The real problem with our starting lineup

[max215]

This is the basketball version of confusing correlation with causation. Just because we played well in the second half of the year with Turner as the starter doesn't mean he was the cause of us playing well.

The C's played well by knocking down 3's, going small and switching on everything in the 2nd half of the year. They aren't doing any of those things now. It's not like our starting unit played great last year, the team was driven by the 2nd unit last year too.

Even if the team is better with Turner running the point (which I disagree with), you still have to admit that it is better for the team's long term success that we give Smart a chance to handle the ball rather than Turner who will be gone next year.

TP.

[PhoSita]

I'd really like to see Turner stuck to the end of the bench. I don't think he's useless or anything, but I don't think Smart needs him on the starting unit anymore, and putting him and IT together on the 2nd unit complicates ball movement and limits IT's contributions. Plus, putting those two out there kind of necessitates having Amir out there with them to provide a little interior D. If you start Amir and bring Zeller or Lee off the bench, our 2nd unit is gonna give up a lot of east baskets.

I'd be open to the idea of Jerebko starting at the 3, Amir at the 5 and having Crowder and Zeller coming off the bench, but we gotta be careful with Amir's minutes and starting him means a lot less time with Thomas. Plus, I feel like maybe first we should try putting Sullinger or Olynyk (my preference) in Lee's place first and run some offense through them. That starting unit needs spacing and I think Olynyk could help that offense take a step forward.

I don't think it would be a good idea to trot out a starting lineup of entirely younger guys.  Bradley should not be the veteran leader on the floor.  I think that's the biggest reason Lee is starting -- Brad wants to keep Amir and IT together, and so it's either gonna be Lee or ET helping to guide the starting unit. 

I agree that it's going to be important not to tax Amir's ankles with too many minutes, but he's the best player on the team right now, and the team can't keep getting off to such poor starts.

Having your best 5 man unit come off the bench is cute and all, but I don't think it's a good plan for long term success.

[Evantime34]

Do we think Tyler Zeller has declined precipitously, too?

Lee looks fine, to me, in how he moves.  I just think Zeller and Lee are both guys who thrive in space.  They looked good together in pre-season, especially their passing and overall IQ, but now it's the regular season and the perimeter shots aren't falling and things are grinding to a halt on offense.

The starting lineup makes sense from a size and skillset standpoint, but the lack of scoring, particularly the inability to make teams pay from deep, is just too great for it to work.


In general, I think the team is suffering from having too many mouths to feed.  Depth is awesome, but it's hard to ask some guys to come in and produce regardless of how inconsistent their minutes are, or how their role changes from game to game.  We had this problem last year, too, as I recall.


I think Stevens needs to cut the rotation down to 8 or 9 guys and just see what happens.  Yes, we have 11 or 12 guys on the team who deserve to play, but the team may be better with some of them sitting.


If Lee gets yanked from the starting lineup, I think you'd have to put Amir in there instead because (a) Amir's been our best all-around player so far and (b) that starting lineup needs a veteran presence and I agree that it should not be Evan Turner.



Crowder has stood out to me as a guy who is making the right moves and decisions on the floor, but his shooting ability just isn't up to the level he wants to play at.  I think he's miscast in the starting lineup for that reason.

The change I would propose is moving Amir, Sullinger, and Jerebko into the starting lineup in place of Crowder, Lee, and Zeller, and then just using Thomas, Olynyk, and either Lee or Zeller off the bench.

Keep Turner on the bench, and stick to four big men, with at least one big man who can space the floor out there at all times.

I think Lee  has looked good in terms of his horizontal movement. He hasn't had the same lift as in years past which is why he can no longer finish imo.

I like the idea of moving Sully and Amir into the starting lineup. As to Jerebko I like him as a big more than a 3 or at least him and Crowder as the 3/4. The team thrived going small last year, while the depth in the front court has caused us to go in the opposite direction.

Jerebko can actually shoot, though, which is why I want him out there on the wing in the starting lineup.  He's also pretty big for a wing.  Starting Smart (6'2''), Bradley (6'2''), and Crowder (6'4'') leaves the team looking very small in the starting lineup.  Not great. 

Jonas also brings better finishing at the rim.  He's had some nifty flip shots and floaters off drives through the first three games, while Crowder has struggled to finish any kind of shot.

I just think that if Jerebko is guarded by 3's he is less likely to be able to drive closeouts than against 4. With a diminished ability to drive his shots become more heavily contested.

Last year Jerebko and Crowder killed it as a pairing but usually it was at the 3/4 or sometimes even the 4/5. I think Jerebko loses a lot of his value playing with 2 bigs because his perimeter advantages are mitigated.

As far as Crowder struggling to finish, I think he is another guy who needs shots to be created for him either via anothers drive that causes the d to scramble or the fast break. Putting him with 3 other guys who don't create is really hurting him.

Where did you get the heights? Bradley is 6'2 but isn't Smart 6'4 and Crowder 6'6?

[PhoSita]

Last year Jerebko and Crowder killed it as a pairing but usually it was at the 3/4 or sometimes even the 4/5. I think Jerebko loses a lot of his value playing with 2 bigs because his perimeter advantages are mitigated.

As far as Crowder struggling to finish, I think he is another guy who needs shots to be created for him either via anothers drive that causes the d to scramble or the fast break. Putting him with 3 other guys who don't create is really hurting him.

Where did you get the heights? Bradley is 6'2 but isn't Smart 6'4 and Crowder 6'6?

I agree with you about Jerebko being better as a 4 and Crowder struggling when he doesn't have other guys to create for him. 

I don't think Jerebko is anything close to ideal as a starter, but he can hit an open three, which is why I think he's a better fit in our starting lineup right now.  Also, I think he's better able to create his own shot than Crowder, though he's not exactly great at it.


Smart had the same height measurements as Bradley at the draft combine, and Bradley is 6'2''.  Smart's sometimes listed as taller, but I don't think he actually is.

Crowder identified himself as 6'4'' on the radio broadcast on opening night, so that's where I'm getting that from.  He's always listed at closer to 6'6'', but I'll take it from him as to what his actual height is.

[mctyson]

The Celtics ended last season 24-12 with Evan Turner as their starting PG.

Why did we go away from that?
Because we signed Crowder and want to prop him up?
Because we need Smart to develop into a PG who brings the ball the up the court?

Fine. But at those valid reasons to lose games?

Smart, Bradley, Turner + 2 Bigs and lets recreate that magic we had at the end of last season.

I agree that Turner would help the starting 5 right now but I also like him coming off the bench.  Having said that, without a true PnR guy in the starting 5 there is literally no reason to start Zeller...he has to play with either Turner or IT.