Respect to Lebron

[crimson_stallion]

Can't disagree, and I despise Lebron extremely.

I will say Golden State has been off (I worry they may be the 2012 Thunder part deux) but nonetheless, Lebron's been phenomenal. If he wins this, there's no doubt in my mind he's a top 5 player of all time. If he does something like this again, he's in the Jordan-Russell discussion. Just putting that out there now. I'm sure I'll get flamed for saying that.

I don't think Jordan ever won a title when surrounded by as little talent as Lebron has right now. 

The Bulls were a 55 win team without Jordan.   We have plenty of proof that the Cavs/Heat without LeBron don't even make the playoffs.

That's stretching it regarding the Heat.

Chris Bosh missed almost half the season, and Wade was (as always) constantly on and off the injured list.  They still were a threat to us making the playoffs up until about the last 2 or 3 games. 

With a healthy Bosh and Wade they would have made the playoffs almost certainly, and probably would have done better against Cleveland than we did.

[sahara]

I remember when 18 year old Lebron tried to kiss Ashanti on live MTV.

[Moranis]

Jordan is more popular, because in the mid 90s we didn't have internet forums overanalyzing his advanced stats and a cynical mob tearing apart every interview and every aspect of his personal life.   There was jealousy when Jordan was around as well, but we didn't have global hubs to seethe together.   You'll never see another Jordan (in terms of popularity) for the same reason you'll never see a globally beloved band or musician like the Beatles or Michael Jackson.   Different era.  Too many options for one thing to hold our focus.   We saw the "Be Like Mike" commercials.   We all digested the universal praise heaped on him.  We were on board with movies like Space Jam...  and we all bought into the idea that he was a superhuman force of nature.  We didn't have forums for ceaselessly debating the "weak competition" Jordan was facing off against (Post Bird/Magic), how the league was letting him get away with murder nightly, or how the league was literally changing rules to match Jordan's skillset (like when they moved in the 3 point line for him).   We didn't have endless internet debates about Scottie Pippen's impact in relation to Jordan and how Pippen's two-way game was the true leader of the team (55 wins without Jordan) ala debates claiming D-Wade was the best player on the Heat.  It definitely helped that he was the greatest basketball player of all time and probably the greatest athlete of our generation.  It didn't hurt that some of us were children at the time... I remember watching the Michael Jordan cartoon and never once did I think, "Dude needs to focus on basketball instead of pimping his brand everywhere". 

If LeBron played in the 90s era, he'd be just as beloved.   

If LeBron played in the 80s era (where fictional athletes like Hulk Hogan had legions of followers and Bird/Magic was an unchecked spectacle that carried the league), he'd be glorified as well.

But LeBron plays in 2015... and every step he makes gets overly scrutinized.   When you cut through the bs, you start to realize he's one of the greatest athletes ever playing at peak level.  He's accomplishing extraordinary things.  And for kids growing up today, LeBron might be the closest they will ever have to Ali/Tyson/Jordan.

How do you come to the conclusion that "all" people feel the same way you do about Jordan? I couldn't stand him and I know many others who don't like him either! The only thing you got right is that the people who don't/didn't like him didn't have a way to voice it. I'm sure people would have gladly said what they thought if there was a forum for it.

Just bc I can admit they are beast players doesn't mean I have to like them! Respect for their play doesn't change my mind about them. Jordan and LBJ are/were great but I can't stand them! Majority of my dislike is b/c they were/are the "enemy" and some of it is the way the act, I can't stand LBJ's fakeness and whiny attitude and Jordan is a ...k!


Why is that a lot of people I see talking about how great LBJ is are some of the same people who can't stand Kobe? Say what you want about that jerk, he is also one of the greats of history. Where are the threads singing his praises?

Kobe is no where near the team player James is.  He is also a rapist.  Kobe is basically a better version of Carmelo Anthony.  There is a lot to dislike in their games and their off the court personas.  You really don't have that with James.

[Moranis]

Can't disagree, and I despise Lebron extremely.

I will say Golden State has been off (I worry they may be the 2012 Thunder part deux) but nonetheless, Lebron's been phenomenal. If he wins this, there's no doubt in my mind he's a top 5 player of all time. If he does something like this again, he's in the Jordan-Russell discussion. Just putting that out there now. I'm sure I'll get flamed for saying that.

I don't think Jordan ever won a title when surrounded by as little talent as Lebron has right now. 

The Bulls were a 55 win team without Jordan.   We have plenty of proof that the Cavs/Heat without LeBron don't even make the playoffs.

That's stretching it regarding the Heat.

Chris Bosh missed almost half the season, and Wade was (as always) constantly on and off the injured list.  They still were a threat to us making the playoffs up until about the last 2 or 3 games. 

With a healthy Bosh and Wade they would have made the playoffs almost certainly, and probably would have done better against Cleveland than we did.

Wade played in 8 more games last year than James' last year in Miami.  Sure Bosh only played in 44 games, but they also had Dragic for 26 (so those two's 70 games isn't much less than Bosh's 79 the year before).  Not to mention they had Deng for 72 games, found Whiteside out of nowhere, added Ennis, and still had Haslem, Anderson, Chalmers, and Cole. 

So they lost James, Allen, and Lewis from the playoff rotation and added Deng, Whiteside, Ennis, and Dragic (for 26 games).  And went from 54 to 37 wins.  And for the record they were under .500 with Bosh with about the same win percentage as they finished.  This wasn't a team that fell off after Bosh went down.  They were basically a 37 win team all season long.

[crimson_stallion]

I don't see any comparison to Jordan.  Never have.  The only way they compare is the way they are/were officiated.  The messiah is bigger, faster, quicker, a better passer, a better defender, a better rebounder, and a better ball handler.  What he is doing in this series is beyond amazing.

Ok, as much as I respect what Lebron can do (hence why I created this thread) I have to disagree with a lot of that.

I'll agree that Lebron is bigger and a better passer.  MAYBE faster end to end.  That's about it.

Jordan was definitely quicker than Lebron.  People dramatically overrate Lebron's quickness.  He is very quick no doubt, especially for 6'8", 250 pound guy, but there are a number of guards in the NBA who have been as quick or quicker in terms of their first step and/or  lateral mobility.  Guys like Rondo (before the injuries), Westbrook, Derek Rose (before the injuries), Barbosa (in his prime), Iggy (in his prime) were all quicker than Lebron.  I'd argue that James Harden, Dwyane Wade (in his prime) and Kevin Durant are probably all as quick as (or quicker than) Lebron.  Oh, and Michael Jordan is on that list to - his firsts step was ridiculous quick.

Jordan was also a better defender, by a pretty significant margin.  Lebron has averaged 1.6 steals and 0.7 blocks per 36 for his career, while Jordan averaged 2.2 steals and 0.8 blocks per 36 despite being shorter, skinnier and playing the guard position.  Jordan has won far more all-defensive first team awards, and played with absolutely relentless effort on the defensive end.  He was an elite defensive player.  I'll go so far as to say that Jordan was probably one of the top 10 defensive guards of all time.

Lebron is a good defensive player, but not a great one.  He has the ability to be a great one if he really wanted to be, but unfortunately his effort level on that end of the floor is way too inconsistent.  For example there was one possession in yesterday's game where Lebron took a contested shot and hit the floor, then started complaining to the official.  Golden State got the ball, and had a 5-on-4 situation on the other end of the court and Lebron never ran back.  Heck, he didn't even WALK back.  He stayed on the opposite end of the floor for the entire duration of that possession arguing with the official about the no-call.  This is not the preseason we're talking about here - this is the NBA finals.  You're playing without two of your three best players against the team with the best regular season record in the league, your team is tied 1-1 in the series, and you're fighting to take a series lead.  This is very much the type of scenario where one possession could be the difference between an NBA title or Playoff elimination...and you feel it's more important to argue a call then to get back on defense.  Nobody but Lebron does that in an NBA finals game and gets away with it.  An absolutely perfect example of the difference between Lebron's mentality vc Jordan's.   

Better rebounder?  Even that is a questionable.  Jordan averaged 6 rebounds per 36 minutes for his career, while Lebron by comparison has averaged 6.5 rebounds per 36 for his career.  That's despite the fact that Lebron is a SF who spends many minutes playing at PF, while Jordan was a guard who spend some minutes playing at SF.  Oh and the fact that Jordan;s numbers include his entire career (including the tail end of it, where the numbers drop) while Lebron's only include his career up until now (which is still prime).   

Now as I said I'm the one who started this thread to begin with, so I am 100% hats off to Lebron for what he's achieving right now.  I believe that puts him right up there in the discussion as one of the top 5 or 10 greatest players in history.  But to suggest he's better than Jordan in all of those criteria is just not accurate.

[crimson_stallion]

Wade played in 8 more games last year than James' last year in Miami. 

How is that relevant? 

When Wade missed games during Lebron's tenure there it didn't matter as much because if Wade was out, they still had Lebron (and vice versa).

With no Lebron on the team Wade is now Miami's best player, and he missed 1/4 of the season due to injuries.

Sure Bosh only played in 44 games, but they also had Dragic for 26 (so those two's 70 games isn't much less than Bosh's 79 the year before).  Not to mention they had Deng for 72 games, found Whiteside out of nowhere, added Ennis, and still had Haslem, Anderson, Chalmers, and Cole.

Chris Bosh is a 20 PPG scorer, a 10 time All-Star, and the only big man on the Miami Heat roster with anything even resembling an offensive game.

None of those guys (nor all of them combined) come close to making up for what Miami loses when he's out.   

So they lost James, Allen, and Lewis from the playoff rotation and added Deng, Whiteside, Ennis, and Dragic (for 26 games).  And went from 54 to 37 wins.  And for the record they were under .500 with Bosh with about the same win percentage as they finished.  This wasn't a team that fell off after Bosh went down.  They were basically a 37 win team all season long.

Actually, they did go down after Bosh got injured.  For a while there they started going on a pretty good run and were easily in the playoff race, then Bosh got hurt and the fell out of the playoffs.

So you're saying they had Dagic for as many games as they lost Wade, basically.  You really think Dragic comes close to making up for Wade? I think not...

Nor do Deng, whiteside and Ennis come close to making up for the loss of Ray Allen and Chris Bosh (for half the season). 

Of course Miami are going to be better with James than without him, but it's pure insanity to try to suggest that Miami wouldn't have been a playoff team if Lebron wasn't there all those years.  Every Miami team in the big-3 era would have been a playoff team without Lebron - they just never would have been Championship teams.

[Moranis]

I don't see any comparison to Jordan.  Never have.  The only way they compare is the way they are/were officiated.  The messiah is bigger, faster, quicker, a better passer, a better defender, a better rebounder, and a better ball handler.  What he is doing in this series is beyond amazing.

Ok, as much as I respect what Lebron can do (hence why I created this thread) I have to disagree with a lot of that.

I'll agree that Lebron is bigger and a better passer.  MAYBE faster end to end.  That's about it.

Jordan was definitely quicker than Lebron.  People dramatically overrate Lebron's quickness.  He is very quick no doubt, especially for 6'8", 250 pound guy, but there are a number of guards in the NBA who have been as quick or quicker in terms of their first step and/or  lateral mobility.  Guys like Rondo (before the injuries), Westbrook, Derek Rose (before the injuries), Barbosa (in his prime), Iggy (in his prime) were all quicker than Lebron.  I'd argue that James Harden, Dwyane Wade (in his prime) and Kevin Durant are probably all as quick as (or quicker than) Lebron.  Oh, and Michael Jordan is on that list to - his firsts step was ridiculous quick.

Jordan was also a better defender, by a pretty significant margin.  Lebron has averaged 1.6 steals and 0.7 blocks per 36 for his career, while Jordan averaged 2.2 steals and 0.8 blocks per 36 despite being shorter, skinnier and playing the guard position.  Jordan has won far more all-defensive first team awards, and played with absolutely relentless effort on the defensive end.  He was an elite defensive player.  I'll go so far as to say that Jordan was probably one of the top 10 defensive guards of all time.

Lebron is a good defensive player, but not a great one.  He has the ability to be a great one if he really wanted to be, but unfortunately his effort level on that end of the floor is way too inconsistent.  For example there was one possession in yesterday's game where Lebron took a contested shot and hit the floor, then started complaining to the official.  Golden State got the ball, and had a 5-on-4 situation on the other end of the court and Lebron never ran back.  Heck, he didn't even WALK back.  He stayed on the opposite end of the floor for the entire duration of that possession arguing with the official about the no-call.  This is not the preseason we're talking about here - this is the NBA finals.  You're playing without two of your three best players against the team with the best regular season record in the league, your team is tied 1-1 in the series, and you're fighting to take a series lead.  This is very much the type of scenario where one possession could be the difference between an NBA title or Playoff elimination...and you feel it's more important to argue a call then to get back on defense.  Nobody but Lebron does that in an NBA finals game and gets away with it.  An absolutely perfect example of the difference between Lebron's mentality vc Jordan's.   

Better rebounder?  Even that is a questionable.  Jordan averaged 6 rebounds per 36 minutes for his career, while Lebron by comparison has averaged 6.5 rebounds per 36 for his career.  That's despite the fact that Lebron is a SF who spends many minutes playing at PF, while Jordan was a guard who spend some minutes playing at SF.  Oh and the fact that Jordan;s numbers include his entire career (including the tail end of it, where the numbers drop) while Lebron's only include his career up until now (which is still prime).   

Now as I said I'm the one who started this thread to begin with, so I am 100% hats off to Lebron for what he's achieving right now.  I believe that puts him right up there in the discussion as one of the top 5 or 10 greatest players in history.  But to suggest he's better than Jordan in all of those criteria is just not accurate.

You aren't accounting for pace.  For example, Jordan's career average in TRB% was 9.4, James is at 10.8.  Jordan's best was 11.6 and he over 10 just 4 times.  James on the other hand peaked at 13.1 and had 8 seasons over 10 including 7 over 11.  James is a much better rebounder than Jordan.  Now he is bigger and plays SF rather than SG, but they aren't really comparable rebounders.  And for the record, Jordan's last two seasons in Washington he was at 9.4 and 9.7 so at or above his career average.  He didn't fade as his career went on.

The one thing you don't mention, though is that James is a better shooter than Jordan.  Career thus far from 2 - MJ, 51% - LJ, 53.5% & from 3 - MJ, 32.7% - LJ, 34.2%.  James has a similar edge in TS% and eFG%. 

James is a much better passer (34.5% vs. 24.9% in career AST%).  So couple that with the better shooting and James is a much better overall offensive player than Jordan.  Jordan certainly was a better defender, but your example on James you could find countless examples of Jordan taking plays off on defense, you just don't remember them because they happened 20 years ago and not last night. 

I said somewhere that if I needed to win one game I'd take Jordan, but if I was starting a team I'd take James and I wouldn't give it a second thought in either situation.  Jordan just had that insane drive to will his team to victory from his first day in the league till his last day, but that insane drive made him a much worse teammate on the whole.  Great for winning individual games, not so great to rest your franchise on. James has the better overall skill set, is a genuinely caring and good dude (could you ever see James' HOF induction speech being like Jordan's), and is the better guy to place your franchise in the hands of. 

[Moranis]

Wade played in 8 more games last year than James' last year in Miami. 

How is that relevant? 

You noted that they lost more games because Wade missed time.  I pointed out that he actually missed more time the year before.  If you can't see how that is relevant, I'm not sure what else I can do as it is clearly relevant to that discussion.

When Wade missed games during Lebron's tenure there it didn't matter as much because if Wade was out, they still had Lebron (and vice versa).

Um, that is the point. 

With no Lebron on the team Wade is now Miami's best player, and he missed 1/4 of the season due to injuries.

and yet still played in more games than the year before, kind of shows just what James meant to the team, don't you think?

Sure Bosh only played in 44 games, but they also had Dragic for 26 (so those two's 70 games isn't much less than Bosh's 79 the year before).  Not to mention they had Deng for 72 games, found Whiteside out of nowhere, added Ennis, and still had Haslem, Anderson, Chalmers, and Cole.

Chris Bosh is a 20 PPG scorer, a 10 time All-Star, and the only big man on the Miami Heat roster with anything even resembling an offensive game.

None of those guys (nor all of them combined) come close to making up for what Miami loses when he's out.   

Um, Dragic averaged 16.6 points and 5.3 assists.  Compared to Bosh's 21.1 points and 2.2 assists that is nearly the same amount of point production from Dragic alone.  Deng is a multiple time all star and career 16 point scorer as well.

[

So they lost James, Allen, and Lewis from the playoff rotation and added Deng, Whiteside, Ennis, and Dragic (for 26 games).  And went from 54 to 37 wins.  And for the record they were under .500 with Bosh with about the same win percentage as they finished.  This wasn't a team that fell off after Bosh went down.  They were basically a 37 win team all season long.

Actually, they did go down after Bosh got injured.  For a while there they started going on a pretty good run and were easily in the playoff race, then Bosh got hurt and the fell out of the playoffs.

The Heat were 1-4 in Bosh's last 5 games and 3-4 in the 7 before that.  4-8 in his last 12 games.  That is actually a worse pace than the 37 wins they ended up.  And those 12 games included games against the Knicks, TWolves, Pistons, Hornets, Celtics, Pacers, and Bucks, not exactly a gauntlet.

So you're saying they had Dagic for as many games as they lost Wade, basically.  You really think Dragic comes close to making up for Wade? I think not...

Nope.  Didn't say that at all. 

Nor do Deng, whiteside and Ennis come close to making up for the loss of Ray Allen and Chris Bosh (for half the season). 

Again you are mixing up statements.

Of course Miami are going to be better with James than without him, but it's pure insanity to try to suggest that Miami wouldn't have been a playoff team if Lebron wasn't there all those years.  Every Miami team in the big-3 era would have been a playoff team without Lebron - they just never would have been Championship teams.

The Heat were a mid 40 win team before James arrived and weren't a playoff team after he left and contrary to your assertions were not on pace to be one before Bosh got hurt.  They were 19-25 in games Bosh played this year.  That isn't a playoff pace, in fact it is worse then they ended up.  Adding Dragic actually gave the team the boost they needed to get close to the playoffs by going 13-13 in the games Dragic played.

[MBunge]

When comparing LeBron to Jordan, or any players from those respective eras, let's remember that LeBron has been playing under new rules intentionally designed to benefit the offense.

It's like comparing LeBron and Bird.  You have to consider both the faster pace Bird played at and that he never dominated the ball like LeBron.

Mike

[Celtics18]

Larry Bird was beloved by Celtics fans, but you can bet your bottom dollar that he wasn't universally loved.

The media, not surprisingly, treated him pretty kindly.

[GreenPride17]

Agreed this dude is legit. Any Celtics fan would secretly love to have him play in green

[mgent]

I just wanted to say, respect to Lebron.

Throughout the season and the Playoffs everybody has been writing off what Lebron has achieved for his team. 

First it was "Lebron needs two other stars to win". 
Then it was "The East is weak, he'd fail in the West'
Then it was "He had an easy playoff run"

I must admit, I pretty much said every one of those things myself, at some point or other.

But right now, Lebron has no stars playing alongside him, and he's playing a Western Conference team that's pretty much healthy, and that happens to be THE best team in the NBA this year...and he has the Cavs up 2-1.

If the Cavs are able to beat the Warriors without Irving or Love, then that will pretty much silence any argument that anybody can ever make against Lebron being one of the greatest to ever play the game.

Even if the Cavs do get eliminated, the fact that they even competed against the Warriors in their current state is a testament to just how great a player Lebron is. 

I may dislike him as a person.  He he may be arrogant. He may even be an entitled, princess Diva. 

But whatever he is, the man has game...gotta respect that.   

Disclaimer: I know that the flaming will come my way for what I'm about to write.  I'm ready to accept that.

The East IS weak, and LeBron absolutely has had one of the EASIEST playoff runs of all time up until the series.  Bulls and Hawks?  Hahaha.  I'll continue to stand by my assertion that if the Wiz were healthy they would have beat the Cavs without much trouble.  Also, LeBron would be having just as much trouble with the Dubs that he would have had with any of the Western Conference playoff teams, let alone if he had to play those guys all year long.

That take cares of points 2 and 3, but as for your first point, losing Love improved the Cavs' defense beyond belief.  The Cavs went through a huge transformation when that happened, I thought that was pretty obvious to everyone.  And to a lesser extent, losing Irving allows LeBron to have way more scoring oppurtunities and way more ball-handling oppurtunities.  Having the ball in the best player's hands all the time is obviously an improvement over a top 10 player's hands.

At the same time, despite not having stars, LeBron has one of the best supporting casts 1-9 that he's ever had.  Guys like Mosgov and Thompson are putting more pressure at the rim than he's ever seen.  Smith is probably the best combination of shooter/slasher/ball-handler he's ever played with.  Shumpert is a DWade-level defender, and a better shooter.  He's got a hard-nosed PG who doesn't mind being a pure catch-and-shooter.

LeBron lost some all-stars, and that hurts his surrounding talent.  But when you're the best player in the world, having players who compliment you correctly/perfectly is more important than all-stars who take the ball out of your hands.

LeBron has simply found players who compliment him in the right way.  Finally.

Still don't think he's winning this series.  =P

[D.o.s.]

When comparing LeBron to Jordan, or any players from those respective eras, let's remember that LeBron has been playing under new rules intentionally designed to benefit the offense.

Mike

Entirely unlike the shortened three point line that Jordan, a notoriously poor three point shooter, operated under during his the majority of his second three peat. Entirely unlike that.