It's time to clear out the roster before CBS loses the team

[guava_wrench]

Breaking News: Bad team loses games.

Fans in agreement, must be the coach's fault. More at 6.

The team's losing games, that's not a surprise or an indictment of the coach.

The team's without direction.  The players are clearly getting frustrating.  Inconsistent effort, and no consequences.  Newcomers are speaking out about the obvious lack of accountability.

That's on the coach.

Meh. The newcomers came from a good team. They really can't tell the difference between effort and just being bad and clueless. They are used to playing with a really good group of starters in Dallas. The guys starting in Boston are mediocre, just like Crowder.

But those mediocre guys were able to create situations where Crowder got open looks from deep. Crowder didn't create his own opportunities.

[kraidstar]

Is it too salty to bring up the threads where people claimed Stevens was going to be/already was a better coach than Doc yet?

But don't you remember that the Celtics won despite Doc?  That they would have won 2-3 championships with a legitimate coach.  People love to bash coaches.

I remember a couple of horrible Celtics teams before Garnett and Allen when everyone on the roster played hard on both ends of the floor and generally was on board with the program. You can say all you want about Doc, but he knew how to manage people.

that's funny, I saw plenty of C's games post KG-injury (the Age of Sheed) where the team didn't play hard.  so many nights of dogging it and not putting away crappy teams early like they used to the first couple of years with KG/Ray.  That's on Doc.

Will say this about Stevens, you nailed it with your comments above

I don't think he knows who his best scorer is, or how to get good scoring chances over the course of a game. He seems to lack a core defensive philosophy, or at least has no idea how to translate his intentions into on-court performance.

Granted there's no star players on the roster but there does not seem to be any offensive sets nor any defensive scheme -- at least none being demonstrated on the court.

i was thinking the other day "when exactly did rondo stop playing hard," and i tend to think it was after rasheed wallace showed up. that was when the whole team started dogging it on a regular basis. "turning it on and off" at will like rasheed's pistons used to do.

[kozlodoev]

But those mediocre guys were able to create situations where Crowder got open looks from deep. Crowder didn't create his own opportunities.

Um, a Jae Crowder open three is the type of the shot you live with as a defensive team, not the type of shot you're looking to take away.

[D.o.s.]

Is it too salty to bring up the threads where people claimed Stevens was going to be/already was a better coach than Doc yet?

But don't you remember that the Celtics won despite Doc?  That they would have won 2-3 championships with a legitimate coach.  People love to bash coaches.

I remember a couple of horrible Celtics teams before Garnett and Allen when everyone on the roster played hard on both ends of the floor and generally was on board with the program. You can say all you want about Doc, but he knew how to manage people.

that's funny, I saw plenty of C's games post KG-injury (the Age of Sheed) where the team didn't play hard.  so many nights of dogging it and not putting away crappy teams early like they used to the first couple of years with KG/Ray.  That's on Doc.

Will say this about Stevens, you nailed it with your comments above

I don't think he knows who his best scorer is, or how to get good scoring chances over the course of a game. He seems to lack a core defensive philosophy, or at least has no idea how to translate his intentions into on-court performance.

Granted there's no star players on the roster but there does not seem to be any offensive sets nor any defensive scheme -- at least none being demonstrated on the court.

i was thinking the other day "when exactly did rondo stop playing hard," and i tend to think it was after rasheed wallace showed up. that was when the whole team started dogging it on a regular basis. "turning it on and off" at will like rasheed's pistons used to do.

Simmons-brewed easy scapegoating there. The pistons also didn't turn it on and off as much as they were given the short end of the rule stick after winning a ring.

[hwangjini_1]

But those mediocre guys were able to create situations where Crowder got open looks from deep. Crowder didn't create his own opportunities.

Um, a Jae Crowder open three is the type of the shot you live with as a defensive team, not the type of shot you're looking to take away.

he is shooting lifetime at 32.5% from 3. yeah, if my team is defending him i let him toss it up.

[D.o.s.]

Timely and Related:

ESPN analyst P.J. Carlesimo, who made the leap from coaching college (at Seton Hall) to the NBA (with the Portland Trail Blazers) two decades ago, has an important criteria for the success or failure of any current college coach hoping to follow in his footsteps:

"Contract situation, relationship with the general manager or owner," he said. "I think that would be critical. In terms of the actual coaching, you just need a good roster."

Carlesimo is the only head coach hired directly from the NCAA ranks without any NBA experience to post an above-.500 record in recent NBA history, and he freely admits that's a product of the Blazers' talent. Portland was three seasons removed from losing in the NBA Finals when Carlesimo arrived, and while the Blazers traded Clyde Drexler midway through Carlesimo's first season, they replaced him with veteran talent.

That's the exception for most college coaches, who take over teams that are either just starting the rebuilding process (like Tim Floyd in Chicago and the most recent hire, Brad Stevens in Boston) or have already bottomed out.

"You're dead in the water before you even start," Carlesimo said.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/12126330/college-coaches-change-perceptions-nba-jump-nba

[kozlodoev]

Timely and Related:

ESPN analyst P.J. Carlesimo, who made the leap from coaching college (at Seton Hall) to the NBA (with the Portland Trail Blazers) two decades ago, has an important criteria for the success or failure of any current college coach hoping to follow in his footsteps:

"Contract situation, relationship with the general manager or owner," he said. "I think that would be critical. In terms of the actual coaching, you just need a good roster."

Carlesimo is the only head coach hired directly from the NCAA ranks without any NBA experience to post an above-.500 record in recent NBA history, and he freely admits that's a product of the Blazers' talent. Portland was three seasons removed from losing in the NBA Finals when Carlesimo arrived, and while the Blazers traded Clyde Drexler midway through Carlesimo's first season, they replaced him with veteran talent.

That's the exception for most college coaches, who take over teams that are either just starting the rebuilding process (like Tim Floyd in Chicago and the most recent hire, Brad Stevens in Boston) or have already bottomed out.

"You're dead in the water before you even start," Carlesimo said.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/12126330/college-coaches-change-perceptions-nba-jump-nba

Good old PJ is a horrible coach. But at least he volunteers that he only won because he had talent (and he didn't even win too much at that).

[D.o.s.]

PJ's bona fides as it relates to this discussion are plainly spelled out in the start of the third paragraph. 

edit: what a ninja edit, Koz.

[kozlodoev]

PJ's bona fides as it relates to this discussion are plainly spelled out in the start of the third paragraph. 

edit: what a ninja edit, Koz.

Ninja edit because I realized the text talks about replacing Clyde, not about replacing PJ. The bottom line is the same, though: PJ is a crappy coach who rode his players' coattails to several ~45 win seasons and first-round playoff exits.

Not entirely sure how this pertains to Stevens, though. His problem is not that he's losing games, it is that he looks completely lost himself.

[mctyson]

There are two groups to blame for the recent effort put forth by this team: the front office (Ainge) and the players.

Prior to the Rondo trade, there was rarely a game when this team did not play hard and compete.  Remember all those blown double digit leads?  Taking Toronto, Cleveland, etc...down to the wire?  That was a Brad Stevens coached team.  Effort was never an issue.

Danny Ainge and the front office nuked the effort when they traded Rondo for 3 bench players.  We don't need no stinkin bench players.  We need a leader, and for better or worse that was Rondo.

This team completely lacks an on-court leader.  Every successful team in the NBA has one.  We arguably had two with Pierce and KG.  These are the guys who are accountable, the guys who won't take crap efforts, who will stand up for the coach when someone is benched for lazy play, who will step up when the pressure is on, who will calm the team during periods of change.

Coach Stevens cannot create that person out of thin air.  I would like to believe Marcus Smart can be that guy but he is a rookie.  Other than that there is no one else who fits this mold.  It should be Jeff Green but he is clearly the most unaccountable player on the roster.

So lay off Stevens.  If you wan't to critique his plays, fine.  If you want to hammer him for not benching players permanently so we have tighter rotations, I will accept that (though that is Ainge's fault).  If you want to complain that Young isn't playing enough, OK.

But please do not criticize the coach because professional millionaires are not accountable and veterans like Jeff Green couldn't care less about being a leader.  That's on them, and it's on the front office who signed or traded for these players.  As a season ticket holder who pays for this, it disgusts me, but at least I know it's not the coach.

[dreamgreen]

I was impressed with the job Stevens did last year.  He had a number of veteran role players and young guys on a roster that made no sense.  It could have gotten very ugly on and off the court, yet everyone played hard, shared the ball, and had a decent if not good attitude.  It was mostly the same deal for the first part of this season until the Rondo trade.  That signaled to the team that it is definitely tanking and added three new guys to an already oversized rotation.  Now the rotations are a mess, guys don't know what's expected of them, some are playing hero ball, the ball movement is awful, and guys looks disinterested.  Now, Crowder is speaking up and even Sully made comments and Stephens may be on verge of losing the team.  It's time for Ainge to clean house before things get real ugly.

Ainge's most difficult job will be to move Green.  Green appears to be disinterested the last several games and he needs to go soon.  I'd hope to get a late first for him, but being a rental that might be difficult.  He needs to auction him off and take the best offer even if it's just for second round picks.  Nelson needs to go too as he doesn't fit this team and has killed the ball movement when he's played.  He only makes $3 million so he shouldn't be difficult to unload even if he fetches nothing in return.  I believe I heard they have to wait another 6 weeks to trade him.  If that's true, I'll tell him to take a six week vacation.  Bass and Thornton aren't going to fetch anything in return.  They are rentals, make decent salaries, and are mediocre role players.  As far as I know they have decent attitudes, but they are taking minutes away from young guys who need to play.  I'd just cut the two of them and eat their salaries.  Wallace is another veteran, but he seems content not playing and helping the younger guys, so I'd leave him in that role.

After making these moves, Stephens will be able to condense the rotations and give guys defined roles.  I'd play Smart, Turner, and Bradley 30 minutes a game and not worry about Pressey's minutes.  He's only a fringe level player.  I'd split time between Crowder and Young at the three, giving more minutes to and starting Crowder.  Zeller, Sully, Olynyk, and Wright will be in the rotation at the 4 and 5.  I'd give the bulk of the minutes to the former three and 15-20 to Wright. 

After these changes, they would likely be headed to the 4th or 5th worst record in the league.  But at least the rotations will make sense and guys will know their role.  The young guys will have a chance to develop while the team heads towards a top draft pick.

Starters
Smart - 30 mins
Turner - 30 mins
Crowder - 28 mins
Sully - 25-30 mins
Zeller - 25- 30 mins

Rotation guys
Avery Bradley - 30 mins
Young - 20 mins
Olynyk 25-30 mins
Wright 15- 20 mins

end of roster
Pressey - less than 10 mins
Wallace - dnp

Gone
Green - trade
Nelson - trade/bench/cut
Bass - cut
Thornton - cut

They may have to sign a couple of D leaguers to fill out the roster depending on what they get in return for Green

Olynlyk need to be in the group that gets cut.  team would instantly be twice as physical and twice as tough if he gets 0 minutes on the court.

Kelly is young and has had an up and down season and yes he is soft. But I think if he was used at PF and played in the high post with a physical center he could be really good. He is a good passer (maybe the best on the team now) and understands the game, if we had someone that could drive to the hoop also he would shine IMO.

Of course I could be wrong but I'd like to see.

[Surferdad]

There are two groups to blame for the recent effort put forth by this team: the front office (Ainge) and the players.

Prior to the Rondo trade, there was rarely a game when this team did not play hard and compete.  Remember all those blown double digit leads?  Taking Toronto, Cleveland, etc...down to the wire?  That was a Brad Stevens coached team.  Effort was never an issue.

Danny Ainge and the front office nuked the effort when they traded Rondo for 3 bench players.  We don't need no stinkin bench players.  We need a leader, and for better or worse that was Rondo.

This team completely lacks an on-court leader.  Every successful team in the NBA has one.  We arguably had two with Pierce and KG.  These are the guys who are accountable, the guys who won't take crap efforts, who will stand up for the coach when someone is benched for lazy play, who will step up when the pressure is on, who will calm the team during periods of change.

Coach Stevens cannot create that person out of thin air.  I would like to believe Marcus Smart can be that guy but he is a rookie.  Other than that there is no one else who fits this mold.  It should be Jeff Green but he is clearly the most unaccountable player on the roster.

So lay off Stevens.  If you wan't to critique his plays, fine.  If you want to hammer him for not benching players permanently so we have tighter rotations, I will accept that (though that is Ainge's fault).  If you want to complain that Young isn't playing enough, OK.

But please do not criticize the coach because professional millionaires are not accountable and veterans like Jeff Green couldn't care less about being a leader.  That's on them, and it's on the front office who signed or traded for these players.  As a season ticket holder who pays for this, it disgusts me, but at least I know it's not the coach.

I fully agree about the lack of a floor leader. However, Stevens himself said today that the players are wrong to blame themselves, yet he also said that lack of effort and lack of sense of purpose is to blame. Problem is, he can't have it both ways. He is being inconsistent in what he is saying.  Source: celtics.com

[cman88]

people wanted to drive Doc Rivers out of town after he coached some horrible C's teams...but once he got good players, people viewed him as one of the best coaches in the NBA.

only problem is, we had Pierce back then. we had an all-star starting point....Right now we dont know what we have.

[Celtics4ever]

Right now we dont know what we have.

Let me inform you, we have two nice young talents in Young ( who needs to work on his handles and D) and Smart ( who needs to work on his shot).   We have 3 nice rotation bench bigs of which none are rim protectors, one is good rebounder but horrible on D and lazy, one had a nice shot but only shows up once in a while and both of these are unathletic.   The third has a nice jump hook and can run the floor.   We have a  third string PG and a washed up PG.   We have a rehab PG/SG/SF who is having one of his most efficient years ever but still has holes in his game.   We have two trade bait power forwards who are athletic and can defend, one can shoot but not rebound and one can block shots but not shoot anything but a dunk or layup.   We also have uncle sleepy, who can be good one game and disappear the next.   We also have two hustle guys with big mouths, one has been playing and one has not.