David Lee complaining about minutes

[LarBrd33]

I guess I can see how if you don't care about wins you wouldn't care for those guys.  I happen to like wins, and I like Lee and Johnson as additions to this team.

I didn't like the acquisitions when they happened, because of the philosophy that seemed to be behind it.  I made that clear, as you know.

I was willing to accept it, and even get excited about it, if adding those guys made the team significantly better.  So far, it doesn't seem to me like their addition has made a big difference.  As I feared, their presence has contributed to younger guys who might have a future here getting shuffled to the bench.

So yeah, if all adding Lee and Amir gets us is a handful more wins that won't make a dang of difference toward actually competing in a playoff series ... I'll call it a waste.

i mean we probably could have just held Wallace as an expiring contract,  not given Amir 12 mil and traded Olynyk for someone like Dieng and we'd still be the same mediocre team.  I get your point.

But mid season, those amir and lee contracts might be key.

[PhoSita]

I guess I can see how if you don't care about wins you wouldn't care for those guys.  I happen to like wins, and I like Lee and Johnson as additions to this team.

I didn't like the acquisitions when they happened, because of the philosophy that seemed to be behind it.  I made that clear, as you know.

I was willing to accept it, and even get excited about it, if adding those guys made the team significantly better.  So far, it doesn't seem to me like their addition has made a big difference.  As I feared, their presence has contributed to younger guys who might have a future here getting shuffled to the bench.

So yeah, if all adding Lee and Amir gets us is a handful more wins that won't make a dang of difference toward actually competing in a playoff series ... I'll call it a waste.

i mean we probably could have just held Wallace as an expiring contract,  not given Amir 12 mil and traded Olynyk for someone like Dieng and we'd still be the same mediocre team.  I get your point.

But mid season, those amir and lee contracts might be key.

They could be.   I don't think any top shelf guys are gonna move at the deadline, so unless Ainge wants to trade a couple picks and Lee for Gallo, I suspect our veteran trade chips will stay put.

Amirs contract could still come into play around draft time, however.

[Hemingway]

Yeah, there probably wont be a Melo or DMC trade at the deadline. But what if there is? Just becasue something is unlikely doesn't mean you don't set yourself up to to be able to make a deal if the unlikely happens. We need to get a star and sooner rather than later so we need to set ourselves up to always have expiring deals and picks. Thats how we got KG and thats how we got Ray Allen.

Honestly I feel like half this board spends more times criticizing and crying that we didn't tank last year than they do watching the games. If you watch the games you would see that Amir is playing well and more often then not we are a better team when he is on the court.

It's so silly to say you only want championships. You don't know you will win one until you do. Sure we all had a lot more fun in 08 because we won it all than in 09 or 2010 but we had a real legit shot all those years, it just clicked 1 time and not the others. A few shots bouncing a little bit different and maybe we win in 09 or 2010 and not in 08. I hope I am being clear. You can say you only want rings and have no interest in being a good or great team. Good and great teams win rings. Sometimes. And Sometimes they don't. I really think it comes down to the difference of making your opinion while watching the games vs making your opinion the next day looking at a box score or advanced stats.

[mgent]

I'd complain too, he's playing much better than Jerebko right now.

[Lucky17]

I guess I can see how if you don't care about wins you wouldn't care for those guys.  I happen to like wins, and I like Lee and Johnson as additions to this team.

I didn't like the acquisitions when they happened, because of the philosophy that seemed to be behind it.  I made that clear, as you know.

I was willing to accept it, and even get excited about it, if adding those guys made the team significantly better.  So far, it doesn't seem to me like their addition has made a big difference.  As I feared, their presence has contributed to younger guys who might have a future here getting shuffled to the bench.

So yeah, if all adding Lee and Amir gets us is a handful more wins that won't make a dang of difference toward actually competing in a playoff series ... I'll call it a waste.

i mean we probably could have just held Wallace as an expiring contract,  not given Amir 12 mil and traded Olynyk for someone like Dieng and we'd still be the same mediocre team.  I get your point.

But mid season, those amir and lee contracts might be key.

They could be.   I don't think any top shelf guys are gonna move at the deadline, so unless Ainge wants to trade a couple picks and Lee for Gallo, I suspect our veteran trade chips will stay put.

Amirs contract could still come into play around draft time, however.

And Jerebko's. I wouldn't be surprised if that's what Ainge had in mind.

Lee could be used to acquire a pending free agent whose Bird Rights Ainge wants to acquire. DeRozan, Hibbert, Noah, etc.

[Tr1boy]

I'd complain too, he's playing much better than Jerebko right now.

Not on the defensive end.

[apc]

I guess he doesn't want to end up like Wallace and Bogans.
Two guys who came here with big contacts and were not part of the rotation. the Celtics was the end of the road for both.   
Lee has a legitimate reason to worry about his next season.
(don't get me wrong, i have no problem with Lee not playing, just seeing it from his side...)

[manl_lui]

apparently him and RJ are out for tonight's game...I wonder if something is brewing...just find it of a coincidence after this...

or it could be nothing

EDIT: nvm, I'm stupid, Lee - out with heel injury, RJ out with hip flexor injury

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

I guess I can see how if you don't care about wins you wouldn't care for those guys.  I happen to like wins, and I like Lee and Johnson as additions to this team.

I didn't like the acquisitions when they happened, because of the philosophy that seemed to be behind it.  I made that clear, as you know.

I was willing to accept it, and even get excited about it, if adding those guys made the team significantly better.  So far, it doesn't seem to me like their addition has made a big difference.  As I feared, their presence has contributed to younger guys who might have a future here getting shuffled to the bench.

So yeah, if all adding Lee and Amir gets us is a handful more wins that won't make a dang of difference toward actually competing in a playoff series ... I'll call it a waste.

i mean we probably could have just held Wallace as an expiring contract,  not given Amir 12 mil and traded Olynyk for someone like Dieng and we'd still be the same mediocre team.  I get your point.

But mid season, those amir and lee contracts might be key.

They could be.   I don't think any top shelf guys are gonna move at the deadline, so unless Ainge wants to trade a couple picks and Lee for Gallo, I suspect our veteran trade chips will stay put.

Amirs contract could still come into play around draft time, however.

And Jerebko's. I wouldn't be surprised if that's what Ainge had in mind.

Lee could be used to acquire a pending free agent whose Bird Rights Ainge wants to acquire. DeRozan, Hibbert, Noah, etc.

DeRozan would be nice, but Hibbert and Noah ... no thanks.

[crimson_stallion]

Not that surprised. He's had games where I thought he deserved the minutes and didn't get them. He's also had games where he deserved to ride the pine. He's just not consistent enough at this point to be getting 20-25 mins every single game and even though you could argue he deserves them over KO who has been even less consistent KO can hit 3s and spread the floor. Lee can't

No doubt, Steven's has a very difficult situation.  You can see that just by looking at the Per-36 minute stats of all our bigs:

David Lee: 15.5 pts, 9.3 reb, 4.1 ast, 1.0 stl, 0.6 blk, 51% FG, 76% FT
Amir Johnson: 11.6 pts, 9.2 reb, 2.7 ast, 1.1 stl, 1.8 blk, 54% FG, 30% 3PT, 59% FT
Jared Sullinger: 14.8 pts, 12.8 reb, 3.1 ast, 1.4 stl, 1.3 blk, 45% FG, 31% 3PT, 68% FT
Kelly Olynyk: 15.7 pts, 7.8 reb, 3.1 ast, 1.1 stl, 0.6 blk, 41% FG, 36% 3PT, 71% FT
Tyler Zeller: 19.8 pts, 7.3 reb, 1.9 ast, 0.6 stl, 0.6 blk, 51% FG, 78% FT

Looking at those stats it's very hard to argue that Lee doesn't deserve minutes - he's been producing just as well as any other big on our roster, really.  Yes he has been inconsistent - but so has every other big on the roster - at least as much as Lee.

So in his defense, I totally understand his position.

But if you were to give him minutes - who do you take them from?   

At first glance Amir Johnson looks like the least productive player overall, however he is the only player we have who can protect the rim, score at an efficient rate AND stretch the floor.  That combination of skills makes him difficult to replace.

Olynyk has been shooting poorly from the field.  However, his ability to stretch the floor, his impressive PG skills and his (surprisingly) outstanding defense have made him extremely valuable for us.   

Sully has, as usual, been horribly in consistent this year offensively.  But his ability to defend stronger/heavier big men in the post and his dominance on the boards have made him very valuable in his own right.  We don't really have other guys who can do those things, and there are certain match-ups where we would struggle if we didn't have Sully around.

That basically leaves Zeller and Lee on the outside looking in.  Both deserving of minutes, but just not enough to go around.

I do feel Boston should make a trade or two to bring more 'order' to their front court. 

I'd actually like to see us keep Lee rather than trade him, since his $12M expiring contract is very valuable to us (free cap space) and it seems silly to take something back just to get rid of  Lee, when he can just keep him and let him walk in free agency.

That leaves Sully and Zeller as the odd ones out, to me.  Sully is a quality player, but he still hasn't proven he can produce consistently for us, or that he can remain productive in major minutes.  Zeller is a solid player, but doesn't seem to have much impact when he's out there on the court.  Both players expire after this season and neither has been offered an extension - not much sense in giving them minutes for developmental purposes, only to risk losing them in a year.

May be best to trade Sully and Zeller, and try to get back a first rounder back at least.  Start Amir / Olynyk and bring Mickey / Zeller off the bench.  I could live with that.

[Celtics4ever]

Lee stinks on D bad.

[Surferdad]

I guess I can see how if you don't care about wins you wouldn't care for those guys.  I happen to like wins, and I like Lee and Johnson as additions to this team.

I didn't like the acquisitions when they happened, because of the philosophy that seemed to be behind it.  I made that clear, as you know.

I was willing to accept it, and even get excited about it, if adding those guys made the team significantly better.  So far, it doesn't seem to me like their addition has made a big difference.  As I feared, their presence has contributed to younger guys who might have a future here getting shuffled to the bench.

So yeah, if all adding Lee and Amir gets us is a handful more wins that won't make a dang of difference toward actually competing in a playoff series ... I'll call it a waste.

i mean we probably could have just held Wallace as an expiring contract,  not given Amir 12 mil and traded Olynyk for someone like Dieng and we'd still be the same mediocre team.  I get your point.

But mid season, those amir and lee contracts might be key.

They could be.   I don't think any top shelf guys are gonna move at the deadline, so unless Ainge wants to trade a couple picks and Lee for Gallo, I suspect our veteran trade chips will stay put.

Amirs contract could still come into play around draft time, however.

And Jerebko's. I wouldn't be surprised if that's what Ainge had in mind.

Lee could be used to acquire a pending free agent whose Bird Rights Ainge wants to acquire. DeRozan, Hibbert, Noah, etc.

DeRozan would be nice, but Hibbert and Noah ... no thanks.

I've always disliked Noah but man, what a lockdown defensive lineup you could have with Bradley, Smart, Crowder, Johnson and Noah.

[2short]

Not that surprised. He's had games where I thought he deserved the minutes and didn't get them. He's also had games where he deserved to ride the pine. He's just not consistent enough at this point to be getting 20-25 mins every single game and even though you could argue he deserves them over KO who has been even less consistent KO can hit 3s and spread the floor. Lee can't

No doubt, Steven's has a very difficult situation.  You can see that just by looking at the Per-36 minute stats of all our bigs:

David Lee: 15.5 pts, 9.3 reb, 4.1 ast, 1.0 stl, 0.6 blk, 51% FG, 76% FT
Amir Johnson: 11.6 pts, 9.2 reb, 2.7 ast, 1.1 stl, 1.8 blk, 54% FG, 30% 3PT, 59% FT
Jared Sullinger: 14.8 pts, 12.8 reb, 3.1 ast, 1.4 stl, 1.3 blk, 45% FG, 31% 3PT, 68% FT
Kelly Olynyk: 15.7 pts, 7.8 reb, 3.1 ast, 1.1 stl, 0.6 blk, 41% FG, 36% 3PT, 71% FT
Tyler Zeller: 19.8 pts, 7.3 reb, 1.9 ast, 0.6 stl, 0.6 blk, 51% FG, 78% FT

Looking at those stats it's very hard to argue that Lee doesn't deserve minutes - he's been producing just as well as any other big on our roster, really.  Yes he has been inconsistent - but so has every other big on the roster - at least as much as Lee.

So in his defense, I totally understand his position.

But if you were to give him minutes - who do you take them from?   

At first glance Amir Johnson looks like the least productive player overall, however he is the only player we have who can protect the rim, score at an efficient rate AND stretch the floor.  That combination of skills makes him difficult to replace.

Olynyk has been shooting poorly from the field.  However, his ability to stretch the floor, his impressive PG skills and his (surprisingly) outstanding defense have made him extremely valuable for us.   

Sully has, as usual, been horribly in consistent this year offensively.  But his ability to defend stronger/heavier big men in the post and his dominance on the boards have made him very valuable in his own right.  We don't really have other guys who can do those things, and there are certain match-ups where we would struggle if we didn't have Sully around.

That basically leaves Zeller and Lee on the outside looking in.  Both deserving of minutes, but just not enough to go around.

I do feel Boston should make a trade or two to bring more 'order' to their front court. 

I'd actually like to see us keep Lee rather than trade him, since his $12M expiring contract is very valuable to us (free cap space) and it seems silly to take something back just to get rid of  Lee, when he can just keep him and let him walk in free agency.

That leaves Sully and Zeller as the odd ones out, to me.  Sully is a quality player, but he still hasn't proven he can produce consistently for us, or that he can remain productive in major minutes.  Zeller is a solid player, but doesn't seem to have much impact when he's out there on the court.  Both players expire after this season and neither has been offered an extension - not much sense in giving them minutes for developmental purposes, only to risk losing them in a year.

May be best to trade Sully and Zeller, and try to get back a first rounder back at least.  Start Amir / Olynyk and bring Mickey / Zeller off the bench.  I could live with that.
[/quote
Tp
The per 36 on our bigs is weird.

[crimson_stallion]

Lee stinks on D bad.

Defensive Real Plus Minus for all 5 of Boston's key bigs (and their rank in the NBA):

Jared Sullinger: +2.54 (28th, top 7%)
Kelly Olynyk: +1.68 (63rd, top 15%)
Amir Johnson: +1.58 (69th, top 16%)
David Lee: +1.31 (91st, top 21%)
Tyler Zeller: +0.75 (131st, top 30%)

There are a total of 419 players on this list.  30 teams in total, with 5 starters on each team - that's roughly 150 starting players in the NBA.

So, it's fairly safe to say that any player falling in the top 150 on this list has been been  playing starting caliber defense, and any player falling in the top 75 or so has been playing above average starting caliber defense.

In fact if you look at Lee's DRPM stat / rank over the past 3 seasons (when the RPM stat started getting tracked), it suggests that he has been a much better defensive player in recent years than he has been given credit for:

2015/16: +1.31 (91st)
2014/15: -0.35 (150th)
2013/14: +1.35 (100th)

He may not be an elite defensive player, or even a very good defensive player.  But the advanced statistics indicate that for the past three years he has ranged between above average and good on the defensive end of the floor.

That three year stretch also covers a pretty large sample size (137 games @ 25.4 MPG) and a wide variety of scenarios (starter for GSW in 13/14, backup for GSW in 14/15, backup for Boston in 15/16) so it's pretty safe to say that those statistics are quite safe to refer to.

There is certainly no evidence here to suggest that David Lee "stinks on D".

My conclusion from all of this is that David Lee is probably a very similar defensive player to Kelly Olynyk.  Not not your traditional Dwight-like shot blocker/rim protector, but a good team defender who uses his experience/intelligence/awareness to read what his opponent is going to do, and beat them to their spots.

The stats actually don't surprise me at all.  I watched the game against Sacramento the other day and I saw what an incredible defensive job Lee did on Cousins - it was a masterpiece of a job.  He was physically outmatched beyond imagination (Cousins has about 2" of height, 5" of wingspan and 30 pounds of weight on Lee) but he did such a great job of leading Cousins to difficult spots and forcing him into bad shots.

If you check Cousins' stats that was easily his worst offensive game off the season, and most of that was Lee.

[crimson_stallion]

I guess I can see how if you don't care about wins you wouldn't care for those guys.  I happen to like wins, and I like Lee and Johnson as additions to this team.

I didn't like the acquisitions when they happened, because of the philosophy that seemed to be behind it.  I made that clear, as you know.

I was willing to accept it, and even get excited about it, if adding those guys made the team significantly better.  So far, it doesn't seem to me like their addition has made a big difference.  As I feared, their presence has contributed to younger guys who might have a future here getting shuffled to the bench.

So yeah, if all adding Lee and Amir gets us is a handful more wins that won't make a dang of difference toward actually competing in a playoff series ... I'll call it a waste.

i mean we probably could have just held Wallace as an expiring contract,  not given Amir 12 mil and traded Olynyk for someone like Dieng and we'd still be the same mediocre team.  I get your point.

But mid season, those amir and lee contracts might be key.

They could be.   I don't think any top shelf guys are gonna move at the deadline, so unless Ainge wants to trade a couple picks and Lee for Gallo, I suspect our veteran trade chips will stay put.

Amirs contract could still come into play around draft time, however.

And Jerebko's. I wouldn't be surprised if that's what Ainge had in mind.

Lee could be used to acquire a pending free agent whose Bird Rights Ainge wants to acquire. DeRozan, Hibbert, Noah, etc.

DeRozan would be nice, but Hibbert and Noah ... no thanks.

I've always disliked Noah but man, what a lockdown defensive lineup you could have with Bradley, Smart, Crowder, Johnson and Noah.

True

But also, what a terrible offensive lineup...