Author Topic: Discovery or Doom?  (Read 8145 times)

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Re: Discovery or Doom?
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2008, 09:32:36 AM »

Offline kw10

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I want to know what does this LHC actually do? Or what's the real purpose of this project or what are they trying to find/achieve??

But this sounds interesting.
Anything is possible!!!

Re: Discovery or Doom?
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2008, 09:34:58 AM »

Offline Chris

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I clicked the link and our computer
started acting all weird.
A sign of things to come!?  ;)
"Large Hadron Collider"... Sounds like
something out of a Ray Bradbury novel.

Or Dan Brown...

Re: Discovery or Doom?
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2008, 09:45:23 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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I want to know what does this LHC actually do? Or what's the real purpose of this project or what are they trying to find/achieve??

But this sounds interesting.
This is my extremely basic understanding of the project.

The LHC is an atom collider that will be colliding cosmic rays into various atoms in the hopes of creating tiny black holes who's gravitational pulls will reveal the Higgins boon, a perfectly symmetrical sub atomic particle. Theories abound that this particle, if it exists, is the key to unlocking the knowledge of the possible existance of dimensions beyeond the three or four that we know of.

The thinking goes that the Earth's gravitation should be about the mst powerful force we should encounter do to its size. yet a tiny magnet has the ability to overcome the gravitation force of the earth and pick up a paperclip. Is that due to magnetism being such a greater individual and concentrated force or is the gravity of the earth so widespread over so many other dimensions that not all of its gravitational force is being exuded upon the paperclip? Is the gravity of the Earth leaking out into other dimensions tht we don't know of and because of that the tiny magnet has the force to overcome the gravity of the Earth?

From the limited stuff I read, this is my understanding of it.

Re: Discovery or Doom?
« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2008, 10:19:53 AM »

Offline LA_33

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I have to agree with kgiessler that if the engineers and physicists that have been working on this and have the most expertise in this area have no worries regarding the integrity of the experiments being done, then why does it have to be stopped?

They used a layman's term to describe what was being generated and suddenly all the stories of a child's youth and imagination take over and the world is going to end due to a subatomic gravitational entity who's expected life duration is minuscule. If they want to try to capture the Higgs boson, this symmetrical subatomic particle and believe it could lead to the harnessing and understanding of dimensions and gravity loss, let them.

Who knows what the knowledge could lead to.
The "black hole" uproar is certainly an overreaction, because the physicists working on this project know pretty much exactly how these tiny black holes will behave; they've seen things like them in previous lower-energy experiments, and the theoretical understanding of how black holes work is quite solid.

There is an actual potential threat with these super-high-energy particle colliders, though, and it doesn't exactly relate to the microscopic black holes.  This machine's entire purpose is to mimic, for the briefest of intervals, at the smallest possible scale, the energy  circumstances of the Big Bang.  While the scientists know to some mind-boggling level of certainty that nothing terrible will happen even if they're successful, no one actually has any idea what the results of a successful near-Big-Bang experiment will be.  There is a non-zero chance that the "perfect" LHC experiment will cause an actual Big Bang, or something like it. 

If that happens, no one knows for sure (yet again, not necessarily a problem, but plenty of uncertainty) what will happen, but it's possible that such a "New Big Bang" could swallow up the known universe at a faster-than-light-speed, expansionary rate.  That's probably not even the likely outcome IF a New Big Bang were to happen, which has only an infinitesimal chance in the first place, but it's not impossible.  Not a reason to avoid the research, but still a little scary.   

Quote
And I love the justification in a few of these articles questioning the experiment because why should money be spent in the pursuit of knowledge when it should be spent on trying to make our lives easier. What a load of complete crap that is. With all the money that is wasted by people and governments today, people are questioning the use of funds to increase humankind's knowledge and understanding of the universe.

It doesn't matter that this experiment could lead to the understanding of some new energy source, dimensional travel through space, or any one of a million other uses most science fiction novels describe. No what's important is that when I drive in a tunnel and am illegally talking on a cell phone while driving, I still get crystal clear reception.

Unreal.
I'm all for spending whatever money can be gathered on high-level science, but ANY potential practical outcome of the LHC experimentation is a pretty disingenuous argument.  Almost no one associated with the project actually expects to learn anything that will have realistic a practice use.  That's OK, but it's true that this is almost purely an intellectual exercise.

That's not to say that the money should be focused on consumer-level research like cell phone reception, though.  If international governments are going to be spending the kind of money that Europe did on the LHC, it makes far more sense to focus on space exploration (more substantial unmanned missions to the other planets and probably more importantly the moons of Jupiter and Saturn, deeper examination of the comet belts, etc.) coupled with new space-entry technology and engineering (a new space launch vehicle, or a space elevator, a geostationary satellite with a cable tethered to the Earth's surface, allowing payloads to be moved beyond the Earth's gravitational sphere with something more like a train or elevator car than a much-less-efficient rocket). 

Space exploration would potentially benefit many branches of science, multiple types of physics as well as biology, geology, medicine, etc., rather than particle physics alone, and could also provide more immediate real-world benefits in the form of easy solar power, natural resources from asteroids, etc.

China seems to be focusing their science and technology funding in this direction already, and if they succeed, while Europe and the US spend the majority of their high-level science resources on things like particle colliders, the western world could be left behind in their scientific ivory towers. 
« Last Edit: September 10, 2008, 10:29:56 AM by LA_33 »

Re: Discovery or Doom?
« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2008, 10:40:50 AM »

Offline Andy Jick

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I clicked the link and our computer
started acting all weird.
A sign of things to come!?  ;)
"Large Hadron Collider"... Sounds like
something out of a Ray Bradbury novel.

Or Dan Brown...

i actually enjoyed reading "angels and demons"...it blew away the da vinci code.  although i'm a christian, i was not entirely offended by that book.  it's opinion/fiction.  but this other novel was a really good read, right in line with this thread.
"It was easier to know it than to explain why I know it."

Re: Discovery or Doom?
« Reply #20 on: September 10, 2008, 01:16:23 PM »

Offline biggs

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Well if this is the end I have to say at least I saw the C's win in 08'.  Now I can die a happy man. ;)

This thing is pretty exciting though.  I'm looking forward to the potential discoveries they could make. 
Truuuuuuuuuth!

Re: Discovery or Doom?
« Reply #21 on: September 10, 2008, 01:24:01 PM »

Offline Redz

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If there is indeed a Black Hole coming I'm getting me one of these



Maybe a Maximilian too (you really can't be too safe)
Yup

Re: Discovery or Doom?
« Reply #22 on: September 10, 2008, 01:26:23 PM »

Offline Sweet17

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Quote
That's not to say that the money should be focused on consumer-level research like cell phone reception, though.  If international governments are going to be spending the kind of money that Europe did on the LHC, it makes far more sense to focus on space exploration (more substantial unmanned missions to the other planets and probably more importantly the moons of Jupiter and Saturn, deeper examination of the comet belts, etc.) coupled with new space-entry technology and engineering (a new space launch vehicle, or a space elevator, a geostationary satellite with a cable tethered to the Earth's surface, allowing payloads to be moved beyond the Earth's gravitational sphere with something more like a train or elevator car than a much-less-efficient rocket).  

I disagree. The kind of technology to make space travel truly practical would take a real leap from what we are doing now. And it's experiments like the super collider that would provide that kind of insight. That is research into basic science. Applied science has it's place but we do fund that too.. You can't really sit back and say one kind of funding is so much more useful then another. The discovery of mini-black holes or something like that could change everything.

I think even NASA people would chafe at the idea of dumping Super Collider research for their programs.. Also this whole thing is much ado about nothing. If the scientists don't think we are going to create a mini black hole that will swallow us up...then it's pretty safe. It's like the stupid "grey goo" theory which wants us to stop research into nanotech.

Pete

Re: Discovery or Doom?
« Reply #23 on: September 10, 2008, 01:28:29 PM »

Offline Sweet17

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Quote
So I dropped her off and looked back at the school as another busload of kids embarked on another day of learning, and I started thinking about how amazing it is on a very surface level that we, as a species, have a place where we go for a good solid chunk of early lives just to develop that curiosity.   On a purely evolutionary level it's amazing to me that a species can make that jump in such a relatively short period of time.

Heh. You sound like a writer for Star Trek. Is it really amazing? Maybe most other intelligent species advance far beyond us in the universe and are scoffing right now and those retarded humans. Or even worse see us the way we study bugs or single celled organism..

Re: Discovery or Doom?
« Reply #24 on: September 10, 2008, 01:37:35 PM »

Offline Redz

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Quote
So I dropped her off and looked back at the school as another busload of kids embarked on another day of learning, and I started thinking about how amazing it is on a very surface level that we, as a species, have a place where we go for a good solid chunk of early lives just to develop that curiosity.   On a purely evolutionary level it's amazing to me that a species can make that jump in such a relatively short period of time.

Heh. You sound like a writer for Star Trek. Is it really amazing? Maybe most other intelligent species advance far beyond us in the universe and are scoffing right now and those retarded humans. Or even worse see us the way we study bugs or single celled organism..


It's all relative I suppose, but based solely on what we know about life on our planet I find our fascination with fascinations fascinating.
Yup

Re: Discovery or Doom?
« Reply #25 on: September 10, 2008, 01:44:12 PM »

Offline Chris

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I clicked the link and our computer
started acting all weird.
A sign of things to come!?  ;)
"Large Hadron Collider"... Sounds like
something out of a Ray Bradbury novel.

Or Dan Brown...

i actually enjoyed reading "angels and demons"...it blew away the da vinci code.  although i'm a christian, i was not entirely offended by that book.  it's opinion/fiction.  but this other novel was a really good read, right in line with this thread.

I was starting to wonder if I was the only one on here who had read that. 

And I agree, much better book than the Davinci Code.

Re: Discovery or Doom?
« Reply #26 on: September 10, 2008, 02:09:42 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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I clicked the link and our computer
started acting all weird.
A sign of things to come!?  ;)
"Large Hadron Collider"... Sounds like
something out of a Ray Bradbury novel.

Or Dan Brown...

i actually enjoyed reading "angels and demons"...it blew away the da vinci code.  although i'm a christian, i was not entirely offended by that book.  it's opinion/fiction.  but this other novel was a really good read, right in line with this thread.

I was starting to wonder if I was the only one on here who had read that. 

And I agree, much better book than the Davinci Code.
Let me add a voice to those that thought Angels and Demons was a much better book than The DaVinci Code.

Re: Discovery or Doom?
« Reply #27 on: September 10, 2008, 03:05:50 PM »

Offline Redz

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Google's image du jour:

Yup