Bird vs. LeBron, Part Deux

[ahonui06]

There are really only two categories I can see in which Lebron has beaten Bird for his career and they are PPG (+12%) and Free Throw Rate (+100%). 

Bird on the other hand has beat Lebron in rebounding (+40%), three point percentage (+3.5%) and FT% (+14%). 

So since Bird has won three categories to Lebron's one, I would give Bird the winner of the "tangibles / stats" category.

As far as intangibles go, there is no competition.  Bird was tougher, had higher basketball IQ (IMO), was more clutch, was a better leader, and was an absolute master of the mental game (i.e. taking opponents mind out of their game and letting them beat themselves).

There are going to be valid arguments to be made in both directions, but here is the thing that seals the deal to me - Bird did EVERYTHING well.  He had no weakness in his game.  He could score from anywhere on the court, he could rebound at an elite level, he could pass at an elite level, he could defend at an elite level (and did, consistently), he had leadership, he had toughness, and he is one of the greatest pure shooters to ever live

Lebron is great scorer but isn't as skilled a scorer - he's merely above average (rather than great) as a shooter and rebounder, he lacks toughness and leadership, and his defensive effort is too inconsistent.

If I'm building a team today with the choice of 30 year old bird or 30 year old Lebron (assuming both healthy) I'll take bird without a moment hesitation.

What about assists?  What about TS%  what about PER?  When you just pick and choose categories you can get whatever result you want.

  LeBron gets a few more assists since he's much more ball dominant than Bird was but Larry was a significantly better passer than James and had much better court vision.

except you can't really say that.  Their AST% aren't close (James is basically a full 10% better in his career and Bird's two highest seasons only were better than James' rookie year) and that is with Larry having much better teammates for the majority of his career.  And it isn't like either one played with a dominant passing PG, as both often led their teams in assists. 

Bird was a better rebounder (both in totals and rates), but that is about it (Bird was a better outside and foul shooter as well, but given the volume of shots difference, James actually has a higher TS% and PPS making him overall the more efficient scorer in addition to just scoring more in general).  I get we are Celtics fans and Bird is (and should be) king here, but the real SF king is in fact Lebron James.

The higher AST% is also loosely correlated to LeBron's higher USG% and overall ball dominance. He will have the opportunity to create more chances for assists.

Kobe's career USG% is right around James' but his AST% is right around Bird's.  Melo's career USG% is right around James, but his AST% is about half of James' and 10% lower than Bird's.  Steve Nash's USG% is lower than Bird's, but his AST% nearly doubles Bird.  USG% and AST% aren't really correlated at all.  They quite simply measure different things.  I mean John Stockton had a career AST% of 50.2, but his USG% was just 18.9.

Can't really bring Nash & Stockton into the comparison because they were pass first PG who always looked for the assist first compared to the shot.

I think the Melo & Kobe comparisons are valid though.

[BballTim]

Worth noting: I'm not clinging to statistics here, (I think Jason Williams was the best passer of all time, as I've said before I believe), just pointing out that the "well if you actually watched them play statement" can lead to a whole bunch of inarguable disagreements.

   Possibly, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily an inaccurate comment.

  I thought Williams was more of a "add razzle-dazzle to a pass" player than some other players, but again, I don't think that there's anything close to a set definition for "best passer".

[Big333223]

What might the first half of Lebron's career have looked like if he had a stable coach and a couple of good veterans to learn from? There's no way to know for sure but we can safely say that Bird had it a little easier coming into the league from that perspective. As far as I'm concerned, the level of success that those Cleveland teams did enjoy in spite of the roster around James is as great a testament to his talent as you can make.

People always say this, but I don't get it.

His 2009-10 team was pretty darn stacked for that point in time, remembering that this was before the whole "superfriend" era began, and few teams at the time (outside of Boston and LA) had more than one legit star player.

People forget that:

* Antawn Jamison was an 20/9 player for much of his career (he was basically on par with Chris Bosh, if not better)

* Mo Williams was an 18 PPG player just one year prior

* The four-man rotation of Shaq, Ilgauskas, Varejao and Hickson was quite possible the deepest front-court in the entire NBA

* Delonte West and Daniel Gibson were both very solid backup guards

I mean sure his roster may not have been as top heavy as a Ray/Pierce/KG/Rondo or Kobe/Gasol/Bynym but he still had quite a bit of help.

Jamison came over with just 25 games left.  Shaq played just 53 games the whole year and was a shell of his former self (just 22 minutes a game in the playoffs).  Ilgauskas was basically done that year.  He was under 21 minutes a game in the regular season and played in just 7 of the 11 post season games at under 10 minutes a game.  Varejao has always been a glorified role player.  JJ Hickson was in his second year and played under 8 minutes a game in the playoffs (and for good reason). 

Perhaps it is you that is misremembering things.  And just for the record, James was a 29/9/8 player on 53% from two, 40% from three that post season.  Maybe just maybe James' teammates weren't as good as you think they were.

I'll add that Jamison was 33 and in decline, Shaq was 37 and a role player at that point, and Mo Williams fell apart when Lebron left. Williams' all star selection (the year before) and Brown's COY Award are, to me, the best arguments for Lebron's greatness.

It's also just hard to argue that a team without a single other all star (that year) was "stacked".

[BballTim]

There are really only two categories I can see in which Lebron has beaten Bird for his career and they are PPG (+12%) and Free Throw Rate (+100%). 

Bird on the other hand has beat Lebron in rebounding (+40%), three point percentage (+3.5%) and FT% (+14%). 

So since Bird has won three categories to Lebron's one, I would give Bird the winner of the "tangibles / stats" category.

As far as intangibles go, there is no competition.  Bird was tougher, had higher basketball IQ (IMO), was more clutch, was a better leader, and was an absolute master of the mental game (i.e. taking opponents mind out of their game and letting them beat themselves).

There are going to be valid arguments to be made in both directions, but here is the thing that seals the deal to me - Bird did EVERYTHING well.  He had no weakness in his game.  He could score from anywhere on the court, he could rebound at an elite level, he could pass at an elite level, he could defend at an elite level (and did, consistently), he had leadership, he had toughness, and he is one of the greatest pure shooters to ever live

Lebron is great scorer but isn't as skilled a scorer - he's merely above average (rather than great) as a shooter and rebounder, he lacks toughness and leadership, and his defensive effort is too inconsistent.

If I'm building a team today with the choice of 30 year old bird or 30 year old Lebron (assuming both healthy) I'll take bird without a moment hesitation.

What about assists?  What about TS%  what about PER?  When you just pick and choose categories you can get whatever result you want.

  LeBron gets a few more assists since he's much more ball dominant than Bird was but Larry was a significantly better passer than James and had much better court vision.

except you can't really say that.  Their AST% aren't close (James is basically a full 10% better in his career and Bird's two highest seasons only were better than James' rookie year) and that is with Larry having much better teammates for the majority of his career.  And it isn't like either one played with a dominant passing PG, as both often led their teams in assists. 

Bird was a better rebounder (both in totals and rates), but that is about it (Bird was a better outside and foul shooter as well, but given the volume of shots difference, James actually has a higher TS% and PPS making him overall the more efficient scorer in addition to just scoring more in general).  I get we are Celtics fans and Bird is (and should be) king here, but the real SF king is in fact Lebron James.

The higher AST% is also loosely correlated to LeBron's higher USG% and overall ball dominance. He will have the opportunity to create more chances for assists.

Kobe's career USG% is right around James' but his AST% is right around Bird's.  Melo's career USG% is right around James, but his AST% is about half of James' and 10% lower than Bird's.  Steve Nash's USG% is lower than Bird's, but his AST% nearly doubles Bird.  USG% and AST% aren't really correlated at all.  They quite simply measure different things.  I mean John Stockton had a career AST% of 50.2, but his USG% was just 18.9.

   He's talking about James being much more ball dominant than Bird, and pointing to usg as a sign of that. It's also worth pointing out that James was generally surrounded by spot-up shooters, so his passes (much more than Bird's) consisted of drawing multiple defenders and then making an easy pass to an open teammate. If that's your definition of a great passer, so be it.

[BballTim]

Best passing SF in history?  Sure.

Best passer in history? I wouldn't go that far.

  Again, definitions differ, but I don't think I've ever seen another player with his vision and understanding of the game. People frequently called Bird the best passer ever when he played (again, not universally), and that was with Magic in his prime. I don't think I've seen enough "clearly better than Magic" passers since he retired to push Bird out of the discussion.

[Who]

I think Bird is the best passing non-PG in history.

LeBron is a drive and kick expert but he shows nowhere near the same range & versatility of passing and/or the vision that Larry Bird did in his overall passing.

[Moranis]

There are really only two categories I can see in which Lebron has beaten Bird for his career and they are PPG (+12%) and Free Throw Rate (+100%). 

Bird on the other hand has beat Lebron in rebounding (+40%), three point percentage (+3.5%) and FT% (+14%). 

So since Bird has won three categories to Lebron's one, I would give Bird the winner of the "tangibles / stats" category.

As far as intangibles go, there is no competition.  Bird was tougher, had higher basketball IQ (IMO), was more clutch, was a better leader, and was an absolute master of the mental game (i.e. taking opponents mind out of their game and letting them beat themselves).

There are going to be valid arguments to be made in both directions, but here is the thing that seals the deal to me - Bird did EVERYTHING well.  He had no weakness in his game.  He could score from anywhere on the court, he could rebound at an elite level, he could pass at an elite level, he could defend at an elite level (and did, consistently), he had leadership, he had toughness, and he is one of the greatest pure shooters to ever live

Lebron is great scorer but isn't as skilled a scorer - he's merely above average (rather than great) as a shooter and rebounder, he lacks toughness and leadership, and his defensive effort is too inconsistent.

If I'm building a team today with the choice of 30 year old bird or 30 year old Lebron (assuming both healthy) I'll take bird without a moment hesitation.

What about assists?  What about TS%  what about PER?  When you just pick and choose categories you can get whatever result you want.

  LeBron gets a few more assists since he's much more ball dominant than Bird was but Larry was a significantly better passer than James and had much better court vision.

except you can't really say that.  Their AST% aren't close (James is basically a full 10% better in his career and Bird's two highest seasons only were better than James' rookie year) and that is with Larry having much better teammates for the majority of his career.  And it isn't like either one played with a dominant passing PG, as both often led their teams in assists. 

Bird was a better rebounder (both in totals and rates), but that is about it (Bird was a better outside and foul shooter as well, but given the volume of shots difference, James actually has a higher TS% and PPS making him overall the more efficient scorer in addition to just scoring more in general).  I get we are Celtics fans and Bird is (and should be) king here, but the real SF king is in fact Lebron James.

The higher AST% is also loosely correlated to LeBron's higher USG% and overall ball dominance. He will have the opportunity to create more chances for assists.

Kobe's career USG% is right around James' but his AST% is right around Bird's.  Melo's career USG% is right around James, but his AST% is about half of James' and 10% lower than Bird's.  Steve Nash's USG% is lower than Bird's, but his AST% nearly doubles Bird.  USG% and AST% aren't really correlated at all.  They quite simply measure different things.  I mean John Stockton had a career AST% of 50.2, but his USG% was just 18.9.

   He's talking about James being much more ball dominant than Bird, and pointing to usg as a sign of that. It's also worth pointing out that James was generally surrounded by spot-up shooters, so his passes (much more than Bird's) consisted of drawing multiple defenders and then making an easy pass to an open teammate. If that's your definition of a great passer, so be it.

I know what he was saying, I was pointing out (by showing evidence) that there really isn't a correlation there.  As for the rest, who would you rather be passing to Danny Ainge, Dennis Johnson, Kevin McHale, and Robert Parish or Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Drew Gooden, Sasha Pavlovic, and Larry Hughes (you know the rest of the starting five on the 06/07 team that made the NBA Finals).  I think you are significantly overestimating the skill of these spot up shooters James was playing with, even in Miami the rotation wasn't exactly riddled with great outside shooters (Wade, Chalmers, Anderson, Anthony, Bosh, Haslem, etc. - sure Ray Allen was and Battier was pretty good, but that is about it). 

Bird was an excellent passer, may have even been better than James, but the lack of respect James gets is pretty astonishing.  James' instinct is really good when it comes to passing.  He is the best low post passer I've ever seen especially with his face to the basket.  He has great control and reads the defense really well. 

[D.o.s.]

You know who's a really underrated low post passer? Chris Webber. Today is Sacramento Kings appreciation day, I guess.

But he is physically capable of taking multiple bong rips.

If we're talking about all time greats surely Michael Phelps deserves a place at this table.

[BballTim]

There are really only two categories I can see in which Lebron has beaten Bird for his career and they are PPG (+12%) and Free Throw Rate (+100%). 

Bird on the other hand has beat Lebron in rebounding (+40%), three point percentage (+3.5%) and FT% (+14%). 

So since Bird has won three categories to Lebron's one, I would give Bird the winner of the "tangibles / stats" category.

As far as intangibles go, there is no competition.  Bird was tougher, had higher basketball IQ (IMO), was more clutch, was a better leader, and was an absolute master of the mental game (i.e. taking opponents mind out of their game and letting them beat themselves).

There are going to be valid arguments to be made in both directions, but here is the thing that seals the deal to me - Bird did EVERYTHING well.  He had no weakness in his game.  He could score from anywhere on the court, he could rebound at an elite level, he could pass at an elite level, he could defend at an elite level (and did, consistently), he had leadership, he had toughness, and he is one of the greatest pure shooters to ever live

Lebron is great scorer but isn't as skilled a scorer - he's merely above average (rather than great) as a shooter and rebounder, he lacks toughness and leadership, and his defensive effort is too inconsistent.

If I'm building a team today with the choice of 30 year old bird or 30 year old Lebron (assuming both healthy) I'll take bird without a moment hesitation.

What about assists?  What about TS%  what about PER?  When you just pick and choose categories you can get whatever result you want.

  LeBron gets a few more assists since he's much more ball dominant than Bird was but Larry was a significantly better passer than James and had much better court vision.

except you can't really say that.  Their AST% aren't close (James is basically a full 10% better in his career and Bird's two highest seasons only were better than James' rookie year) and that is with Larry having much better teammates for the majority of his career.  And it isn't like either one played with a dominant passing PG, as both often led their teams in assists. 

Bird was a better rebounder (both in totals and rates), but that is about it (Bird was a better outside and foul shooter as well, but given the volume of shots difference, James actually has a higher TS% and PPS making him overall the more efficient scorer in addition to just scoring more in general).  I get we are Celtics fans and Bird is (and should be) king here, but the real SF king is in fact Lebron James.

The higher AST% is also loosely correlated to LeBron's higher USG% and overall ball dominance. He will have the opportunity to create more chances for assists.

Kobe's career USG% is right around James' but his AST% is right around Bird's.  Melo's career USG% is right around James, but his AST% is about half of James' and 10% lower than Bird's.  Steve Nash's USG% is lower than Bird's, but his AST% nearly doubles Bird.  USG% and AST% aren't really correlated at all.  They quite simply measure different things.  I mean John Stockton had a career AST% of 50.2, but his USG% was just 18.9.

   He's talking about James being much more ball dominant than Bird, and pointing to usg as a sign of that. It's also worth pointing out that James was generally surrounded by spot-up shooters, so his passes (much more than Bird's) consisted of drawing multiple defenders and then making an easy pass to an open teammate. If that's your definition of a great passer, so be it.

I know what he was saying, I was pointing out (by showing evidence) that there really isn't a correlation there.  As for the rest, who would you rather be passing to Danny Ainge, Dennis Johnson, Kevin McHale, and Robert Parish or Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Drew Gooden, Sasha Pavlovic, and Larry Hughes (you know the rest of the starting five on the 06/07 team that made the NBA Finals).  I think you are significantly overestimating the skill of these spot up shooters James was playing with, even in Miami the rotation wasn't exactly riddled with great outside shooters (Wade, Chalmers, Anderson, Anthony, Bosh, Haslem, etc. - sure Ray Allen was and Battier was pretty good, but that is about it). 

  You're missing the "spot up shooter" part of the equation. Bird's teammates were better ballhandlers/passers than LeBron's, so they were less likely to just shoot the ball when they got it than LeBron's teammates. If more of your passes result directly in shots, you're more likely to get assists.

Bird was an excellent passer, may have even been better than James, but the lack of respect James gets is pretty astonishing.  James' instinct is really good when it comes to passing.  He is the best low post passer I've ever seen especially with his face to the basket.  He has great control and reads the defense really well.

  I'd say Sabonis and maybe Divac (to name two) were on LeBron's level as low post passers (especially Arvidis). I'd say LeBron is one of the best non-guard passers I've ever seen, which I wouldn't consider to be an astonishing lack of respect. He's just well below Bird in that category.

[Moranis]

There are really only two categories I can see in which Lebron has beaten Bird for his career and they are PPG (+12%) and Free Throw Rate (+100%). 

Bird on the other hand has beat Lebron in rebounding (+40%), three point percentage (+3.5%) and FT% (+14%). 

So since Bird has won three categories to Lebron's one, I would give Bird the winner of the "tangibles / stats" category.

As far as intangibles go, there is no competition.  Bird was tougher, had higher basketball IQ (IMO), was more clutch, was a better leader, and was an absolute master of the mental game (i.e. taking opponents mind out of their game and letting them beat themselves).

There are going to be valid arguments to be made in both directions, but here is the thing that seals the deal to me - Bird did EVERYTHING well.  He had no weakness in his game.  He could score from anywhere on the court, he could rebound at an elite level, he could pass at an elite level, he could defend at an elite level (and did, consistently), he had leadership, he had toughness, and he is one of the greatest pure shooters to ever live

Lebron is great scorer but isn't as skilled a scorer - he's merely above average (rather than great) as a shooter and rebounder, he lacks toughness and leadership, and his defensive effort is too inconsistent.

If I'm building a team today with the choice of 30 year old bird or 30 year old Lebron (assuming both healthy) I'll take bird without a moment hesitation.

What about assists?  What about TS%  what about PER?  When you just pick and choose categories you can get whatever result you want.

  LeBron gets a few more assists since he's much more ball dominant than Bird was but Larry was a significantly better passer than James and had much better court vision.

except you can't really say that.  Their AST% aren't close (James is basically a full 10% better in his career and Bird's two highest seasons only were better than James' rookie year) and that is with Larry having much better teammates for the majority of his career.  And it isn't like either one played with a dominant passing PG, as both often led their teams in assists. 

Bird was a better rebounder (both in totals and rates), but that is about it (Bird was a better outside and foul shooter as well, but given the volume of shots difference, James actually has a higher TS% and PPS making him overall the more efficient scorer in addition to just scoring more in general).  I get we are Celtics fans and Bird is (and should be) king here, but the real SF king is in fact Lebron James.

The higher AST% is also loosely correlated to LeBron's higher USG% and overall ball dominance. He will have the opportunity to create more chances for assists.

Kobe's career USG% is right around James' but his AST% is right around Bird's.  Melo's career USG% is right around James, but his AST% is about half of James' and 10% lower than Bird's.  Steve Nash's USG% is lower than Bird's, but his AST% nearly doubles Bird.  USG% and AST% aren't really correlated at all.  They quite simply measure different things.  I mean John Stockton had a career AST% of 50.2, but his USG% was just 18.9.

   He's talking about James being much more ball dominant than Bird, and pointing to usg as a sign of that. It's also worth pointing out that James was generally surrounded by spot-up shooters, so his passes (much more than Bird's) consisted of drawing multiple defenders and then making an easy pass to an open teammate. If that's your definition of a great passer, so be it.

I know what he was saying, I was pointing out (by showing evidence) that there really isn't a correlation there.  As for the rest, who would you rather be passing to Danny Ainge, Dennis Johnson, Kevin McHale, and Robert Parish or Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Drew Gooden, Sasha Pavlovic, and Larry Hughes (you know the rest of the starting five on the 06/07 team that made the NBA Finals).  I think you are significantly overestimating the skill of these spot up shooters James was playing with, even in Miami the rotation wasn't exactly riddled with great outside shooters (Wade, Chalmers, Anderson, Anthony, Bosh, Haslem, etc. - sure Ray Allen was and Battier was pretty good, but that is about it). 

  You're missing the "spot up shooter" part of the equation. Bird's teammates were better ballhandlers/passers than LeBron's, so they were less likely to just shoot the ball when they got it than LeBron's teammates. If more of your passes result directly in shots, you're more likely to get assists.

Bird was an excellent passer, may have even been better than James, but the lack of respect James gets is pretty astonishing.  James' instinct is really good when it comes to passing.  He is the best low post passer I've ever seen especially with his face to the basket.  He has great control and reads the defense really well.

  I'd say Sabonis and maybe Divac (to name two) were on LeBron's level as low post passers (especially Arvidis). I'd say LeBron is one of the best non-guard passers I've ever seen, which I wouldn't consider to be an astonishing lack of respect. He's just well below Bird in that category.

I didn't miss spot up shooter at all, just pointing out that they were Edited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline.ty spot up shooters and thus much more likely to miss. 

[BballTim]

There are really only two categories I can see in which Lebron has beaten Bird for his career and they are PPG (+12%) and Free Throw Rate (+100%). 

Bird on the other hand has beat Lebron in rebounding (+40%), three point percentage (+3.5%) and FT% (+14%). 

So since Bird has won three categories to Lebron's one, I would give Bird the winner of the "tangibles / stats" category.

As far as intangibles go, there is no competition.  Bird was tougher, had higher basketball IQ (IMO), was more clutch, was a better leader, and was an absolute master of the mental game (i.e. taking opponents mind out of their game and letting them beat themselves).

There are going to be valid arguments to be made in both directions, but here is the thing that seals the deal to me - Bird did EVERYTHING well.  He had no weakness in his game.  He could score from anywhere on the court, he could rebound at an elite level, he could pass at an elite level, he could defend at an elite level (and did, consistently), he had leadership, he had toughness, and he is one of the greatest pure shooters to ever live

Lebron is great scorer but isn't as skilled a scorer - he's merely above average (rather than great) as a shooter and rebounder, he lacks toughness and leadership, and his defensive effort is too inconsistent.

If I'm building a team today with the choice of 30 year old bird or 30 year old Lebron (assuming both healthy) I'll take bird without a moment hesitation.

What about assists?  What about TS%  what about PER?  When you just pick and choose categories you can get whatever result you want.

  LeBron gets a few more assists since he's much more ball dominant than Bird was but Larry was a significantly better passer than James and had much better court vision.

except you can't really say that.  Their AST% aren't close (James is basically a full 10% better in his career and Bird's two highest seasons only were better than James' rookie year) and that is with Larry having much better teammates for the majority of his career.  And it isn't like either one played with a dominant passing PG, as both often led their teams in assists. 

Bird was a better rebounder (both in totals and rates), but that is about it (Bird was a better outside and foul shooter as well, but given the volume of shots difference, James actually has a higher TS% and PPS making him overall the more efficient scorer in addition to just scoring more in general).  I get we are Celtics fans and Bird is (and should be) king here, but the real SF king is in fact Lebron James.

The higher AST% is also loosely correlated to LeBron's higher USG% and overall ball dominance. He will have the opportunity to create more chances for assists.

Kobe's career USG% is right around James' but his AST% is right around Bird's.  Melo's career USG% is right around James, but his AST% is about half of James' and 10% lower than Bird's.  Steve Nash's USG% is lower than Bird's, but his AST% nearly doubles Bird.  USG% and AST% aren't really correlated at all.  They quite simply measure different things.  I mean John Stockton had a career AST% of 50.2, but his USG% was just 18.9.

   He's talking about James being much more ball dominant than Bird, and pointing to usg as a sign of that. It's also worth pointing out that James was generally surrounded by spot-up shooters, so his passes (much more than Bird's) consisted of drawing multiple defenders and then making an easy pass to an open teammate. If that's your definition of a great passer, so be it.

I know what he was saying, I was pointing out (by showing evidence) that there really isn't a correlation there.  As for the rest, who would you rather be passing to Danny Ainge, Dennis Johnson, Kevin McHale, and Robert Parish or Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Drew Gooden, Sasha Pavlovic, and Larry Hughes (you know the rest of the starting five on the 06/07 team that made the NBA Finals).  I think you are significantly overestimating the skill of these spot up shooters James was playing with, even in Miami the rotation wasn't exactly riddled with great outside shooters (Wade, Chalmers, Anderson, Anthony, Bosh, Haslem, etc. - sure Ray Allen was and Battier was pretty good, but that is about it). 

  You're missing the "spot up shooter" part of the equation. Bird's teammates were better ballhandlers/passers than LeBron's, so they were less likely to just shoot the ball when they got it than LeBron's teammates. If more of your passes result directly in shots, you're more likely to get assists.

Bird was an excellent passer, may have even been better than James, but the lack of respect James gets is pretty astonishing.  James' instinct is really good when it comes to passing.  He is the best low post passer I've ever seen especially with his face to the basket.  He has great control and reads the defense really well.

  I'd say Sabonis and maybe Divac (to name two) were on LeBron's level as low post passers (especially Arvidis). I'd say LeBron is one of the best non-guard passers I've ever seen, which I wouldn't consider to be an astonishing lack of respect. He's just well below Bird in that category.

I didn't miss spot up shooter at all, just pointing out that they were ****ty spot up shooters and thus much more likely to miss.

  Somewhat more likely to miss, much more likely to shoot, so LeBron's more likely to get an assist from a pass than Bird.

[slamtheking]

Bird was an excellent passer, may have even been better than James, but the lack of respect James gets is pretty astonishing.  James' instinct is really good when it comes to passing.  He is the best a very good low post passer I've ever seen especially with his face to the basket.  He has great control and reads the defense really well. 

fixed it for accuracy.

I think the lack of respect is towards Bird, not Lebron.   No one is stating Lebron isn't a very good passer -- not even qualifying it as good for a forward, just plain very good.  Bird was better.  much better. best passer that wasn't a PG IMHO.   

how anyone can think there's a comparison between the two is beyond me. 

also, as far as post passing, Lebron isn't the best.  Very good at it to be sure, but not the best.  I'd take Walton, Kareem, Bird, Webber, Divac and Sarbonis over him without having to even think about it.  oh, add Magic to that list as well because he was incredible passing from the post.

[Big333223]

You know who's a really underrated low post passer? Chris Webber. Today is Sacramento Kings appreciation day, I guess.

Webber was incredible. He never really put it all together, though. But those years when Adelman was running the entire offense through Webber and Divac were some really interesting teams and fun to watch.

The thing that made Bird's passing so incredible was that he did it in the half court. He wasn't Magic or Nash or Kidd who mastered the fast break, he would see guys cutting to the basket or find the open man one way or another.

[ahonui06]

There are really only two categories I can see in which Lebron has beaten Bird for his career and they are PPG (+12%) and Free Throw Rate (+100%). 

Bird on the other hand has beat Lebron in rebounding (+40%), three point percentage (+3.5%) and FT% (+14%). 

So since Bird has won three categories to Lebron's one, I would give Bird the winner of the "tangibles / stats" category.

As far as intangibles go, there is no competition.  Bird was tougher, had higher basketball IQ (IMO), was more clutch, was a better leader, and was an absolute master of the mental game (i.e. taking opponents mind out of their game and letting them beat themselves).

There are going to be valid arguments to be made in both directions, but here is the thing that seals the deal to me - Bird did EVERYTHING well.  He had no weakness in his game.  He could score from anywhere on the court, he could rebound at an elite level, he could pass at an elite level, he could defend at an elite level (and did, consistently), he had leadership, he had toughness, and he is one of the greatest pure shooters to ever live

Lebron is great scorer but isn't as skilled a scorer - he's merely above average (rather than great) as a shooter and rebounder, he lacks toughness and leadership, and his defensive effort is too inconsistent.

If I'm building a team today with the choice of 30 year old bird or 30 year old Lebron (assuming both healthy) I'll take bird without a moment hesitation.

What about assists?  What about TS%  what about PER?  When you just pick and choose categories you can get whatever result you want.

  LeBron gets a few more assists since he's much more ball dominant than Bird was but Larry was a significantly better passer than James and had much better court vision.

except you can't really say that.  Their AST% aren't close (James is basically a full 10% better in his career and Bird's two highest seasons only were better than James' rookie year) and that is with Larry having much better teammates for the majority of his career.  And it isn't like either one played with a dominant passing PG, as both often led their teams in assists. 

Bird was a better rebounder (both in totals and rates), but that is about it (Bird was a better outside and foul shooter as well, but given the volume of shots difference, James actually has a higher TS% and PPS making him overall the more efficient scorer in addition to just scoring more in general).  I get we are Celtics fans and Bird is (and should be) king here, but the real SF king is in fact Lebron James.

The higher AST% is also loosely correlated to LeBron's higher USG% and overall ball dominance. He will have the opportunity to create more chances for assists.

Kobe's career USG% is right around James' but his AST% is right around Bird's.  Melo's career USG% is right around James, but his AST% is about half of James' and 10% lower than Bird's.  Steve Nash's USG% is lower than Bird's, but his AST% nearly doubles Bird.  USG% and AST% aren't really correlated at all.  They quite simply measure different things.  I mean John Stockton had a career AST% of 50.2, but his USG% was just 18.9.

   He's talking about James being much more ball dominant than Bird, and pointing to usg as a sign of that. It's also worth pointing out that James was generally surrounded by spot-up shooters, so his passes (much more than Bird's) consisted of drawing multiple defenders and then making an easy pass to an open teammate. If that's your definition of a great passer, so be it.

I know what he was saying, I was pointing out (by showing evidence) that there really isn't a correlation there.  As for the rest, who would you rather be passing to Danny Ainge, Dennis Johnson, Kevin McHale, and Robert Parish or Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Drew Gooden, Sasha Pavlovic, and Larry Hughes (you know the rest of the starting five on the 06/07 team that made the NBA Finals).  I think you are significantly overestimating the skill of these spot up shooters James was playing with, even in Miami the rotation wasn't exactly riddled with great outside shooters (Wade, Chalmers, Anderson, Anthony, Bosh, Haslem, etc. - sure Ray Allen was and Battier was pretty good, but that is about it). 

  You're missing the "spot up shooter" part of the equation. Bird's teammates were better ballhandlers/passers than LeBron's, so they were less likely to just shoot the ball when they got it than LeBron's teammates. If more of your passes result directly in shots, you're more likely to get assists.

Bird was an excellent passer, may have even been better than James, but the lack of respect James gets is pretty astonishing.  James' instinct is really good when it comes to passing.  He is the best low post passer I've ever seen especially with his face to the basket.  He has great control and reads the defense really well.

  I'd say Sabonis and maybe Divac (to name two) were on LeBron's level as low post passers (especially Arvidis). I'd say LeBron is one of the best non-guard passers I've ever seen, which I wouldn't consider to be an astonishing lack of respect. He's just well below Bird in that category.

I didn't miss spot up shooter at all, just pointing out that they were ****ty spot up shooters and thus much more likely to miss.

06-07 Cavs

Larry Hughes was subpar at 33% from 3 point land on 3 3s per game - Played 37MPG
Sasha Pavlovic was excellent at 41% from 3 point land on 2 3s per game - Played 23MPG
Damon Jones was excellent at 39% from 3 point land on 4 3s per game - Played 20MPG
Donyell Marshall was serviceable at 35% from 3 point land on 3 3s per game - Played 17MPG
Daniel Gibson was great at 42% from 3 point land on 2 3s per game - Played 17MPG

LeBron actually had solid perimeter shooters surrounding him in 06/07