NBA's top 50 players

[nickagneta]

Players I think are way too high if this is based on their current games:
7) Kevin Garnett
16) Shaquille O'Neal
22) Manu Ginobelli
23) Jason Kidd
24) Tracy McGrady
29) Ron Artest
32) Baron Davis
45) Elton Brand
46) Richard Jefferson
49) Michael Redd
50) Andrew Bynum

Players I think are way too low if this is based on their current game:

17) Pau Gasol
21) Kevin Durant
25) Joe Johnson
31) Danny Granger
47) OJ Mayo

Players who I can't understand why they aren't on the list:

Gerald Wallace
Stephen Jackson
Kevin Martin
Monta Ellis
Antawn Jamison

Gerald Wallace is on the list, look at everything he does on a given night.

I looked again, I don't see his name. Where on the list is Wallace?

[crownsy]

My top ten players in the NBA today.

1 Kobe
2 Dwade
3 LeBron
4 KG
5 Chris Paul
6 Kevin Durant
7 Dwight Howard (even though he sucks skillwise)
8 Melo
9 Paul Pierce
10 Tim Duncan

wow. I think you are severely overrating KG based on how he's playing right now.

And how you can have duncan that low with the absolute tear he's on right now....

[MBz]

Right but Bynums only done it for 15 games.  If that's the case where's Brandon Jennings?  Where's Russell Westbrook?  This list is awful.  Also Duncans a top 5 player for me.  He's just too skilled not to be and I would 100% have him above KG.

[BballTim]

My top ten players in the NBA today.

1 Kobe
2 Dwade
3 LeBron
4 KG
5 Chris Paul
6 Kevin Durant
7 Dwight Howard (even though he sucks skillwise)
8 Melo
9 Paul Pierce
10 Tim Duncan

wow. I think you are severely overrating KG based on how he's playing right now.

And how you can have duncan that low with the absolute tear he's on right now....

  I don't think 4-7 is too high for KG once he's healthy. Over the course of the year he could easily be at that level.

[moiso]

Joe Johnson at 25 is just plain dumb.

Shaq at 16 is stupid, it's not five years ago.

Kevin Durant should be in the top ten, I wonder when people are finally going to notice how serious of a player he is.

Ginobili needs to drop down a lot, he might be the most overrated player in the NBA, and injuries have to be taken into consideration, they clearly did for Tracy McGrady.

There are a few players that do not belong on this list, Battier, Bynum, Villanueva etc.

comical that mcgrady is higher than joe johnson.

[Atzar]

Here's a jumble of thoughts about this list, typed out as I think them.  I'm trying to stick to original thoughts.  I'm also trying to stick to big differences, as opposed to cases like Melo vs. Dirk for #8 - those arguments are pretty pointless.

Derrick Rose shouldn't be #26.  If I did this out myself, I think I'd put him in the high 30's. 

I don't like Amare Stoudemire at 19, either - this is about what they are, not what they should be.

I like that Nene got noticed, I feel like he's a very underrated player. 

Shaq is way, way too high.  He shouldn't be in the top 30.  This has already been said, but it's so true that it should be part of every post in this thread.

I think health should be counted a lot more than it seems to be on this list.  Therefore, T-Mac, KG, Manu and Yao should all be lower in my opinion.  Michael Redd should be left off.

Devin Harris is too high, based on this year.

Happy that Mo Williams was left off.

Not sure Battier should be there.  I love him as a roleplayer, but I don't top-50-in-the-NBA love him. 

Where is Caron Butler?  There are some other absences that I question, but they've already been mentioned.  Would have loved to see an 'Honorable Mention' section.

How much of the list is based on this year?  Or is it just as of last year?  The absence of any rookies seems to suggest that it's based on last year - Jennings at least should be top 50 as of this year, even with his recent downturn.  Tyreke Evans should get a look as well.  I can understand their absences if it's based on last year, but in that case guys who had a great 2008-2009 - like Butler - got shafted.

[Greenbean]

Here's a jumble of thoughts about this list, typed out as I think them.  I'm trying to stick to original thoughts.  I'm also trying to stick to big differences, as opposed to cases like Melo vs. Dirk for #8 - those arguments are pretty pointless.

Derrick Rose shouldn't be #26.  If I did this out myself, I think I'd put him in the high 30's. 

I don't like Amare Stoudemire at 19, either - this is about what they are, not what they should be.

I like that Nene got noticed, I feel like he's a very underrated player. 

Shaq is way, way too high.  He shouldn't be in the top 30.  This has already been said, but it's so true that it should be part of every post in this thread.

I think health should be counted a lot more than it seems to be on this list.  Therefore, T-Mac, KG, Manu and Yao should all be lower in my opinion.  Michael Redd should be left off.

Devin Harris is too high, based on this year.

Happy that Mo Williams was left off.

Not sure Battier should be there.  I love him as a roleplayer, but I don't top-50-in-the-NBA love him. 

Where is Caron Butler?  There are some other absences that I question, but they've already been mentioned.  Would have loved to see an 'Honorable Mention' section.

How much of the list is based on this year?  Or is it just as of last year?  The absence of any rookies seems to suggest that it's based on last year - Jennings at least should be top 50 as of this year, even with his recent downturn.  Tyreke Evans should get a look as well.  I can understand their absences if it's based on last year, but in that case guys who had a great 2008-2009 - like Butler - got shafted.

Good rule Atzar. Shaq shouldnt be in the top 30. Every post in this thread from now on. Repeat this.


To comment on the rest of the list. Garbage. Entirely unworthy of the intelligent members of CleticsBlog's time.

[Atzar]

Glad you approve... TP.

Shaq shouldn't be in the top 30.

And I agree, I wasn't all that fond of the list in general.  Obviously nobody is going to agree on everything... that's why I tried to avoid quibbling about precise placements.  In my opinion, as long as a player is close, it's perfectly fine with me - I don't care whether Melo is 8, 9 or 10, as long as he's somewhere in that general vicinity.  The specific rank is frequently a matter of personal taste and nitpicking about stats. 

It's when they miss by a wide margin that annoys me - I'll use Danny Granger as an example.  He's ranked at #31.  He scores 25 a game on fairly efficient shooting for his position, rebounds well for his position, and doesn't play much defense.  Sounds a lot like, say, Bosh and Durant - who are both ranked at least 10 spots higher than him.  Personally, I'd have him a few notches below Durant and one or two above Bosh, but somewhere in that area would be fine.  But ten below them?  Nuh-uh. 

It's not like there were just a couple of these arguments, either.  There were several that seemed far off of what they should have been. 

[snively]

Bizarre how people continue to rank Kobe #1.  The league's and especially the media's MJ hangover has significantly over-inflated Kobe's rep.  LeBron and Chris Paul should be all over the top-2 spots: the two most complete and unstoppable players at their positions, with LeBron getting the edge for his ability to play the 1-4 spots so well.  I'd put Dwight Howard 3rd.  Kobe, D-Wade, KG (giving him a little leeway for his injury) and Duncan belong on the next tier as elite 2-way players. Guys like Pierce, Pau Gasol, Brandon Roy, Deron Williams and Chauncey Billups occupy the fringes of that 2nd tier, and beyond them is the vast sea of super-role players like Rondo and Josh Smith (this year at least), really-good-but-not-great guys like Ray Allen and Joe Johnson, one-way players like Steve Nash, Dirk Nowitzki and Chris Bosh, flawed stars like Carmelo and Arenas and massive potential guys like Derrick Rose, Kevin Durant and Greg Oden.

[Atzar]

Um... have you watched any of the players you're trying to categorize here?  When Gasol was out, Kobe was torching teams for 40 on a nightly basis - the only night he was slowed was against Arron Afflalo in Denver.  I hate to say it, but he is still as qualified as anybody for best player in the country, and no way should he be 4th.

Durant is one of the best scorers in the league, and his rebounding and defense have improved.  His shot selection has also gotten much, much better.  No way he's as low as you have him, and no way Rose and Oden are in the same sentence as him at this point.

Dwight is not 3rd.  His game, after 5 seasons in the league, is still entirely based on athleticism.  His numbers are actually down across the board from last year - less scoring, less rebounding, more turnovers, less blocks, worse FT% and more fouls.  He's also a much smaller part of the offense than he was (although it's hard to say how much of that is his fault and how much is the fault of his teammates/coach). 

Chauncey is no longer a second tier player. 

Rondo is not as high as you listed him - not until he consistently plays like good Rondo. 

Go watch Melo play, watch what he does for that team, and then tell me he's that far down.  He's not the Melo of a few years ago - he's learning (finally) how to play the game, and he deserves the MVP chatter that's going on around him. 

Ditto Dirk - he's a top 10-15 player.

Steve Nash is the reason Phoenix has been good this year. 

[j_fran]

Um... have you watched any of the players you're trying to categorize here?  When Gasol was out, Kobe was torching teams for 40 on a nightly basis - the only night he was slowed was against Arron Afflalo in Denver.  I hate to say it, but he is still as qualified as anybody for best player in the country, and no way should he be 4th.

Durant is one of the best scorers in the league, and his rebounding and defense have improved.  His shot selection has also gotten much, much better.  No way he's as low as you have him, and no way Rose and Oden are in the same sentence as him at this point.

Dwight is not 3rd.  His game, after 5 seasons in the league, is still entirely based on athleticism.  His numbers are actually down across the board from last year - less scoring, less rebounding, more turnovers, less blocks, worse FT% and more fouls.  He's also a much smaller part of the offense than he was (although it's hard to say how much of that is his fault and how much is the fault of his teammates/coach). 

Chauncey is no longer a second tier player. 

Rondo is not as high as you listed him - not until he consistently plays like good Rondo. 

Go watch Melo play, watch what he does for that team, and then tell me he's that far down.  He's not the Melo of a few years ago - he's learning (finally) how to play the game, and he deserves the MVP chatter that's going on around him. 

Ditto Dirk - he's a top 10-15 player.

Steve Nash is the reason Phoenix has been good this year. 

agree with everything above.

the way I see it is Kobe and Lebron are the two best players in the league, and you can claim one is better than the other based on personal preference (I'm partial to Kobe) but any intelligent basketball fan can put forth a compelling and reasonable argument why one is better than the other.  I think it's most accurate to say they're equal firsts on any list.  Third is Wade.  And then after that, there's about 10 to 15 players who all seem they should be placed in a big group, like Duncan, Melo, Paul, Garnett, Nowitski, Howard, Gasol etc. 

[snively]

Um... have you watched any of the players you're trying to categorize here?  When Gasol was out, Kobe was torching teams for 40 on a nightly basis - the only night he was slowed was against Arron Afflalo in Denver.  I hate to say it, but he is still as qualified as anybody for best player in the country, and no way should he be 4th.

Durant is one of the best scorers in the league, and his rebounding and defense have improved.  His shot selection has also gotten much, much better.  No way he's as low as you have him, and no way Rose and Oden are in the same sentence as him at this point.

Dwight is not 3rd.  His game, after 5 seasons in the league, is still entirely based on athleticism.  His numbers are actually down across the board from last year - less scoring, less rebounding, more turnovers, less blocks, worse FT% and more fouls.  He's also a much smaller part of the offense than he was (although it's hard to say how much of that is his fault and how much is the fault of his teammates/coach). 

Chauncey is no longer a second tier player. 

Rondo is not as high as you listed him - not until he consistently plays like good Rondo. 

Go watch Melo play, watch what he does for that team, and then tell me he's that far down.  He's not the Melo of a few years ago - he's learning (finally) how to play the game, and he deserves the MVP chatter that's going on around him. 

Ditto Dirk - he's a top 10-15 player.

Steve Nash is the reason Phoenix has been good this year. 

In answer to your question, I haven't seen Kobe this year, but I've seen Paul, Wade, Howard and most of the rest, and I've watched 50+ Lakers games in the past 2 or 3 seasons, so I feel pretty confident in my assessment.

Kobe can torch a lot of people for 40 points and it won't change my assessment.  He's always been a top 3 scorer, volume wise, in the league and his efficiency is darn good too.  I just don't think he has the same impact on the game LeBron, Dwight Howard and Chris Paul do.  CP3 for instance can score in 20+ volumes with superior efficiency than Kobe while getting his teammates far more easy looks, hitting the boards at a comparable rate and generating more possessions for his teammates through steals.  Kobe's penchant for scoring explosions, nailing difficult shots in the clutch and mimicking MJ's mannerisms are great for inflating that rep, but they don't make him a better player.

I won't get into Bron, because that territory is old, but as for Howard, his enormous defensive impact on opposing teams is just as valuable as Kobe's scoring outbursts, and he's a fantastic offensive garbage man to boot.  Sure he's not a great clutch option, but neither is Kobe a threat to haul down 20 boards and stuff down put-backs for the 1st 3 quarters.  Howard's net impact is more significant than Kobe's, Kobe's is just more visually compelling.

I will say that Kobe is the best 2-guard in the game.  

[j_fran]

Um... have you watched any of the players you're trying to categorize here?  When Gasol was out, Kobe was torching teams for 40 on a nightly basis - the only night he was slowed was against Arron Afflalo in Denver.  I hate to say it, but he is still as qualified as anybody for best player in the country, and no way should he be 4th.

Durant is one of the best scorers in the league, and his rebounding and defense have improved.  His shot selection has also gotten much, much better.  No way he's as low as you have him, and no way Rose and Oden are in the same sentence as him at this point.

Dwight is not 3rd.  His game, after 5 seasons in the league, is still entirely based on athleticism.  His numbers are actually down across the board from last year - less scoring, less rebounding, more turnovers, less blocks, worse FT% and more fouls.  He's also a much smaller part of the offense than he was (although it's hard to say how much of that is his fault and how much is the fault of his teammates/coach). 

Chauncey is no longer a second tier player. 

Rondo is not as high as you listed him - not until he consistently plays like good Rondo. 

Go watch Melo play, watch what he does for that team, and then tell me he's that far down.  He's not the Melo of a few years ago - he's learning (finally) how to play the game, and he deserves the MVP chatter that's going on around him. 

Ditto Dirk - he's a top 10-15 player.

Steve Nash is the reason Phoenix has been good this year. 

In answer to your question, I haven't seen Kobe this year, but I've seen Paul, Wade, Howard and most of the rest, and I've watched 50+ Lakers games in the past 2 or 3 seasons, so I feel pretty confident in my assessment.

Kobe can torch a lot of people for 40 points and it won't change my assessment.  He's always been a top 3 scorer, volume wise, in the league and his efficiency is darn good too.  I just don't think he has the same impact on the game LeBron, Dwight Howard and Chris Paul do.  CP3 for instance can score in 20+ volumes with superior efficiency than Kobe while getting his teammates far more easy looks, hitting the boards at a comparable rate and generating more possessions for his teammates through steals.  Kobe's penchant for scoring explosions, nailing difficult shots in the clutch and mimicking MJ's mannerisms are great for inflating that rep, but they don't make him a better player.

I won't get into Bron, because that territory is old, but as for Howard, his enormous defensive impact on opposing teams is just as valuable as Kobe's scoring outbursts, and he's a fantastic offensive garbage man to boot.  Sure he's not a great clutch option, but neither is Kobe a threat to haul down 20 boards and stuff down put-backs for the 1st 3 quarters.  Howard's net impact is more significant than Kobe's, Kobe's is just more visually compelling.

I will say that Kobe is the best 2-guard in the game.  

sorry, i understand your view, but you're wrong.  you say you've watched numerous laker games over the last couple years but you seem to be missing the simple fact that the offensive the lakers run, the triangle, is based on not having a single player dominate the ball during an offensive possession.  Kobe's influence in the Laker's offensive is just as great as Lebrons or Pauls or Wades or anyone elses, it just doesn't look that way to the casual observer and to people who look only at assist numbers in determining how much of a "team" player someone is.