Author Topic: Rondo is driving me nuts...  (Read 16442 times)

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Re: Rondo is driving me nuts...
« Reply #60 on: January 09, 2012, 05:30:14 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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I think, to a certain extent, you're evaluating Rondo based on how well he fits into the traditional role of a label that you're giving him. Most "franchise players" are the focus of their team's offense and the leading scorer of their team. That's not really his role in this offense, and the big three don't fit into the role of most role players.
Not really. My mold of a franchise player is "someone who will make stuff happen for you when the game is on the line". This may mean scoring, setting up other people, or making key defensive stops. Unfortunately, while Rondo has carried the team in stretches over the course of his career, I can't describe him as a franchise player under this definition until he takes it to the next level.

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Of course, it's a valid point that "it's not just Rondo's fault". In which case we have to stop and recognize that he's not that guy -- and trust me, this will be way more important in the coming seasons when his supporting cast will not consist of three future hall of famers.

  "Future hall of famers" is a great have your cake and eat it to phrase that you always see here. In one sentence, they're a better supporting cast than anything you expect him to be surrounded with in the future. In another sentence, they're aging troops and anything you get from them is gravy. LeBron, with his 30/8/8 this year, is a future HOFer. So is Kidd, clocking in at 5/4/5.
Not really. I'll try to explain.

I'm afraid that as aging as they are, our big three, this season, are a better supporting cast than Rondo may be able to get for seasons and seasons to come. This still doesn't mean that they can carry the team on their backs. So yes, if their heroics win you a game here and there that would be great. But we'll be looking at Rondo first every time.

The problem is that people are basing their assessment of how good Rondo is on the past 3 seasons when the Big 3 was distinctly less aged. So yeah, he was great in wreaking havoc when other teams had to worry about Pierce, Garnett, and Allen. However, we're clearly seeing this doesn't work night in and night out anymore. And Rondo still hasn't figured out how to win games for us under these circumstances.

Rondo doesn't shoot the ball a lot when the game is on the line, but he does set people up with great passes, make big defensive plays, and has also been known to get big offensive rebounds.  

This team is still an ensemble piece, which means we'll be relying on all four of our star players to make big plays for us this year.  Rondo will certainly be required to do his fair share, but, thankfully, he won't be asked to do it alone.  

Players who are asked to go out and win games and ultimately playoff series and championships all by themselves, don't generally have a lot of success with that.  

I think the best thing Rondo does in 4th quarters is hustle for loose balls and go after rebounds. I think the idea of setting of people with great passes is a myth, mainly because it usually doesn't come off work he does, he simply passes the ball. He didn't setup the situation, he didn't penetrate or made the defense focus on him to get guys open.

What they usually do is run set plays in which we got Ray running around the floor, if he gets open then Rondo gives him the ball. If not that, we do a lot of pick and pops with KG, or find defensive switches and give the ball to KG. Or we got Pierce creating something. Rarely do we see Rondo really putting the team on his back and really pushing the issue to the point that the team is so concern with him, it becomes unbalanced. What we usually see is a 4th quarter in which Rondo slows the pace down, and starts off plays with 10 second remaining in the shot clock, usually with nothing to show for it.

Rondo has a clutch gene though, particularly when the shot clock is running down and he has to shoot a 3-pointer, he often seems to hit those. And I love how he goes after loose balls, and how he rebounds the ball in 4th quarters. But I think it's a bit dishonest to give credit to how great he's passing in the 4th quarter when the situation wasn't of his making. I'd like to see more of him dribbling past his defender, go towards the hoop.

Now, he does find from time to time a great passing opportunity and take advantage of it, often for an alley to KG, but those are rare events.

Re: Rondo is driving me nuts...
« Reply #61 on: January 09, 2012, 05:30:59 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Rondo doesn't shoot the ball a lot when the game is on the line, but he does set people up with great passes, make big defensive plays, and has also been known to get big offensive rebounds.
He doesn't. Historically, he's always deferred to the Big 3 in crunch time to the extent to which we've had Pierce handle the ball late in games. We tried to go away from this this season and it hasn't worked yet.

 

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This team is still an ensemble piece, which means we'll be relying on all four of our star players to make big plays for us this year.  Rondo will certainly be required to do his fair share, but, thankfully, he won't be asked to do it alone.
If that's indeed the truth, we'll be a .500 team with a pretty miserable playoff faith, since Pierce and Garnett can no longer do it night in and night out, and Allen has no go-to game with the ball in his hands. 

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Players who are asked to go out and win games and ultimately playoff series and championships all by themselves, don't generally have a lot of success with that. 
I didn't say by themselves. I just said a franchise player is supposed to make the team tick when the game is on the line. This doesn't mean putting the ball in their hands and getting out of the way -- but it does involve some sort of relationship between them and the ball, offensively or defensively :) And that whole simply hasn't worked for Rondo so far.
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Re: Rondo is driving me nuts...
« Reply #62 on: January 09, 2012, 05:34:15 PM »

Online Celtics4ever

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I'm afraid that as aging as they are, our big three, this season, are a better supporting cast than Rondo may be able to get for seasons and seasons to come.

The beginning of the year I too thought this now I am not so sure.  It's early though I hope I am wrong.

Re: Rondo is driving me nuts...
« Reply #63 on: January 09, 2012, 05:47:39 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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Rondo doesn't shoot the ball a lot when the game is on the line, but he does set people up with great passes, make big defensive plays, and has also been known to get big offensive rebounds.
He doesn't. Historically, he's always deferred to the Big 3 in crunch time to the extent to which we've had Pierce handle the ball late in games. We tried to go away from this this season and it hasn't worked yet.

 

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This team is still an ensemble piece, which means we'll be relying on all four of our star players to make big plays for us this year.  Rondo will certainly be required to do his fair share, but, thankfully, he won't be asked to do it alone.
If that's indeed the truth, we'll be a .500 team with a pretty miserable playoff faith, since Pierce and Garnett can no longer do it night in and night out, and Allen has no go-to game with the ball in his hands. 

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Players who are asked to go out and win games and ultimately playoff series and championships all by themselves, don't generally have a lot of success with that. 
I didn't say by themselves. I just said a franchise player is supposed to make the team tick when the game is on the line. This doesn't mean putting the ball in their hands and getting out of the way -- but it does involve some sort of relationship between them and the ball, offensively or defensively :) And that whole simply hasn't worked for Rondo so far.

Well, Rondo averaged the second most assists in the league during crunch time last year according to the stats at 82games.com.  He must have had the ball in his hands some to accomplish that.  

We all know that if Ray Allen has the ball in his hands late in a game, that the ball should ideally be leaving his hands, hoisted towards the basket, immediately.  Of course, speaking of Ray, this is a perfect example of what I am talking about.  He has a valuable role on this team, even though, that role isn't to be a "go to guy with the ball in his hands."

Maybe Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett can't "do it night in and night out" anymore (I'm not even sure exactly what you mean by that--if it's win every game by themselves, then no, obviously no one can do that), but that's, again, sort of the point behind the ensemble model.  Nobody has to be solely responsible for wins and losses.  It's a team thing.  

 
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PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: Rondo is driving me nuts...
« Reply #64 on: January 09, 2012, 07:27:17 PM »

Offline Mike-Dub

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There are three point guards I'd trade Rondo in this league for... Rose, Paul, and Williams.  And maybe Kyrie Irving down the line, but if Rondo improves his shot (free-throw shooting included) and a little bit on his decision making he can become better than all three of them and I wouldn't be surprised if that happens considering the improvements he's made on his jumper this year.
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Re: Rondo is driving me nuts...
« Reply #65 on: January 09, 2012, 07:29:01 PM »

Offline TA9

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I like Rondo just the way he is. The mold of a classic Point Guard, we wont have another in a LONG time so sit back and enjoy folks.
Jack of all trades, master of none.

Re: Rondo is driving me nuts...
« Reply #66 on: January 10, 2012, 02:20:54 PM »

Offline ianboyextreme

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I just watched Nash cross a guy up and bury a step back mid-range jumper.

I want that.
here you go, sir. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjKTAqC7v-8

Re: Rondo is driving me nuts...
« Reply #67 on: January 10, 2012, 03:01:35 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Rondo doesn't shoot the ball a lot when the game is on the line, but he does set people up with great passes, make big defensive plays, and has also been known to get big offensive rebounds.
He doesn't. Historically, he's always deferred to the Big 3 in crunch time to the extent to which we've had Pierce handle the ball late in games. We tried to go away from this this season and it hasn't worked yet.

  Historically it's made sense for Rondo to defer to the big three in crunch time. This year's a pretty small sample size. Rondo was getting the players good shots in the Pacers game, they just missed a few of them.

Re: Rondo is driving me nuts...
« Reply #68 on: January 10, 2012, 03:58:15 PM »

Offline Swoopz

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I just watched Nash cross a guy up and bury a step back mid-range jumper.

I want that.
here you go, sir. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjKTAqC7v-8

TP

Re: Rondo is driving me nuts...
« Reply #69 on: January 10, 2012, 05:27:41 PM »

Offline rocknrollforyoursoul

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Well, he's usually driving SOMEONE nuts around here, so I guess this is par for the course. He is maddening at times, but so is the whole team. I get the "team" concept, but sometimes it seems as though no one wants to step forward and grab the bull by the horns, almost like the "team" thing sometimes becomes an excuse to do nothing -- "Hey, I'm not gonna take charge and shoot 20 shots this game, because that would be selfish" ... and then the next guy says the same thing, and so on and so forth. These guys need to be more aggressive and just go for it.

The success that this team has had over the past four years has been based on playing a team style of play that doesn't require anybody to play "hero" ball and take 20 shots a game for the team to win.

I love that team style of play with multiple players who have the ability to make game winning plays.  Apparently, many are tired of team ball and want to go more to a superstar system of lots of one on one basketball.

Let me remind folks that back in the early 2000s, many fans were frustrated watching Paul Pierce often try to win games by himself offensively.  The team wasn't very good and it wasn't a compelling or attractive style of basketball, in my opinion.

Anyway, I'll take a visionary passer whose goal is to get the whole team involved in the offense as my team's point guard for the present and the future.

I don't get the recent fascination with acquiring ball hogs and gunners or turning our own players into ball hogs and gunners.  It's not for me.

Please don't misunderstand me. I don't want gunners and ballhogs, and I like Rondo and his pass-first mentality. I also like the team concept. My point is that sometimes you can have too much of a good thing -- in this case, too much willingness by the team's "lesser" players to want Pierce and Allen to take all the shots. What I want to see from some of the bench guys (and even from Garnett) is what we've seen Bass do a lot of so far: shoot the dang ball when you're open. I just want these guys to be aggressive. I'm sure we've all seen those possessions where one guys has a good look but he passes it to someone he thinks has a better shot, and then THAT guy has a good look but he passes it to ANOTHER guy, etc. I just think that some Celtics are only thinking "pass," no matter what, and end up refusing good looks, and Boston is never going to develop an effective second-unit offense if most of the reserves are passive (pardon the pun).
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Re: Rondo is driving me nuts...
« Reply #70 on: January 10, 2012, 06:35:32 PM »

Offline Tone

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im starting to see what everyone is say about rondo cant score and bad free throw shooting also the fact that he defers way too much just not aggressive enough Danny might have to consider trading Rondo I dont know if he can lead the celtics after the big three era is over

Re: Rondo is driving me nuts...
« Reply #71 on: January 10, 2012, 06:45:08 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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Well, he's usually driving SOMEONE nuts around here, so I guess this is par for the course. He is maddening at times, but so is the whole team. I get the "team" concept, but sometimes it seems as though no one wants to step forward and grab the bull by the horns, almost like the "team" thing sometimes becomes an excuse to do nothing -- "Hey, I'm not gonna take charge and shoot 20 shots this game, because that would be selfish" ... and then the next guy says the same thing, and so on and so forth. These guys need to be more aggressive and just go for it.

The success that this team has had over the past four years has been based on playing a team style of play that doesn't require anybody to play "hero" ball and take 20 shots a game for the team to win.

I love that team style of play with multiple players who have the ability to make game winning plays.  Apparently, many are tired of team ball and want to go more to a superstar system of lots of one on one basketball.

Let me remind folks that back in the early 2000s, many fans were frustrated watching Paul Pierce often try to win games by himself offensively.  The team wasn't very good and it wasn't a compelling or attractive style of basketball, in my opinion.

Anyway, I'll take a visionary passer whose goal is to get the whole team involved in the offense as my team's point guard for the present and the future.

I don't get the recent fascination with acquiring ball hogs and gunners or turning our own players into ball hogs and gunners.  It's not for me.

Please don't misunderstand me. I don't want gunners and ballhogs, and I like Rondo and his pass-first mentality. I also like the team concept. My point is that sometimes you can have too much of a good thing -- in this case, too much willingness by the team's "lesser" players to want Pierce and Allen to take all the shots. What I want to see from some of the bench guys (and even from Garnett) is what we've seen Bass do a lot of so far: shoot the dang ball when you're open. I just want these guys to be aggressive. I'm sure we've all seen those possessions where one guys has a good look but he passes it to someone he thinks has a better shot, and then THAT guy has a good look but he passes it to ANOTHER guy, etc. I just think that some Celtics are only thinking "pass," no matter what, and end up refusing good looks, and Boston is never going to develop an effective second-unit offense if most of the reserves are passive (pardon the pun).

I liked your pun.  The second unit doesn't have slashers and shot creators, but it doesn't seem to me that Keyon Dooling and even Marquis are shy about taking an open shot.  Of course, you've already mentioned that Brandon rarely meets a shot he doesn't like.

I don't think passing the ball around too much is a problem for this team. 
DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: Rondo is driving me nuts...
« Reply #72 on: January 10, 2012, 07:02:44 PM »

Online Celtics4ever

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Bass was shooting over  .525% from the FG.  That is normally a greenlight situation.