marcus in the paint--

[CelticPride2016]

This is a ridiculous situation. Amir plays like he's 36. Olynyk is a hybrid who will play off his front court big. Zeller looks like a center, but he is weak on defense. It makes no sense. Sure, I agree with Rollie who said look at how he flips the ball into the net with either hand, with soft hands, and watch how he is money in the bank like Brandon Bass from 17 feet. Pachulia money.

This is about no Crowder and Horford to go with undersized defense. Phil Pressey was perhaps one of our best pound for pound defenders, but you simply are at a disadvantage. The people above make good points. Ray Allen was bad at defense, but that must be kept in context. Women don't play in the PGA and if all is to the norm, a great middleweight will be destroyed by a good heavyweight.

So don't start Marcus Smart at small forward. Just don't. There had to be a better way. I don't know who's fault that is, Brad or Danny, or if they should share blame. This is just a bad start with two of our best players out. We can debate if Crowder was a fluke last year, but his ceiling is way up high. Horford was seamlessly fitting into the system.

People complain about Kelly, but it was just one bad game. He isn't paid to carry us every game. If you're going to bring back James Young over RJ Hunter, then why not cut him too and play Zizac?

Why is Jordan Mickey on the team if you're not going to give him minutes?

I go back and forth happy and worried.

We'll probably win big tonight at Detroit.

Golden State is like a video game the way they shoot.

I thought the refs were terrible.

I thought Brad was smart to start experimenting and Isaiah was just playing the ornery Gerald Wallace vet role. There was a three a.m. call, so there probably won't be a team meeting.

I would bench Green until he shows better effort on defense and more that he is on board with Brad's team style.

You have to roll the dice with Jaylen Brown. That is where I think Brad has messed up a bit. Going to Smart at small forward was epic overthinking.

I love Isaiah. The problem is when we play short and Olynyk has those dinosaur arms, the best you can ever get to is a Jason Collins defense level. Good offensive teams will simply negate our skills and bully us.

Olynyk gave us a good kick in the pants, but it is getting stranger by the day that Horford hasn't returned. Zeller cracked him in the skull with an elbow? How come that has to be a big secret?

[droopdog7]

I've heard no mention at all about smart basically getting abused by Barnes.  Had to put Avery on him to try and slow him down.  Smarts defense is way overrated around here.

Barnes just got hot. He's 6 inches taller than Smart, so there isn't a lot Smart can do if he's knocking down contested fade aways. Smart is an unbelievable defender, but he isn't Kawhi Leonard. He has his limitations.

At least you're honest.  Like I said, the way people talk about him you'd think smart was the greatest defender ever.  Walk on water type stuff.  And while Barnes I guess got hot, there was a reason for that.  He basically got the shot he wanted every time.  Nothing smart could do about it.  And yes, Barnes is bigger but how many people mention last years playoff against the Hawks when pumping up his defense.  Fact is, that's not something smart can actually sustain.

Anyway, the point is that smart isn't as good of a defender than people think.  And that defense [dang] sure won't make up for bad offense.  But yeah, he is definitely showing some progress on the offensive end.

What are u talking about? Smart is definitely one of the better team and individual defenders in the league, particularly at the guard position. Barnes just got hot. It happens when u go up against scorers. Besides, Barnes scored on Avery too.

And I don't think it's something Smart can sustain but the fact that he can go out and be effective for stretches is a feat in itself. For example, as all worldly of a defender Kevin Garnett was in his prime, I don't think he could've guarded a player like Steph Curry for a full game. But I bet he could for stints.

What am I talking about?  People talk about smart defense like he walks on water.  Like he is the greatest defender of all time. Like it somehow makes up for being a bad offensive player. 

And like I said, Barnes got hot for a reason.  He was getting whatever shot he wanted.  A great defensive players is supposed to cool down a hot player.  And of course Avery was going to have trouble with him.  Barnes is much bigger.

And I know some guys are simply professional scorers.  But if smart has to at least be able to slow them down.  If he can't, then what difference does he really make?

[CelticPride2016]

Marcus Smart could be the greatest defensive guard in NBA History, but it's early in his career.

[LilRip]

I've heard no mention at all about smart basically getting abused by Barnes.  Had to put Avery on him to try and slow him down.  Smarts defense is way overrated around here.

Barnes just got hot. He's 6 inches taller than Smart, so there isn't a lot Smart can do if he's knocking down contested fade aways. Smart is an unbelievable defender, but he isn't Kawhi Leonard. He has his limitations.

At least you're honest.  Like I said, the way people talk about him you'd think smart was the greatest defender ever.  Walk on water type stuff.  And while Barnes I guess got hot, there was a reason for that.  He basically got the shot he wanted every time.  Nothing smart could do about it.  And yes, Barnes is bigger but how many people mention last years playoff against the Hawks when pumping up his defense.  Fact is, that's not something smart can actually sustain.

Anyway, the point is that smart isn't as good of a defender than people think.  And that defense [dang] sure won't make up for bad offense.  But yeah, he is definitely showing some progress on the offensive end.

What are u talking about? Smart is definitely one of the better team and individual defenders in the league, particularly at the guard position. Barnes just got hot. It happens when u go up against scorers. Besides, Barnes scored on Avery too.

And I don't think it's something Smart can sustain but the fact that he can go out and be effective for stretches is a feat in itself. For example, as all worldly of a defender Kevin Garnett was in his prime, I don't think he could've guarded a player like Steph Curry for a full game. But I bet he could for stints.

What am I talking about?  People talk about smart defense like he walks on water.  Like he is the greatest defender of all time. Like it somehow makes up for being a bad offensive player. 

And like I said, Barnes got hot for a reason.  He was getting whatever shot he wanted.  A great defensive players is supposed to cool down a hot player.  And of course Avery was going to have trouble with him.  Barnes is much bigger.

And I know some guys are simply professional scorers.  But if smart has to at least be able to slow them down.  If he can't, then what difference does he really make?

Well, he is a pretty great defender. The structure of your argument sounds a lot like "Olajuwon embarrassed David Robinson that one game. Thus, David Robinson isn't really a good defender". It was one game. Nowitzki scored on Ibaka a whole bunch while Ibaka was still considered a top defender. Klay Thompson torched Andre Roberson in last year's playoffs. It happens. And note, those examples aren't even mismatches.

Scorers will get theirs, and it doesn't help that it was a mismatch. Smart was playing out of position at the 3, but the fact that he can hold his own is a feat in itself. Even the great Kawhi can't guard a guy like Curry for the whole game, and I'd assume a guy like Cousins would score on him inside as well.

Smart's there because he makes winning plays that go beyond the box score. Horford said it in an interview today after the game, if Smart didn't get the initial o-reb, he wouldn't have had a chance for his put back. That's the difference he makes.

[droopdog7]

I've heard no mention at all about smart basically getting abused by Barnes.  Had to put Avery on him to try and slow him down.  Smarts defense is way overrated around here.

Barnes just got hot. He's 6 inches taller than Smart, so there isn't a lot Smart can do if he's knocking down contested fade aways. Smart is an unbelievable defender, but he isn't Kawhi Leonard. He has his limitations.

At least you're honest.  Like I said, the way people talk about him you'd think smart was the greatest defender ever.  Walk on water type stuff.  And while Barnes I guess got hot, there was a reason for that.  He basically got the shot he wanted every time.  Nothing smart could do about it.  And yes, Barnes is bigger but how many people mention last years playoff against the Hawks when pumping up his defense.  Fact is, that's not something smart can actually sustain.

Anyway, the point is that smart isn't as good of a defender than people think.  And that defense [dang] sure won't make up for bad offense.  But yeah, he is definitely showing some progress on the offensive end.

What are u talking about? Smart is definitely one of the better team and individual defenders in the league, particularly at the guard position. Barnes just got hot. It happens when u go up against scorers. Besides, Barnes scored on Avery too.

And I don't think it's something Smart can sustain but the fact that he can go out and be effective for stretches is a feat in itself. For example, as all worldly of a defender Kevin Garnett was in his prime, I don't think he could've guarded a player like Steph Curry for a full game. But I bet he could for stints.

What am I talking about?  People talk about smart defense like he walks on water.  Like he is the greatest defender of all time. Like it somehow makes up for being a bad offensive player. 

And like I said, Barnes got hot for a reason.  He was getting whatever shot he wanted.  A great defensive players is supposed to cool down a hot player.  And of course Avery was going to have trouble with him.  Barnes is much bigger.

And I know some guys are simply professional scorers.  But if smart has to at least be able to slow them down.  If he can't, then what difference does he really make?

Well, he is a pretty great defender. The structure of your argument sounds a lot like "Olajuwon embarrassed David Robinson that one game. Thus, David Robinson isn't really a good defender". It was one game. Nowitzki scored on Ibaka a whole bunch while Ibaka was still considered a top defender. Klay Thompson torched Andre Roberson in last year's playoffs. It happens. And note, those examples aren't even mismatches.

Scorers will get theirs, and it doesn't help that it was a mismatch. Smart was playing out of position at the 3, but the fact that he can hold his own is a feat in itself. Even the great Kawhi can't guard a guy like Curry for the whole game, and I'd assume a guy like Cousins would score on him inside as well.

Smart's there because he makes winning plays that go beyond the box score. Horford said it in an interview today after the game, if Smart didn't get the initial o-reb, he wouldn't have had a chance for his put back. That's the difference he makes.

This is essentially the crux of my point.  If scorers are going to get theirs, then what difference does a great defender really make?  My point is, people harping on Smart's defense like it makes up for being terrible on the offensive end.  That is just simply wrong.

[rollie mass]

in 4th marcus was boxing out and then pulled down a big defensive rebound in paint using his strength-
big time plays and hit a three
he still gets stuck with time running down not only that if he checks court to see if a reset is possible before clock gets critical-both of these situations hurt his average
kelly would freak and jerebko can't put it on the floor and takes time on his shot-if it isn't happening he might as well take this shot now rather getting it back with seconds or watch them make a panic forced play-not good for your average

[Granath]

This is essentially the crux of my point.  If scorers are going to get theirs, then what difference does a great defender really make?  My point is, people harping on Smart's defense like it makes up for being terrible on the offensive end.  That is just simply wrong.

It's not wrong. Scorers are going to score but it's all a matter of efficiency. Last night Wiggins got 14 last night but it took him 18 shots. LaVine got 11 but it took him 12 shots. That's how you beat scorers.

Smart's guys shoot about worse when he's guarding them. For the easiest baskets - the stuff in the middle - that percentage goes up to a whopping 10-15%. There are no easy baskets from inside the arc in SmartLand. He also tends to force more turnovers and gets a pretty healthy number of steals. Plus it's obvious to anyone watching the game he's simply disruptive to the offensive flow of the other team. He's a fly in the ointment, the stone in the road for the other team. He's in their passing lanes, he's forcing guys out of position, he's interrupting their pick-and-rolls. None of that really appears on the player card but it happens quite often.

I'm not trying to make him out to be Superman or anything on the court. But the guy knows how to win without the ball in his hands, drives the other team nuts and knows when the big moments of the game are going to happen. That's how games are won (just look at what he did at Detroit two nights ago in the waning moments of the game).

[SHAQATTACK]

Smart plays like a man.

Period .

[ThePaintedArea]

Height cannot be taught.

Speed and quickness are surely more important, especially in today's wide-open game. But if you add height to quickness… Then you've really got something.

The only gimmick that seemed to work was Phil Jackson's use of the triangle.

How is the triangle a gimmick? It's a structured way to get open shots through ball and man movement. It is team basketball at its purest, which is why that old codger Jackson loves it so much. For him, team ball is an expression of an ideal, of a team playing together selflessly. Whether the result is a lot of inefficient midrange jumpers and post-ups is a separate question.

I am not confident in starting Isaiah, Avery and Marcus together. I watched Doc Rivers play a lot of three guard lineups, but I think Doc's idea was to have the best players on the court as if height doesn't matter. I don't sense Brad does it for the same reason, but more because it is what it is and survival while key guys are out.

After the Denver game, Brad Stevens said that what was missing was guys "standing their ground". Enough said.

Danny could have signed Zizac. We might have a better record right now despite losing Horford.

I'm afraid that you've overestimated him. Do you think that the Celtics made a mistake in letting someone else develop his game? They did that because he's a longshot to make the league, and an even longer shot to one day, someday, play with Boston.

Evan Turner is not very good at defense. He probably still would've been a better option than anyone else currently on the roster, but that's not saying much.

I thought he was quite good last year. More surprising, you seem to think that the roster is stocked with subpar defenders. I disagree.

James Young simply takes up space. We don't need more than Green or Young for one scrub to be the third small forward/tall shooting guard.

I'm counting Crowder, Smart, and Brown (who is already getting rotation minutes). Avery already gets starter's minutes. The competition is for fifth wing.

I was shocked that Young was kept. I figured RJ deserved another year and a chance to grow into an NBA body.

I hated to see RJ go; he knows how to play. But I am not surprised by Boston's decision, which I take to be a judgment that his body may not survive in the league.

We needed a tall shooting guard. Datome seemed decent enough.

I think you meant to say "Klay".

Isaiah, Avery and Smart are a good three-fourths of a guard rotation, but we are missing a tall guard and that makes us vulnerable.

Just to point out: if you take him at his word, Brad sees four positions, namely: ball handlers, wings, swings, and bigs.

We got by one or two years with Sully, Olynyk, Zeller with Bass/Humphries, but at some point one gets tired of always having to be David against Goliath.

Boston was a top-five defensive team last year.  And, to remind you of how that particular story turned out, David won and Goliath lost.

Instead of Zeller and Young, we could have had Zizac and Nader.

Well, Nader has a ways to go, but I think that it's fair to say that Danny Ainge agrees with you about him, or at least about his potential, since they are keeping him close. Good body, acts decisively, beautiful stroke, shoots with range. As for Zizic, it would be quite an accomplishment for him to make it to the Big Show, but as I said before I'm skeptical.

In Danny's defense, he couldn't have known Horford and Crowder would get hurt.

No need to defend him, as far as I am concerned. I think he's done a bang-up job!

[CelticPride2016]

Sorry to the person above, but that's tl;dr.

[ThePaintedArea]

Sorry to the person above, but that's tl;dr.

I am "the person above", but I don't understand "tl;dr".

I'm sure that you have nothing to apologize for, but I've challenged you on a number of points and I believe that the usual protocol is to respond.

[CelticPride2016]

You go into war with the army you have. Minnesota plays Rubio. We play Smart and Olynyk. Maybe some of these players will make improvement leaps similar to Avery's. That's what we're finding out.

Okay, I read a bit.

Some or a lot of players do not like the triangle. To me it seems authoritarian and stifling. Sometimes our system seems stale. We are not smooth yet at it on offense like San Antonio or Golden State. We are more like Cleveland relying on two guys (three if you add Bradley) to primarily get it done.

We have Isaiah and Al carrying the team on their backs and each game is an opportunity to see who develops or who gets pinned as a scrub. We're looking at you, Tyler Zeller and James Young.

I finally watched some Zizac video. You might be correct he is overrated. He had great stats against a short team. In another when the opponent had a big front court, he did fine, but nothing special. Fab Melo put up monster stats in some D-League games. Good point.

He has the build. He seems to be a Colton Iverson but with more skills and potential.

I guess Danny wanted to maximize the number of players in his asset collection. Zizac is raw. I agree.

I think we can sign him later in the year. His season will be over or it can be done. I think we will end up with a very good record, but I think Danny has to make a move for a real center or the Cinderella odds will take a hit. It could be Zizac for the stretch run. I think Jaylen Brown, Olynyk and Rozier have a 99% chance of sticking in the rotation.

Ante Žižić is only 19. I think he is a shoo in to eventually make the NBA. Or maybe the person above is correct. Zizac could arrive and then all of a sudden look like James Young or Jordan Mickey with his deer eyes stuck in headlights.

I've lost all faith in Zeller. Olynyk is okay. He's due to have a break out game. We are a very interesting team. We should probably all say a prayer for Amir. We need him for rim protection. Al Horford can't do it alone if we want to be a top five team.

[ThePaintedArea]

You go into war with the army you have. Minnesota plays Rubio. We play Smart and Olynyk. Maybe some of these players will make improvement leaps similar to Avery's. That's what we're finding out.

Okay, I read a bit.

Some or a lot of players do not like the triangle. To me it seems authoritarian and stifling. Sometimes our system seems stale. We are not smooth yet at it on offense like San Antonio or Golden State. We are more like Cleveland relying on two guys (three if you add Bradley) to primarily get it done.

We have Isaiah and Al carrying the team on their backs and each game is an opportunity to see who develops or who gets pinned as a scrub. We're looking at you, Tyler Zeller and James Young.

I finally watched some Zizac video. You might be correct he is overrated. He had great stats against a short team. In another when the opponent had a big front court, he did fine, but nothing special. Fab Melo put up monster stats in some D-League games. Good point.

He has the build. He seems to be a Colton Iverson but with more skills and potential.

I guess Danny wanted to maximize the number of players in his asset collection. Zizac is raw. I agree.

I think we can sign him later in the year. His season will be over or it can be done. I think we will end up with a very good record, but I think Danny has to make a move for a real center or the Cinderella odds will take a hit. It could be Zizac for the stretch run. I think Jaylen Brown, Olynyk and Rozier have a 99% chance of sticking in the rotation.

Ante Žižić is only 19. I think he is a shoo in to eventually make the NBA. Or maybe the person above is correct. Zizac could arrive and then all of a sudden look like James Young or Jordan Mickey with his deer eyes stuck in headlights.

I've lost all faith in Zeller. Olynyk is okay. He's due to have a break out game. We are a very interesting team. We should probably all say a prayer for Amir. We need him for rim protection. Al Horford can't do it alone if we want to be a top five team.

Appreciate the response. I did put some time into crafting my post.

I take it "tl" means "too late". And "dr"?

Well anyway good luck to you.