What's going on in Cleveland?

[celticsclay]

Oh man this has all been great news for the Celtics.

The most interesting thing about the Cavs is that they are only going to be worst next year than they were last year. They are bringing back Jefferson at 37, Korver at 36, Presumably Frye at 34. James himself turns 32. Do they bring back this guy?

https://www.si.com/extra-mustard/2017/06/23/deron-williams-cleveland-cavaliers-nba-finals-mixtape

So to the question of what team would have a better chance to win than this version of the Cavs? Probably just about any team that has some very good players on valuable contracts. We literally just watched this play out in Cleveland when he came back. On paper that team had a young unproven Kyrie Irving, the number 1 pick and a few decent players. That is it.
So we are saying a year from now if Lebron goes to Minnesota they can't dump Wiggins, Dieng and some expirings and set up a big 3 of KAT, Butler and James? Heck the 76ers could slow him along side Simmons, Embiid and Fultz and Saric with room for additional players. The Celtics could obviously create a very appealing situation with some moves. Heck if he goes to the Lakers with PG and they have Ingram and Ball on cheap contracts with team control that is already a very intriguing team before you get all the ring chasers of the world joining them (wade and anthony would be a lot more likely to sign for the minimum a year from now and would still be at least solid vets.

I mean Cleveland in cap hell with no young players and stars that don't perfectly compliment each other is really not that great a situation and Lebron could create a better situation on just about team in the league with clean books. The funny thing is we literally just saw this happen 3 years ago....

[Moranis]

Oh man this has all been great news for the Celtics.

The most interesting thing about the Cavs is that they are only going to be worst next year than they were last year. They are bringing back Jefferson at 37, Korver at 36, Presumably Frye at 34. James himself turns 32. Do they bring back this guy?

https://www.si.com/extra-mustard/2017/06/23/deron-williams-cleveland-cavaliers-nba-finals-mixtape

So to the question of what team would have a better chance to win than this version of the Cavs? Probably just about any team that has some very good players on valuable contracts. We literally just watched this play out in Cleveland when he came back. On paper that team had a young unproven Kyrie Irving, the number 1 pick and a few decent players. That is it.
So we are saying a year from now if Lebron goes to Minnesota they can't dump Wiggins, Dieng and some expirings and set up a big 3 of KAT, Butler and James? Heck the 76ers could slow him along side Simmons, Embiid and Fultz and Saric with room for additional players. The Celtics could obviously create a very appealing situation with some moves. Heck if he goes to the Lakers with PG and they have Ingram and Ball on cheap contracts with team control that is already a very intriguing team before you get all the ring chasers of the world joining them (wade and anthony would be a lot more likely to sign for the minimum a year from now and would still be at least solid vets.

I mean Cleveland in cap hell with no young players and stars that don't perfectly compliment each other is really not that great a situation and Lebron could create a better situation on just about team in the league with clean books. The funny thing is we literally just saw this happen 3 years ago....

3 years ago Golden St. didn't exist and James was 3 years younger.  That Lakers team may not even make the WCF, I just can't see James leaving a team that will likely be in 4 straight finals to go to a western team that wouldn't be anywhere near the favorite to even win the conference.  Now if the Lakers could finagle, George, Westbrook and James, then that is a different story.  Or if the Spurs could clear some room to pair James and Leonard and still have quality surrounding talent.  If the Sixers make a jump this year, then I really think they could be in play.  If that team wins 40+ games and makes the playoffs with Embiid, Simmons, and/or Fultz looking like perennial all stars then they might make more sense then staying in Cleveland because that is the one situation where James could realistically be winning titles at 40 off the backs of the other guys (like Kareem did with Johnson and Worthy).  And the Sixers will actually have a lot of cap room and enough sufficient other players that they could still acquire other veterans.

The Cavs are heavy favorites to win the East and that is before Wade and/or Anthony ends up there (I think at least one is pretty likely this year if not both).  James isn't going to leave his home city unless he gets a clear upgrade on winning a title or unless Gilbert does some more stupid things thus giving James no real choice (so to speak).  I wouldn't put the latter past Gilbert either.  He is the definition of a petulant child owner. 

[celticsclay]

Oh man this has all been great news for the Celtics.

The most interesting thing about the Cavs is that they are only going to be worst next year than they were last year. They are bringing back Jefferson at 37, Korver at 36, Presumably Frye at 34. James himself turns 32. Do they bring back this guy?

https://www.si.com/extra-mustard/2017/06/23/deron-williams-cleveland-cavaliers-nba-finals-mixtape

So to the question of what team would have a better chance to win than this version of the Cavs? Probably just about any team that has some very good players on valuable contracts. We literally just watched this play out in Cleveland when he came back. On paper that team had a young unproven Kyrie Irving, the number 1 pick and a few decent players. That is it.
So we are saying a year from now if Lebron goes to Minnesota they can't dump Wiggins, Dieng and some expirings and set up a big 3 of KAT, Butler and James? Heck the 76ers could slow him along side Simmons, Embiid and Fultz and Saric with room for additional players. The Celtics could obviously create a very appealing situation with some moves. Heck if he goes to the Lakers with PG and they have Ingram and Ball on cheap contracts with team control that is already a very intriguing team before you get all the ring chasers of the world joining them (wade and anthony would be a lot more likely to sign for the minimum a year from now and would still be at least solid vets.

I mean Cleveland in cap hell with no young players and stars that don't perfectly compliment each other is really not that great a situation and Lebron could create a better situation on just about team in the league with clean books. The funny thing is we literally just saw this happen 3 years ago....

3 years ago Golden St. didn't exist and James was 3 years younger.  That Lakers team may not even make the WCF, I just can't see James leaving a team that will likely be in 4 straight finals to go to a western team that wouldn't be anywhere near the favorite to even win the conference.  Now if the Lakers could finagle, George, Westbrook and James, then that is a different story.  Or if the Spurs could clear some room to pair James and Leonard and still have quality surrounding talent.  If the Sixers make a jump this year, then I really think they could be in play.  If that team wins 40+ games and makes the playoffs with Embiid, Simmons, and/or Fultz looking like perennial all stars then they might make more sense then staying in Cleveland because that is the one situation where James could realistically be winning titles at 40 off the backs of the other guys (like Kareem did with Johnson and Worthy).  And the Sixers will actually have a lot of cap room and enough sufficient other players that they could still acquire other veterans.

The Cavs are heavy favorites to win the East and that is before Wade and/or Anthony ends up there (I think at least one is pretty likely this year if not both).  James isn't going to leave his home city unless he gets a clear upgrade on winning a title or unless Gilbert does some more stupid things thus giving James no real choice (so to speak).  I wouldn't put the latter past Gilbert either.  He is the definition of a petulant child owner.

Honestly man it sounds like you are just in flat out denial. Lebron is not going to be like we have been good the last couple of years and look at a roster filled with 34-38 year olds and zero improving young players and stay there based on the past. While the Cavs may be modest favorites over the Celtics this season if both teams only make minor moves the rest of the off-season it is the last season they would be favorites over the Celtics if the Celtics keep their team together. Just about every single player on the Cavs is getting worse each year because of age. Just about every player on the Celtics is staying the same or getting better. What does Jaylen Brown look like in 2018-2019? Tatum? Maybe someone like Smart, Rozier or Zicic takes a leap and becomes an above average starter?

It is also clear the Cavs realize this and have bandied about Kevin Love like they ended up with a used spatula at a white elephant Christmas party. That team has maxed out and Lebron is not going to stay there as they go from Champs to finalist to ecf to losing a tight series in the second round. 

[Moranis]

The Cavs 4 best players are James 32, Irving 25, Love 28, and Thompson 26.  Some old role players aren't a big deal because the role players aren't that team (the bigger concerns are the long term and bad contracts to Thompson, Smith, and Shumpert and the general lack of consistent defensive oriented role players).  If the core was older it would be much more concerning from a long term standpoint.  I mean look at the Warriors: Iggy, ZaZa, West, and Livingston are all in their 30's (Iggy and West are pretty far into their 30's).  They just signed Nick Young who is 32.  But the age of those role players just doesn't matter because Curry, Green, Thompson, and Durant are all still very much in their prime.  The Spurs are Leonard and a bunch of old men.  They seem to be doing just fine and if not for Leonard's injury who knows what happens in that GS series (I still would have expected GS to win, but you just never know). 

I'm not suggesting James won't leave, I'm just saying he isn't going to leave to go to a place where his odds of winning a title aren't any better.  He does nothing by leaving and losing except tarnishing his legacy.  If he leaves it will be to win (or at least put himself in a much better position to win). 

[celticsclay]

The Cavs 4 best players are James 32, Irving 25, Love 28, and Thompson 26.  Some old role players aren't a big deal because the role players aren't that team (the bigger concerns are the long term and bad contracts to Thompson, Smith, and Shumpert and the general lack of consistent defensive oriented role players).  If the core was older it would be much more concerning from a long term standpoint.  I mean look at the Warriors: Iggy, ZaZa, West, and Livingston are all in their 30's (Iggy and West are pretty far into their 30's).  They just signed Nick Young who is 32.  But the age of those role players just doesn't matter because Curry, Green, Thompson, and Durant are all still very much in their prime.  The Spurs are Leonard and a bunch of old men.  They seem to be doing just fine and if not for Leonard's injury who knows what happens in that GS series (I still would have expected GS to win, but you just never know). 

I'm not suggesting James won't leave, I'm just saying he isn't going to leave to go to a place where his odds of winning a title aren't any better.  He does nothing by leaving and losing except tarnishing his legacy.  If he leaves it will be to win (or at least put himself in a much better position to win).

You really don't think the age of the Cavs players played a role in them looking wiped and getting run off the floor in the finals (or their bad defense for most of the season)?

Deron Williams, Korver, Jefferson got absolutely roasted when they were in the series and killed Cleveland not to mention Jr Smith is one of the most washed up soon-to-be 32-year-old players  in the league. Then you have Lebron turning 33 early next season. He absolutely can not be leading the league in minutes next season again and have a full tank for the playoffs. When we had Pierce, Allen and KG were getting very concerned with their minutes and having younger backups with fresh legs when they were that age (we didn't transition great on that either because Doc hated playing young players and probably cost a chip). Pretending the depth and having all ancient bench and role players isn't a problem is asinine.

It is funny that you bring up the Spurs because for 15 years they have done an excellent job of developing young players to offset their aging veterans. I feel like you know more about basketball to not miss this point so bad. When their first big 3 was aging they had Danny Green. Patty Mills (then quite young) and Leonard playing absolutely pivotal roles in limiting the minutes and scoring load asked of Duncan, Parker and Ginobli as they won a championship against your hero Lebron. Now as some of their players like Green and Aldridge have gotten older they have been developing Murray, Forbes, Anderson and to a lesser extent Bertans all playing between 8-16 minutes last year ( both regular season and playoffs) for a team that won 50 some games. Murray and Anderson look like they could be particularly promising. With max salary slots and crazy contracts the only way to keep a run going is to mix in players on rookie contracts and the Cavs are possibly the only team this side of Doc "I hate young players" Rivers. Incidentally being unable to develop a single young player for the last 5 years in LA certainly contributed to Paul no longer being there....

[Moranis]

The Cavs lost because of their big 4

Game 1 +-
James -22
Irving -17
Love -11
Thompson -13
(since you mentioned Korver, Jefferson, and Deron - I included them)
Korver -8
Jefferson -7
Deron -8

Game 2 +-
James -11
Irving -17
Love -8
Thompson -18
Korver -3
Jefferson -7
Deron -8

Game 3 +-
James +7
Irving -9
Love -11
Thompson -6
Korver +3
Jefferson -5
Deron +4

Game 4 +-
James +32
Irving +7
Love +18
Thompson +3
Korver +3
Jefferson +13
Deron +3

Game 5 +-
James -13
Irving +4
Love -23
Thompson -7
Korver +0
Jefferson +3
Deron +2


So here are the series totals, with total minutes
James -7, 212, lost 1 point every 30.29 minutes
Irving -32, 202, lost 1 point every 6.31 minutes
Love -35, 161, lost 1 point every 4.6 minutes
Thompson -41, 132, lost 1 point every 3.22 minutes
Korver -5, 97, lost 1 point every 19.4 minutes
Jefferson -3, 83, lost 1 point every 27.67 minutes
Deron -7, 61, lost 1 point every 8.71 minutes

For the record Golden State scored 608 points, the Cavs scored 574, so a difference of 34 which over the 240 minutes equates to GS gaining 1 point every 7.06 minutes.  So those 3 bench players you called out actually did better than the Cavs team as a whole and Irving, Love, and Thompson were well below the team average. 

The Cavs lost because outside of James the Big 4 was terrible.  The Big 4 aren't old.  They aren't run down, they are just greatly flawed players (outside of James).  If you want to argue that James will leave because Irving, Love, and Thompson aren't good enough, then that is a fine argument, but if you want to claim the Cavs aren't winning because there bench is old and isn't any good, the numbers just don't support that position.  The Cavs quite simply lost because Irving, Love, and Thompson just weren't good enough and they may never be good enough because Irving and Love are poor defenders and Thompson is a terrible offensive player. 

All that said, if the Cavs don't choke game 3 away, that is probably a 7 game series (I'd expect GS to win) and the outlook is probably a bit different in Cleveland if they pushed them to 7.  But the Cavs did choke game 3 away and ended up losing in 5.  The Cavs need a top level player that is at least good on both sides of the ball so they don't have to hide someone else on one end of the floor.  That is why the Cavs tried to move Love for George.  George would have been the perfect for the Cavs because he is a high level player on both ends of the floor. 

[celticsclay]

The Cavs lost because of their big 4

Game 1 +-
James -22
Irving -17
Love -11
Thompson -13
(since you mentioned Korver, Jefferson, and Deron - I included them)
Korver -8
Jefferson -7
Deron -8

Game 2 +-
James -11
Irving -17
Love -8
Thompson -18
Korver -3
Jefferson -7
Deron -8

Game 3 +-
James +7
Irving -9
Love -11
Thompson -6
Korver +3
Jefferson -5
Deron +4

Game 4 +-
James +32
Irving +7
Love +18
Thompson +3
Korver +3
Jefferson +13
Deron +3

Game 5 +-
James -13
Irving +4
Love -23
Thompson -7
Korver +0
Jefferson +3
Deron +2


So here are the series totals, with total minutes
James -7, 212, lost 1 point every 30.29 minutes
Irving -32, 202, lost 1 point every 6.31 minutes
Love -35, 161, lost 1 point every 4.6 minutes
Thompson -41, 132, lost 1 point every 3.22 minutes
Korver -5, 97, lost 1 point every 19.4 minutes
Jefferson -3, 83, lost 1 point every 27.67 minutes
Deron -7, 61, lost 1 point every 8.71 minutes

For the record Golden State scored 608 points, the Cavs scored 574, so a difference of 34 which over the 240 minutes equates to GS gaining 1 point every 7.06 minutes.  So those 3 bench players you called out actually did better than the Cavs team as a whole and Irving, Love, and Thompson were well below the team average. 

The Cavs lost because outside of James the Big 4 was terrible.  The Big 4 aren't old.  They aren't run down, they are just greatly flawed players (outside of James).  If you want to argue that James will leave because Irving, Love, and Thompson aren't good enough, then that is a fine argument, but if you want to claim the Cavs aren't winning because there bench is old and isn't any good, the numbers just don't support that position.  The Cavs quite simply lost because Irving, Love, and Thompson just weren't good enough and they may never be good enough because Irving and Love are poor defenders and Thompson is a terrible offensive player. 

All that said, if the Cavs don't choke game 3 away, that is probably a 7 game series (I'd expect GS to win) and the outlook is probably a bit different in Cleveland if they pushed them to 7.  But the Cavs did choke game 3 away and ended up losing in 5.  The Cavs need a top level player that is at least good on both sides of the ball so they don't have to hide someone else on one end of the floor.  That is why the Cavs tried to move Love for George.  George would have been the perfect for the Cavs because he is a high level player on both ends of the floor.

Plus and minus really isn't a good indicator of anything over 5 games. I don't think it is great over the course of a season, but trying to make judgements off it based on a 5 game series where there dramatic adjustments in rotations and playing time is fairly ridiculous.

Related to the bold, you are one of the only people that follows basketball that actually thinks this. I was going to see outside of Cleveland, but there you are.

Also, the fact that Griffin was on the phone right after the season ended trying to get Butler, George or any available star for Love and dramatically change their team shows nobody in their office really believe they were a few breaks away from a 7 game series.

[Moranis]

Put it this way if Cleveland doesn't choke game 3, do you think they still win game 4?  If that series goes back to GS at 2-2, do you really think GS wins the next 2 and closes that series out on Cleveland's home floor in game 6?  If Cleveland actually closed out game 3, that is a vastly different series.  I think you could make a reasonable argument that Cleveland would have won in 6 in that scenario because game 5 there would have been a ton of pressure on GS with a tied series (and they only won it by 9 without any pressure). 

Cleveland was trying to acquire Butler and George because they are better than Love and certainly better fits against a team like GS.  Cleveland absolutely needs another 2 way wing to match up against GS.  They need someone that will make Durant work on both ends of the floor.  That is the only way you can beat GS, you have to make Durant, Curry, and Thompson all work on both ends.  If you don't and let them hide at least one of those guys on one end of the floor, you have very little margin for error. 

[celticsclay]

Put it this way if Cleveland doesn't choke game 3, do you think they still win game 4?  If that series goes back to GS at 2-2, do you really think GS wins the next 2 and closes that series out on Cleveland's home floor in game 6?  If Cleveland actually closed out game 3, that is a vastly different series.  I think you could make a reasonable argument that Cleveland would have won in 6 in that scenario because game 5 there would have been a ton of pressure on GS with a tied series (and they only won it by 9 without any pressure). 

Cleveland was trying to acquire Butler and George because they are better than Love and certainly better fits against a team like GS.  Cleveland absolutely needs another 2 way wing to match up against GS.  They need someone that will make Durant work on both ends of the floor.  That is the only way you can beat GS, you have to make Durant, Curry, and Thompson all work on both ends.  If you don't and let them hide at least one of those guys on one end of the floor, you have very little margin for error.

No I don't. Teams have a very hard time not letting up a little bit if they are up 3-0. Golden State was a lot better and it was not really even a competitive series. That Cleveland water is really impacting your objectivity.

For what it is worth ESPN has noted them as one of the losers of the offseason for just bringing back their old team a year older.

[Phantom255x]

Cleveland literally doesn't seem to be doing anything.

Sign Calderon and Jeff Green, that's it.

Writing on the wall is Lebron leaves after 2018, although with the West getting even more brutal, idk if he wants to do that lol.

[celticsclay]

Cleveland literally doesn't seem to be doing anything.

Sign Calderon and Jeff Green, that's it.

Writing on the wall is Lebron leaves after 2018, although with the West getting even more brutal, idk if he wants to do that lol.

From SI:

Low-balling David Griffin in extension talks was not a great look, low-balling Chauncey Billups was even worse, and now the future is uncertain for everyone in Cleveland. LeBron has been silent throughout this process, and he reportedly never made contact with Billups as he weighed the offer. Something is happening in Cleveland, and whatever it is, we don't have the full story.

For now, the biggest moves the Cavs have made are re-signing Kyle Korver to a $21 million deal, signing Jose Calderon, and becoming the latest team to run out of options and say, "Well, Jeff Green is available..."

It's been a steep fall from Jimmy Butler rumors and Paul George blockbusters. The Cavs are still the best team in the East, no question. But the gap between them and the Warriors looks even wider after this summer. I guess at some point we can sleepwalk through a conversation about Jeff Green's role or what Calderon could do, but it feels secondary after the past few weeks. Only one Cavs question matters: What the hell is happening with Dan Gilbert and LeBron? Grade: D

[Phantom255x]

Cleveland literally doesn't seem to be doing anything.

Sign Calderon and Jeff Green, that's it.

Writing on the wall is Lebron leaves after 2018, although with the West getting even more brutal, idk if he wants to do that lol.

From SI:

Low-balling David Griffin in extension talks was not a great look, low-balling Chauncey Billups was even worse, and now the future is uncertain for everyone in Cleveland. LeBron has been silent throughout this process, and he reportedly never made contact with Billups as he weighed the offer. Something is happening in Cleveland, and whatever it is, we don't have the full story.

For now, the biggest moves the Cavs have made are re-signing Kyle Korver to a $21 million deal, signing Jose Calderon, and becoming the latest team to run out of options and say, "Well, Jeff Green is available..."

It's been a steep fall from Jimmy Butler rumors and Paul George blockbusters. The Cavs are still the best team in the East, no question. But the gap between them and the Warriors looks even wider after this summer. I guess at some point we can sleepwalk through a conversation about Jeff Green's role or what Calderon could do, but it feels secondary after the past few weeks. Only one Cavs question matters: What the hell is happening with Dan Gilbert and LeBron? Grade: D

Yep, and I also completely forgot about them extending Korver, but that really doesn't do much for them either especially at his age, and for 3/22M? More cap problems going forward lol.

[celticsclay]

Cleveland literally doesn't seem to be doing anything.

Sign Calderon and Jeff Green, that's it.

Writing on the wall is Lebron leaves after 2018, although with the West getting even more brutal, idk if he wants to do that lol.

From SI:

Low-balling David Griffin in extension talks was not a great look, low-balling Chauncey Billups was even worse, and now the future is uncertain for everyone in Cleveland. LeBron has been silent throughout this process, and he reportedly never made contact with Billups as he weighed the offer. Something is happening in Cleveland, and whatever it is, we don't have the full story.

For now, the biggest moves the Cavs have made are re-signing Kyle Korver to a $21 million deal, signing Jose Calderon, and becoming the latest team to run out of options and say, "Well, Jeff Green is available..."

It's been a steep fall from Jimmy Butler rumors and Paul George blockbusters. The Cavs are still the best team in the East, no question. But the gap between them and the Warriors looks even wider after this summer. I guess at some point we can sleepwalk through a conversation about Jeff Green's role or what Calderon could do, but it feels secondary after the past few weeks. Only one Cavs question matters: What the hell is happening with Dan Gilbert and LeBron? Grade: D

Yep, and I also completely forgot about them extending Korver, but that really doesn't do much for them either especially at his age, and for 3/22M? More cap problems going forward lol.

I am curious if they will bring back Deron Williams. After his performance in the finals I thought they would upgrade with a flier on a younger guy to add a little athleticism. They picked one of the only point guards in the league that is both older and less athletic in Jose Calderon who has been cooked for about 3 years now and will be 36 at the start of the season.

[SHAQATTACK]

the cavs are all hand picked by LeWhiner himslf .   .....he approved of every trade and wanted hIS people / his buddies .......to command and control.

now its time to toss people off the team , move , bring in new players .....maube not buddies

Lebron and HIS players failed ......goona take more brains than James has to solve the GS problem , throwing money is not going to work....all the better player are taken.

now he wants to wash his hands of the dirty work , plus cavs will have to get better by inches like the Celtics at this point .  There is no one available better than Love , or anybody that can push them to the level of GS.  It will take a savy GM to improve the Cavs with already 4 max player and repeater tax hanging on their necks. not a job id want to walk into.

Basically Lebron just can sit on his hands .....wait to join a club that is closer to beating GS with him on it. .......Lebron is watching and waiting to see where to jump.

Gilbert know the gig is up ......its all going to crash down