Lets Blow It Up

[pearljammer10]

For starters, trade away KG to a team with some Cap Space for someone who hurts they're cap (a player with a BAD contract, but still has to play)

How would trading an expiring contract for a player on a bad contract help our future?

Haha...Nice.

[Jon]

As disturbing as this is, it's not like we haven't seen it before the past two seasons.  And in '09-10 we came within a few minutes of winning a title after playing this badly for 2/3 of the season. 

Again, this is highly discouraging, but I wouldn't totally give up yet.

[SHAQATTACK]

I have no problem discussing the future now.  Mulling over all the scenarios.  No disrespect for our present team. We still got a star power coach in Doc , with heavy cap room and savvy drafting and trading by DA we're gonna be ok after this year.

For now..  I'm gonna let Doc earn his pay and put on the best show with the talent hes' got.

I won't be crying about a Lottery pic, beats getting trouced out in the first round like rag dolls.

[Fan from VT]

Really, we are set to rebuild without any trades.

-Maybe (unlikely, i think), we'll turn it around with these players and make a little noise.

-If not, we have all our own picks, an extra high teens low 20s clips pick, and just Rondo/Pierce under contract after this season.


Therefore, if we are "blowing it up" and rebuilding, only a few things make sense (note that examples are not that well thought out!):

-Trade an expiring but useful player (KG, Ray Allen or Bass) to a contender or borderline contender or sucker team for another dead-weight but expiring guy plus a pick or cost-controlled but not yet ready for prime time player. This maintains our same capspace but gives us an extra asset (and probably ensures a good pick in this draft). Or, trading KG for 1/2 expiring and 1/2 bad contract and assets to maintain most of the flexibility and get a bettr asset or two

Examples:
+ Allen to Dall for Terry and Beaubois
+ Allen to GS for Kwame, Brandon Rush, Pick
+ Allen to Mem for Mayo, Arthur, pick
+ Allen to Minn for Beasley, Brad Miller, pick
+ Allen to NJ for Okur, pick
+ KG to NO for Kaman, Landry, Pick
+ Allen to TOR for Barbosa, Baylss, Pick

-Trade Pierce for a shorter contract plus an asset or two to a contender. Increases cap flexibility, and he's still legit and under contract, so maybe you get a better return. Or, if available, trade Pierce to a team missing a legit SF for a few upside guys. Downside: Emotinally, I'd still love pierce to retire in green.

Examples:
+ any of the Ray Allen deals above, plus filler for salary and extra assets
+ To Cleveland for Jameson and a couple picks
+ To Dallas for Terry, Mahinmi, Beaubois, pick
+ To GS for Biedrins (amnesty), Ekpe Udoh or Clay Thompson, pick
+ To Milwaukee for Stephen Jackson, Delfino, Livingston, Sanders, Picks
+ To Minny for Webster, Beasley, Miller, Picks
+ To Utah for Milsap, Bell, picks

+

-Trade Rondo for a couple upside guys. Depends on where you see Rondo's ceiling as an individual talent and your evaluation of upside guys.

Examples:
+ Rondo for Cousins, Udrih
+ TO Ind for Foster, Jones, Collison, Pick
+ To Mem for Conley, Arthur, Cunningham, picks
+ ToMil for Jennings, Steph jackson, picks
+ with something to NO for Kaman, Henry, picks
+ some filler to Philly for Holliday, Nocioni, picks
+ To Tor for ed davis, picks, calderon
+ To utah for devin harris, one of their bigs (Kanter, favors, pick

[Casperian]

Red was willing to trade Ed Macauley for a pick. He traded the first overall pick for the third pick and an underachieving center. He picked a player at #6 who would join us a year later. There was a pattern to this madness, as he always made his own luck instead of waiting for the leprechaun.

Big difference between trading for lottery picks and players you've targeted, as opposed to trading for late first rounders (which is all, realistically, that would be included in a KG trade.   I'm not sure that a Bill Russell / Kevin McHale comparison works here.

I would rather have a ton of cap space than a decent player on a bad contract plus a late #1 pick.

The current Celtics were assembled through trading a bunch of players picked at the end or outside the lottery. Chris Paul and C. Anthony were traded to the Clippers/Knicks for a bunch of good, young players.

I disagree that a late first is all we could realistically expect. Our big three still hold value for some teams in the league, and if we´re willing to take on a bad contract in return, I think we can expect to get more than that.
Even if that´s the case, KG isn´t the only player we could trade. In a deep draft, a bunch of late 1´s could net us a pick in the 10-15 range. We could do something like this, for example:

http://blog.newsok.com/thunderrumblings/2011/12/13/how-the-thunder-benefited-from-one-of-the-worst-trades-in-nba-history/

To be honest, I´m not even sure that blowing it up includes KG and Ray. If both are willing to sign for another year at a significantly reduced price and role, I would keep them around. Trading them just for the sake of getting younger is indeed pointless and counter-productive, in my opinion. However, if it raises our chances to get our hands on one or two of these high potential rookies, I´m all for it, as that should be our absolute top priority, big four or not.

[Inside-Out]

Red was willing to trade Ed Macauley for a pick. He traded the first overall pick for the third pick and an underachieving center. He picked a player at #6 who would join us a year later. There was a pattern to this madness, as he always made his own luck instead of waiting for the leprechaun.

Big difference between trading for lottery picks and players you've targeted, as opposed to trading for late first rounders (which is all, realistically, that would be included in a KG trade.   I'm not sure that a Bill Russell / Kevin McHale comparison works here.

I would rather have a ton of cap space than a decent player on a bad contract plus a late #1 pick.

The current Celtics were assembled through trading a bunch of players picked at the end or outside the lottery. Chris Paul and C. Anthony were traded to the Clippers/Knicks for a bunch of good, young players.

I disagree that a late first is all we could realistically expect. Our big three still hold value for some teams in the league, and if we´re willing to take on a bad contract in return, I think we can expect to get more than that.
Even if that´s the case, KG isn´t the only player we could trade. In a deep draft, a bunch of late 1´s could net us a pick in the 10-15 range. We could do something like this, for example:

http://blog.newsok.com/thunderrumblings/2011/12/13/how-the-thunder-benefited-from-one-of-the-worst-trades-in-nba-history/

To be honest, I´m not even sure that blowing it up includes KG and Ray. If both are willing to sign for another year at a significantly reduced price and role, I would keep them around. Trading them just for the sake of getting younger is indeed pointless and counter-productive, in my opinion. However, if it raises our chances to get our hands on one or two of these high potential rookies, I´m all for it, as that should be our absolute top priority, big four or not.

Just to be clear, we traded a #5 lottery pick for a Ray Allen that was coming off double-ankle surgery.

And KG was traded for two players picked just outside the lottery straight from high school that were perhaps both possible 20 pt scorers, including the best young post player in the game at the time (GGreen at 17 and Al Jefferson at 15, I think?), plus two first rounders.  So yes, in KG's case, he was traded for middle-round picks...FOUR of them, two already drafted, one of whom was asserting himself as a top big man.

So it's not like we got all-stars for marginal picks and filler.  We paid quite a bit for KG, and a #5 lotto pick in a solid draft for Ray coming of surgery wasn't exactly a complete steal.  We needed strong assets to pull these guys in, and we don't have that kind of asset now.

[Casperian]

Just to be clear, we traded a #5 lottery pick for a Ray Allen that was coming off double-ankle surgery.

And KG was traded for two players picked just outside the lottery straight from high school that were perhaps both possible 20 pt scorers, including the best young post player in the game at the time (GGreen at 17 and Al Jefferson at 15, I think?), plus two first rounders.  So yes, in KG's case, he was traded for middle-round picks...FOUR of them, two already drafted, one of whom was asserting himself as a top big man.

So it's not like we got all-stars for marginal picks and filler.  We paid quite a bit for KG, and a #5 lotto pick in a solid draft for Ray coming of surgery wasn't exactly a complete steal.  We needed strong assets to pull these guys in, and we don't have that kind of asset now.

You just made a compelling argument to blow it up and trade the big three for picks, in my opinion. It would take us years of losing to acquire something similar to a #5 pick (unless you think Rondo would do it) and a bunch of middle-round picks unless we act now and trade our players for picks.

[Inside-Out]

Just to be clear, we traded a #5 lottery pick for a Ray Allen that was coming off double-ankle surgery.

And KG was traded for two players picked just outside the lottery straight from high school that were perhaps both possible 20 pt scorers, including the best young post player in the game at the time (GGreen at 17 and Al Jefferson at 15, I think?), plus two first rounders.  So yes, in KG's case, he was traded for middle-round picks...FOUR of them, two already drafted, one of whom was asserting himself as a top big man.

So it's not like we got all-stars for marginal picks and filler.  We paid quite a bit for KG, and a #5 lotto pick in a solid draft for Ray coming of surgery wasn't exactly a complete steal.  We needed strong assets to pull these guys in, and we don't have that kind of asset now.

You just made a compelling argument to blow it up and trade the big three for picks, in my opinion. It would take us years of losing to acquire something similar to a #5 pick (unless you think Rondo would do it) and a bunch of middle-round picks unless we act now and trade our players for picks.

Got to respectfully disagree, though yes, it does seem that having multiple picks and expirings (to be used for filler) are needed to get a star.  So trading our big names for picks seems to make sense,

however, we have all of our own picks plus the Clips, and if we keep stinking it up this year (a possiblity, especially now that we need a coach that can manage rotations/lineups and don't have a stacked roster where you can just trot out 5 guys and they're work it out...whew) ours might be a mid-1st, so...

KG plus the two 2012 picks and a conditional 2014 1st for an extended Howard at the deadline!

Rondo
Ray
JGreen
Bass
Howard

Paul Pierce as 6th man in 2013!

This season, we fill the middle, get fresher legs out there, and perhaps make a run at # 18!

Rondo/Dooling
Ray/Moore (I love his methodical, controlled game, but perhaps doesn't make the playoff 9-man rotation)
Paul/Pietrus
Bass/Wilcox
Howard/JO

[Casperian]

Just to be clear, we traded a #5 lottery pick for a Ray Allen that was coming off double-ankle surgery.

And KG was traded for two players picked just outside the lottery straight from high school that were perhaps both possible 20 pt scorers, including the best young post player in the game at the time (GGreen at 17 and Al Jefferson at 15, I think?), plus two first rounders.  So yes, in KG's case, he was traded for middle-round picks...FOUR of them, two already drafted, one of whom was asserting himself as a top big man.

So it's not like we got all-stars for marginal picks and filler.  We paid quite a bit for KG, and a #5 lotto pick in a solid draft for Ray coming of surgery wasn't exactly a complete steal.  We needed strong assets to pull these guys in, and we don't have that kind of asset now.

You just made a compelling argument to blow it up and trade the big three for picks, in my opinion. It would take us years of losing to acquire something similar to a #5 pick (unless you think Rondo would do it) and a bunch of middle-round picks unless we act now and trade our players for picks.

Got to respectfully disagree, though yes, it does seem that having multiple picks and expirings (to be used for filler) are needed to get a star.  So trading our big names for picks seems to make sense,

however, we have all of our own picks plus the Clips, and if we keep stinking it up this year (a possiblity, especially now that we need a coach that can manage rotations/lineups and don't have a stacked roster where you can just trot out 5 guys and they're work it out...whew) ours might be a mid-1st, so...

KG plus the two 2012 picks and a conditional 2014 1st for an extended Howard at the deadline!

Rondo
Ray
JGreen
Bass
Howard

Paul Pierce as 6th man in 2013!

This season, we fill the middle, get fresher legs out there, and perhaps make a run at # 18!

Rondo/Dooling
Ray/Moore (I love his methodical, controlled game, but perhaps doesn't make the playoff 9-man rotation)
Paul/Pietrus
Bass/Wilcox
Howard/JO

Well, then we have to agree to disagree, because I think a Dwight Howard trade and extension is a pipedream.

[Who]

There is a lot of talent in this draft but a lot of is slightly flawed.   That is the case in any year but there are some guys with tremendous upside like the Davis kid at KY.  

yeah, i was thinking about this the other day.  at least in recent years it seems like the "weak" drafts have way more nba-ready talent than expected, and the "strong" drafts don't look that great, at least a year or two in.  the '09 draft was supposed to be awful and yet it's yielded quite a few potential all-stars, including 3 likely rookies of the year (evans, griffin, rubio).  

the 2010 draft, on the other hand, was supposed to be really strong, and yet so far nobody has broken out as a true star, and it doesn't seem to have been particularly deep.  

likewise, the 2011 draft was supposed to be the weakest in ages but so far it seems like there were more than a handful of very solid roleplayers and potential starters, with at least one or two potential stars (though probably not any superstars).

My understanding of the 2012 draft pool is that it is very strong in the mid + late lottery but tails off quickly and that it lacks talent after the first 15-20 guys.

[Inside-Out]

Just to be clear, we traded a #5 lottery pick for a Ray Allen that was coming off double-ankle surgery.

And KG was traded for two players picked just outside the lottery straight from high school that were perhaps both possible 20 pt scorers, including the best young post player in the game at the time (GGreen at 17 and Al Jefferson at 15, I think?), plus two first rounders.  So yes, in KG's case, he was traded for middle-round picks...FOUR of them, two already drafted, one of whom was asserting himself as a top big man.

So it's not like we got all-stars for marginal picks and filler.  We paid quite a bit for KG, and a #5 lotto pick in a solid draft for Ray coming of surgery wasn't exactly a complete steal.  We needed strong assets to pull these guys in, and we don't have that kind of asset now.

You just made a compelling argument to blow it up and trade the big three for picks, in my opinion. It would take us years of losing to acquire something similar to a #5 pick (unless you think Rondo would do it) and a bunch of middle-round picks unless we act now and trade our players for picks.

Got to respectfully disagree, though yes, it does seem that having multiple picks and expirings (to be used for filler) are needed to get a star.  So trading our big names for picks seems to make sense,

however, we have all of our own picks plus the Clips, and if we keep stinking it up this year (a possiblity, especially now that we need a coach that can manage rotations/lineups and don't have a stacked roster where you can just trot out 5 guys and they're work it out...whew) ours might be a mid-1st, so...

KG plus the two 2012 picks and a conditional 2014 1st for an extended Howard at the deadline!

Rondo
Ray
JGreen
Bass
Howard

Paul Pierce as 6th man in 2013!

This season, we fill the middle, get fresher legs out there, and perhaps make a run at # 18!

Rondo/Dooling
Ray/Moore (I love his methodical, controlled game, but perhaps doesn't make the playoff 9-man rotation)
Paul/Pietrus
Bass/Wilcox
Howard/JO

Well, then we have to agree to disagree, because I think a Dwight Howard trade and extension is a pipedream.

Me too.  

But I also think signing a franchise player in FA is a bigger pipe dream.

And the point of my initial post here is that we don't have the kind of assets that we used to get KG and Ray (in terms of a lotto pick for Ray and combo of insanely talented prospects and picks for KG).  

We're much more likely to try and go forward with Rondo as one of the all-stars, perhaps another through FA, perhaps Pierce as a 3rd option, and a midlevel-type player like JGreen as the complementary piece.

And that would be a pretty good team, but tough to see a contender there unless the FA pickup is a dominant player in the vein of Howard.  Getting past the 2nd round ain't easy...

[Casperian]

Me too.  

But I also think signing a franchise player in FA is a bigger pipe dream.

And the point of my initial post here is that we don't have the kind of assets that we used to get KG and Ray (in terms of a lotto pick for Ray and combo of insanely talented prospects and picks for KG).  

We're much more likely to try and go forward with Rondo as one of the all-stars, perhaps another through FA, perhaps Pierce as a 3rd option, and a midlevel-type player like JGreen as the complementary piece.

And that would be a pretty good team, but tough to see a contender there unless the FA pickup is a dominant player in the vein of Howard.  Getting past the 2nd round ain't easy...

And therein lies the crux of this debate, in my opinion. Are we content with a good team who has pretty much no chance to win it all or do we swing for the fences? Because I don´t believe we can get anything better through free agency, either.

I can understand anyone who would prefer a relatively good team to years of losing, but then again, seeing the Lakers pass us on the number of championships would be a bitter pill to swallow.

[Marcus13]

We're going to break a record on CB for the amount of "Blow it Up" threads in one season