoffs and sliding into the lottery, you gotta go for the playoffs. That's why we play!

I remember that 2015 run.  I know Ainge was basically on record at the time as saying it was better to get a top pick than make the playoffs and get swept. 

Normally, I think I would have been really annoyed by that hopeless late-season rally, but I wasn't for a key reason...

Prior to that run, there were lots of rumors bubbling that Brad Stevens might bail for a prestige NCAA job.  Bill Simmons talked about it a few times on his podcast.  We were losing a ton and the idea was that if a big time NCAA program came calling, Brad would probably be gone.

So part of me felt like we needed to win games just to make some progress and keep Brad around. 

The last couple weeks of the season were the difference between picking 9th and 16th.  Clearly Ainge wasn't sold on that range or he wouldn't have offered up the Rozier pick + the future Jaylen Brown pick + two more 1st rounders in an effort to move up from 16 to 9. We're lucky that didn't happen.

It's also really difficult to claim that there was any value in the team making the playoffs and building a culture when you consider that pretty much everyone key to that run (Isaiah, Evan Turner, Kelly Olynyk, Brandon Bass, Jared Sullinger, Tyler Zeller) is gone now.

But at the end of the day, it kept Brad happy, he didn't jump ship, and Rozier is looking really nice right now.  If he keeps this up, I could see him being moved for a Top 10 pick afterall.

[bogg]

It's also really difficult to claim that there was any value in the team making the playoffs and building a culture when you consider that pretty much everyone key to that run (Isaiah, Evan Turner, Kelly Olynyk, Brandon Bass, Jared Sullinger, Tyler Zeller) is gone now.

It's not difficult at all. Again - winning games is what happens when you put a good coach together with good players who play hard. IT and Marcus Smart and them just aren't going to willingly sit out games they can play in so that the team will hopefully lose, and Brad Stevens isn't going to intentionally coach his team to a loss. They just aren't wired that way. Would it have been nice if other teams had won a bunch as well and Boston wound up picking higher? Sure. However, you just can't separate the guys who won those games from the ability to sign Al Horford and Gordon Hayward in later summers, though, and they played some role in helping to bring up Rozier, Smart, and Jaylen.

I honestly believe you can draw a direct line from the IT Celtics to Al Horford, to Gordon Hayward, and eventually to Kyrie Irving. If they kept Rondo/Green on the books, tanked their way to Justise Winslow, and went forward with a strategy of multiple (additional) high picks the ripple effects are enormous.

[keevsnick]

It's also really difficult to claim that there was any value in the team making the playoffs and building a culture when you consider that pretty much everyone key to that run (Isaiah, Evan Turner, Kelly Olynyk, Brandon Bass, Jared Sullinger, Tyler Zeller) is gone now.

But at the end of the day, it kept Brad happy, he didn't jump ship, and Rozier is looking really nice right now.  If he keeps this up, I could see him being moved for a Top 10 pick afterall.

This is a point that gets lost alot when evaluating the impact of a playoff run. If you make it with a bunch of mid career veterans who arent going to be a part of your long term future then i don't really know what impact it has. None of our young guys with the exception of Smart were on that team. And I dont buy the Brad stuff, that was his second season. He signed on knowing it was gonna be a rebuild. He wasn't leaving that offseason.

It worked out well all things considered, but I don't think being an eighth seed in general is a desirable situation unless you are a young team trying to make the next step.

[bogg]

It's also really difficult to claim that there was any value in the team making the playoffs and building a culture when you consider that pretty much everyone key to that run (Isaiah, Evan Turner, Kelly Olynyk, Brandon Bass, Jared Sullinger, Tyler Zeller) is gone now.

But at the end of the day, it kept Brad happy, he didn't jump ship, and Rozier is looking really nice right now.  If he keeps this up, I could see him being moved for a Top 10 pick afterall.

This is a point that gets lost alot when evaluating the impact of a playoff run. If you make it with a bunch of mid career veterans who arent going to be a part of your long term future then i don't really know what impact it has. None of our young guys with the exception of Smart were on that team. And I dont buy the Brad stuff, that was his second season. He signed on knowing it was gonna be a rebuild. He wasn't leaving that offseason.

It worked out well all things considered, but I don't think being an eighth seed in general is a desirable situation unless you are a young team trying to make the next step.

You honestly don't think the past several seasons of playoff teams played a role in the ability to sign Horford and Hayward?