Ainge on Toucher and Rich: "Consolidating quantity for quality"

[PhoSita]

Will somebody pay Sully big bucks in the off-season?

Coming into this season, I expected that Sullinger would probably put up another season similar to the last two -- around 13-14 points, 7-8 rebounds, a couple assists, and something like 45 / 30 / 70 shooting.

I figured yeah, somebody will pay him big bucks next summer, whether it's smart or not.

But now?

I'm actually not sure if he'll actually get that much in free agency.  Who is going to be in a rush to spend on an undersized center who's shooting well below 45% from the floor, can't really provide you with reliable floor spacing (large enough sample size now .. he'll be lucky to ever break 30% from deep for a season), and who has serious weight-related injury concerns?

I think somebody will give him a 3 or 4 year deal.  I'd be happy to let him go.  Let somebody else take that long term risk.  But I think whatever shine of "potential poor man's Kevin Love" Sully once had is gone now.


In any case, I'm ready to move on from Sullinger.  I think he is what he is, which is a flawed backup who excels at rebounding, is a decent passer, and doesn't do a lot else.  The Celts need to find better options (which might require just giving the rotation spot to younger guys and seeing what they can do).

[mctyson]

Thomas and Bradley are going nowhere.  The chance of us getting upgrades at either of those two positions, either via trade, FA, or draft, is low.  They are on very cap-friendly contracts. 

Sullinger is a different story.  Someone is going to offer him double-digits in FA.  I don't think we can or should match that given his condition and his lack of consistency on offense.  If we are not going to sign him he should be traded, just like Rondo.

Having said that....

The team is on a 43 win pace after losing 4 of 5.  Just prior to that they were near a 46 win pace, or just around where everyone thought they would be this year.  Now is not the time to panic, but is the time to demand results.

Ok but again, where is the value?

Sully is going to get overpaid this offseason, I agree, but you arent going to get anything of value for him at this point in the year.

Also Sully is our only good rebounder and our only strong player down low. Without Sully I think we would have tremendous trouble rebounding the ball.

I think he is more valuable to us, then nearly any other team. If you move him you make us a decent amount worse, kill us in games against the Cavs, Bulls or any other team that has good bigs and dont get anything in return.

If you move AB or IT the hit on the team is bigger, much bigger, but you actually get value and you have players like ET, Smart, Rozier, Hunter, and Young who could step up and grow in that position with either of them gone.

With Sully you just would move Mickey one notch up the rotation, not really allowing him to flourish.

Im not saying we must trade Thomas or Bradley, but I think trading Sully is dumb unless it comes in conjunction with other moves or brings us a bigtime rebounder.

I am not in favor of just trading Sullinger for the sake of trading him.  He is a good player, and I want him on this team long term.  But the facts are that he has a bad back at 23 years of age, a chronic injury that was serious enough to drop him from a top 10 pick to the early 20s where we (luckily) got him.

Danny has shown that he will not let players simply just walk away in free agency, for the most part, if he can get something back for them in return.  Perkins and Rondo were starters on the 2008 championship team, fan favorites, and Danny traded both of them, relatively in their prime, in the last  year of their deals because he didn't want to let them walk.

I think the Sully situation is very similar to Perkins, though Sully is a far superior talent.  Sully will get more than he is "worth" offered to him by a team this offseason, and we will not match it.  Danny I think is predicting this as well.  He has to trade him if that is the case.  Sully, Lee, and a couple 1sts could net us a nice wing or big that could move us well into contention in the East.

[obnoxiousmime]

Will somebody pay Sully big bucks in the off-season?

Coming into this season, I expected that Sullinger would probably put up another season similar to the last two -- around 13-14 points, 7-8 rebounds, a couple assists, and something like 45 / 30 / 70 shooting.

I figured yeah, somebody will pay him big bucks next summer, whether it's smart or not.

But now?

I'm actually not sure if he'll actually get that much in free agency.  Who is going to be in a rush to spend on an undersized center who's shooting well below 45% from the floor, can't really provide you with reliable floor spacing (large enough sample size now .. he'll be lucky to ever break 30% from deep for a season), and who has serious weight-related injury concerns?

I think somebody will give him a 3 or 4 year deal.  I'd be happy to let him go.  Let somebody else take that long term risk.  But I think whatever shine of "potential poor man's Kevin Love" Sully once had is gone now.


In any case, I'm ready to move on from Sullinger.  I think he is what he is, which is a flawed backup who excels at rebounding, is a decent passer, and doesn't do a lot else.  The Celts need to find better options (which might require just giving the rotation spot to younger guys and seeing what they can do).

You're right, I think his value has taken a huge hit and it's not clear he will get a huge contract regardless of the fact that practically every team will have cash to burn. That being said, I'm ready to move on even though he's still young. I've never been a big fan of his but even I didn't expect his play to be this disappointing. I have to wonder if he's checked out a little.

[Rondo9]

Will somebody pay Sully big bucks in the off-season?

Coming into this season, I expected that Sullinger would probably put up another season similar to the last two -- around 13-14 points, 7-8 rebounds, a couple assists, and something like 45 / 30 / 70 shooting.

I figured yeah, somebody will pay him big bucks next summer, whether it's smart or not.

But now?

I'm actually not sure if he'll actually get that much in free agency.  Who is going to be in a rush to spend on an undersized center who's shooting well below 45% from the floor, can't really provide you with reliable floor spacing (large enough sample size now .. he'll be lucky to ever break 30% from deep for a season), and who has serious weight-related injury concerns?

I think somebody will give him a 3 or 4 year deal.  I'd be happy to let him go.  Let somebody else take that long term risk.  But I think whatever shine of "potential poor man's Kevin Love" Sully once had is gone now.


In any case, I'm ready to move on from Sullinger.  I think he is what he is, which is a flawed backup who excels at rebounding, is a decent passer, and doesn't do a lot else.  The Celts need to find better options (which might require just giving the rotation spot to younger guys and seeing what they can do).

You're right, I think his value has taken a huge hit and it's not clear he will get a huge contract regardless of the fact that practically every team will have cash to burn. That being said, I'm ready to move on even though he's still young. I've never been a big fan of his but even I didn't expect his play to be this disappointing. I have to wonder if he's checked out a little.

You guys may not like him but I still do and feel that the celtics can give him a reasonable contract this summuer

[PhoSita]

You guys may not like him but I still do and feel that the celtics can give him a reasonable contract this summuer

It's not really a like / dislike thing.  Once upon a time, I was really excited about Sully.  Finally a big who can rebound and post-up a little!  A guy who can actually finish bunnies inside!

But the shine has come off for me.  The thing from my perspective is simply that Sullinger is not very good, and the Celts need to utilize roster spots and playing time to try and find guys who can help the team win more than just 40-45 games.  Even on a mediocre team, Sullinger is ideally just a bench guy.  Given how badly he's struggled to consistently score with efficiency, I wouldn't even want him in a bench role when the team finally gets really good again.

I'm also concerned that he peaked a year or two ago.  Undersized, overweight big men typically don't have long careers in this league.  Especially if their jumpshot is OK at best.  Add in back issues and Sully could seriously be done before he reaches age 28.

[SHAQATTACK]

Lee , Young , ET and Sully for Paul George.

[DefenseWinsChamps]

You guys may not like him but I still do and feel that the celtics can give him a reasonable contract this summuer

It's not really a like / dislike thing.  Once upon a time, I was really excited about Sully.  Finally a big who can rebound and post-up a little!  A guy who can actually finish bunnies inside!

But the shine has come off for me.  The thing from my perspective is simply that Sullinger is not very good, and the Celts need to utilize roster spots and playing time to try and find guys who can help the team win more than just 40-45 games.  Even on a mediocre team, Sullinger is ideally just a bench guy.  Given how badly he's struggled to consistently score with efficiency, I wouldn't even want him in a bench role when the team finally gets really good again.

I'm also concerned that he peaked a year or two ago.  Undersized, overweight big men typically don't have long careers in this league.  Especially if their jumpshot is OK at best.  Add in back issues and Sully could seriously be done before he reaches age 28.

Agreed.

Those overweight athletes have unusual strength though. Milsap and Green were both overweight once upon a time, but once they got into shape, their core strength and agility went from "enough to be in the NBA" to "good athlete."

That's been the hope with Sully, but its not happening. In the end, I think he takes the qualifying offer and then goes to a different team for less than 5 million a year.

[Celtics4ever]

Those overweight athletes have unusual strength though. Milsap and Green were both overweight once upon a time, but once they got into shape, their core strength and agility went from "enough to be in the NBA" to "good athlete."

That's been the hope with Sully, but its not happening. In the end, I think he takes the qualifying offer and then goes to a different team for less than 5 million a year.

He does not have the work ethic that those guys in terms of getting into shape.   He could not do it for a contract year, the light may never go off.   But weight can push people around just like muscle sometimes. 

[Hemingway]

We probably need to upgrade Sully if we want to move him now. I agree that we probably don't want to keep him long term and it would be good to get something while we can, but we need to finish out this season strong so we can sign some FAs. I really like Amir but he can only play so many minutes. Zeller and Lee don't cut it in a lot of match ups. I hope Danny is using Sully Lee and picks to make offers on guys like DMC, Howard, Melo, Gasol, KD exc. 

[obnoxiousmime]

Sometimes a player has to leave their original team for them to "get it." Gerald Green is an example, actually he had to be entirely out of the league for him to finally realize he needed to get his act together. Now he's a solid bench guy.

I don't think Sullinger is going to suddenly have the light bulb go off while he's still in Celtics green. Frankly, he's talented but he has a ceiling so I'm OK with letting him go.