Can Pruitt guard shooting guards?

[Jon]

  Doc couldn't decide on a backup pg because he didn't get consistent play out of either of them. He started with Cassell and then switched to House when Cassell faltered, but he then switched back to Cassell. It's no coincidence that House played very few minutes against Detroit when everyone predicted that he'd struggle against then.

Doc (and Danny) never felt comfortable with House as a PG.  Even from training camp, they were trying to come up with options to get House playing off the ball, including the horrendous idea of playing Tony Allen at PG.

Doc loves House...but not as a PG.  This is why I think we will be seeing a decent amount of Pruitt at the point with House at SG, especially early in the season (and against particular matchups).  That will free up Tony to play more SF.

Here is what I expect to see at some point of this season, before they shorten up rotations:

PG- Rondo 35, House 8, Pruitt 5
SG- R.Allen 33, T.Allen 10, House 5
SF- Pierce 33, T.Allen 10, Giddens (or Walker)5

Maybe.  But what is Gabe Pruitt (or anyone for that matter) going to prove in 5 minutes per game?  Plus, does it hurt House's effectiveness if he only plays 13 minutes per game rather than 18? 

What does he need to prove?  Its not about proving anything, it is about playing a role on a team, and being effective.  If he is effective in 5 minutes, he will have a chance to earn more.  If he can't make good use of his minutes, then he will likely be cut or traded, because he is a waste of a valuable roster spot.

And House can be just as effective playing 2 minutes per game as he can be in 18. 

I hate this "you need to give players X minutes for them to be effective".  These are role players on a championship team.  If they can't be effective in short minutes, or only playing in certain matchups, then they can't be on this team.

What does he have to prove?  Well, I think he has to prove whether he's capable of being the backup point guard in playoffs.  You claim that Doc isn't comfortable with House at the point.  If that's true, Pruitt needs to "prove" to him that he can be the new backup.  If he's truly only going to get 5 mpg, I think that might be tough to do. 

As for the minutes argument, I don't totally agree.  I think some role players are pretty good at playing a couple minutes here and a couple minutes there; however, I think most players play better when they get more minutes, especially more minutes in a row.  I think it's human nature that when you have a limited time to prove your worth, you exert more energy.  I think that accounts for at least part of the reason Cassell jacked up so many shots last year.  He was going from playing 30 mpg, to less than 10, and he was trying to make his mark.  I think Pruitt would be in the same boat.  True, he's not used to playing 30 mpg; however, he would be trying to prove to the coaching staff that he could be a difference maker, and thus try to do to much.

Ultimately, I'd continue to give House all the minutes until Pruitt clearly starts outplaying him in the preseason or in practice during the season.  This is a championship team; we don't need to be that worried about developing a second round combo guard.  Rondo's young and is going to be in the fold for a long time.  Best case scenario, Pruitt becomes an effective backup.  But that certainly wouldn't be any revelation.  Those can be found on the free agent market.  Plus, if House really isn't cutting it at the PG spot, Pruitt doesn't have to be the answer.  The C's can certainly look to make a trade or pickup a FA or a buyout. 

Sorry, we are talking about two different things here.  I am not talking about the playoffs yet.  I am just saying that Pruitt will get his chance to play in the rotation this regular season. 

The point is, right now, Pruitt is the 3rd string PG.  Last year, that was Tony Allen, with Pruitt as a development project.  Pruitt needs to prove in the preseason, and whatever minutes he gets that he can handle that role.  If he is going to make excuses (or people make excuses for him) that he isn't getting enough time to prove himself, than he doesn't deserve a roster spot, and they will need to bring in a new 3rd string PG.

This whole "certain guys need more minutes thing" really drives me nuts though.  I still remember people saying Marcus Banks never got a chance, when he played between 15 and 20 minutes per game.  This isn't little league.  You need to take advantage of any minutes you get, and prove you deserve more.

I generally agree.  I could care less if Pruitt gets any minutes.  As as I said in my last post, given the state of things, I don't even care if he develops that much.  If Rondo goes down for a while, no one's taking his place: House, Pruitt, or someone on the FA market.  If House goes down, you just up Rondo's minutes and either let Pruitt do his best or pick someone else up. 

Ultimately, the best players should be getting the minutes.  The only exceptions to this are when fatigue or foul trouble set in (and an occasional matchup issue).  Personally, I'm in complete agreement with you.  Until Pruitt starts proving in practice that he's better than House, his opportunities should be limited. 

[BballTim]

Keep in mind that things aren't all that much different than last year.  Cassell didn't get here until the last 1/3 of the season anyway, and Pruitt still didn't play that much. 

I don't think we're disagreeing that much.  If we once again win 66 games and we once again win half of them by double digits, well then there should be about 33 minutes where Pruitt gets garbage time in the fourth quarter.  I just find it doubtful that a team that has a strong starting point guard and a decent backup is going to find enough time for a third point guard to get meaningful minutes on a regular basis.

And why should they cut him if they don't plan to use him more?  This isn't Little League; everyone doesn't have to play.  Moreover, this isn't some goodwill charity either.  This is a business of trying to win.  The Celtics need players who aren't going to play on a regular basis that can step in if someone gets hurt.  Pruitt was a second round pick; he should be happy to still be in the NBA at this point. 

  It's not little league, but they don't have unlimited roster spots. If Pruitt's not good enough to get any more than garbage minutes then he's not good enough to be the 3rd pg in the playoffs. Keep in mind tht the 3rd pg isn't a ceremonial position. House played a total of 18 minutes against Detroit even though he'd just taken the job from Cassell, so it's not like we can definitely get through with just House. Pruitt playing 33 minutes of garbage time during the season won't be at all ready to step in and play. We'd need another pg, and we'd need Pruitt's roster spot for him.

The only reasons three point guards got minutes for the Celtics were a) Rondo was very young and inconsistent at times and b) Doc couldn't make up his mind who the backup 1 was.  Normally, in the playoffs, coaches don't go more than 1 deep at a position, and often 1 backup backs up multiple positions (like Posey backing up Allen and Pierce).  No other team did that.  Juan Dixon didn't play at all for the Pistons in the Conference Finals.  Only Jordan Farmar saw minutes behind Derek Fisher for the Lakers.  Damon Jones only saw minutes in the Cavs series after Gibson went down.  I could go on.  No team, under ordinary circumstances, is going to play 3 point guards in the playoffs.  And most aren't going to play 3 on a regular basis in the regular season.  There just aren't enough minutes to go around. 

  Doc couldn't decide on a backup pg because he didn't get consistent play out of either of them. He started with Cassell and then switched to House when Cassell faltered, but he then switched back to Cassell. It's no coincidence that House played very few minutes against Detroit when everyone predicted that he'd struggle against then.

Right.  But my point is that it's not happening this year.  Cassell has consistently been a borderline All Star who had historically come up big in the big game.  That can't be said about Pruitt.  Doc didn't utilize him last year when he didn't have a third string PG for the first 65 games of the season.  And while he may have improved this offseason, Rondo is going to get even more minutes this year and House has further cemented himself as a part of the C's rotation. 

  How has he further cemented himself as a part of the rotation? Are his flaws going to disappear? If Doc was concerned about House in the playoffs last year why won't that be the case this year?

I'm no fan of House.  I'd prefer a purer point guard.  However, he played a role in the championship run, which is something that Pruitt can't say.  Thus, I'd say he's the incumbent backup that Pruitt has to beat out.  That's what I meant by cemented himself. 

And as I showed above and as others have agreed on, we certainly don't need a third point guard in the playoffs.  If there's any time we may need a third point guard, as others have pointed out, it's in the regular season.  In the playoffs, you play your best players as many minutes as possible.  It was totally a fluke situation that allowed for Rondo/House/Cassell to all get minutes.  No other playoff team had a three man rotation at the point. 

  Would you be confident going into the playoffs with Davis as your only backup center, with a 3rd center who's only capable of getting into garbage time? Because that's the equivalent of what you're doing. Davis played almost as many minutes as House during the season and he played almost as many minutes as House during the playoffs. PJ brown getting more minutes than him was the same kind of fluke as Cassell getting backup pg minutes.

  You've shown that teams don't need to have 3 pgs play in the playoffs and most teams don't play 3 pgs in the playoffs. But you haven't shown that House is capable of being the sole backup pg for a team in the playoffs. That's the key point.

[Who]

It looks like Lindsey Hunter is going to retire .... there's not a lot of guys out there that single handedly can pressure the ball well enough for it to be a concern.

Plus it's a very simple problem to work around. Just slap KG in at center court, pass it ahead to him and he can pass ahead to a wing. Then setup the offense. No need for Eddie dribbling against pressure when there's an easier way to advance the ball.

It also didn't cost the team anything significant against Detroit when Eddie was on the floor. Doc lost confidence in him (which absolutely makes it a problem) more than Eddie's flaws hurt the team.

To be honest, I think their dislike for House at the PG spot has less to do with dealing with pressure (because that is relatively rare), but more to do with how he actually runs the offense.  House simply does not know how to run an offense.  Although he does not turn the ball over much, he also does not make anything happen.  And I am not just talking about breaking your man off the dribble, or making a flashy, no-look pass. 

I am talking about making passes that have a purpose.  Making moves with the ball to set up a passing lane to get the ball in the post.  Moving the ball to the right man at the right time. 

When House is running the offense, it generally comes to a standstill, because all he does is hand the ball off, or pass it to someone out of position. 

Pruitt on the other hand showed (in very short minutes I know, so its not enough to really go on) the ability to get the team into the offense, and the ability to direct the offense.  He is not Jason Kidd, or even Rondo, but he is a decent enough passer.  But more importantly, he understands how to direct an offense, and how to use his skills to make a play progress.

This is why I think Pruitt will be playing some minutes at the Point this year.  House will play more off the ball, and they will allow Pruitt to prove that the flashes he showed last year were more than just flashes.

I agree with that criticism of Eddie House's game.

I have to say I haven't seen anything like that from Pruitt when it comes to passing and running a team. If he can do that it will help his cause. He'll still need to out-do Eddie in a bunch of different areas to get minutes because despite Eddie's flaws he brings a lot to the table for this team. I'm doubtful Pruitt can out-do Eddie next season.

[Chris]

It looks like Lindsey Hunter is going to retire .... there's not a lot of guys out there that single handedly can pressure the ball well enough for it to be a concern.

Plus it's a very simple problem to work around. Just slap KG in at center court, pass it ahead to him and he can pass ahead to a wing. Then setup the offense. No need for Eddie dribbling against pressure when there's an easier way to advance the ball.

It also didn't cost the team anything significant against Detroit when Eddie was on the floor. Doc lost confidence in him (which absolutely makes it a problem) more than Eddie's flaws hurt the team.

To be honest, I think their dislike for House at the PG spot has less to do with dealing with pressure (because that is relatively rare), but more to do with how he actually runs the offense.  House simply does not know how to run an offense.  Although he does not turn the ball over much, he also does not make anything happen.  And I am not just talking about breaking your man off the dribble, or making a flashy, no-look pass. 

I am talking about making passes that have a purpose.  Making moves with the ball to set up a passing lane to get the ball in the post.  Moving the ball to the right man at the right time. 

When House is running the offense, it generally comes to a standstill, because all he does is hand the ball off, or pass it to someone out of position. 

Pruitt on the other hand showed (in very short minutes I know, so its not enough to really go on) the ability to get the team into the offense, and the ability to direct the offense.  He is not Jason Kidd, or even Rondo, but he is a decent enough passer.  But more importantly, he understands how to direct an offense, and how to use his skills to make a play progress.

This is why I think Pruitt will be playing some minutes at the Point this year.  House will play more off the ball, and they will allow Pruitt to prove that the flashes he showed last year were more than just flashes.

I agree with that criticism of Eddie House's game.

I have to say I haven't seen anything like that from Pruitt when it comes to passing and running a team. If he can do that it will help his cause. He'll still need to out-do Eddie in a bunch of different areas to get minutes because despite Eddie's flaws he brings a lot to the table for this team. I'm doubtful Pruitt can out-do Eddie next season.

Oh, I don't think Pruitt will pass Eddie for too many minutes, I think he will allow them to move House to SG, where they prefer him to play anyways.  Especially with Tony Allen as the primary backup wing, they will need House to play some extra minutes off the ball as a shooter.  Even though it would give us a very small backcourt, in short minutes, it could be very effective.

[zerophase]

well, i'm not so sure about moving house to the sg. if we do that, that crowds up the sg spot because of giddens and allen as backups, then you add house? i can see short stretches where we go with 2 pgs but definately not extended minutes.

[Chris]

well, i'm not so sure about moving house to the sg. if we do that, that crowds up the sg spot because of giddens and allen as backups, then you add house? i can see short stretches where we go with 2 pgs but definately not extended minutes.

Well, I think Giddens, Walker and Pruitt will all be competing with each other for minutes.  If Walker or Giddens win out, House will stick mostly at the point, if Pruitt wins out, you will see House at the SG, with Tony at SF.

This will probably be a classic Doc Rivers fight for the 10th spot in the rotation.  It will be different from night to night who will play based on matchups, and how they do in practice.

[Jon]

Keep in mind that things aren't all that much different than last year.  Cassell didn't get here until the last 1/3 of the season anyway, and Pruitt still didn't play that much. 

I don't think we're disagreeing that much.  If we once again win 66 games and we once again win half of them by double digits, well then there should be about 33 minutes where Pruitt gets garbage time in the fourth quarter.  I just find it doubtful that a team that has a strong starting point guard and a decent backup is going to find enough time for a third point guard to get meaningful minutes on a regular basis.

And why should they cut him if they don't plan to use him more?  This isn't Little League; everyone doesn't have to play.  Moreover, this isn't some goodwill charity either.  This is a business of trying to win.  The Celtics need players who aren't going to play on a regular basis that can step in if someone gets hurt.  Pruitt was a second round pick; he should be happy to still be in the NBA at this point. 

  It's not little league, but they don't have unlimited roster spots. If Pruitt's not good enough to get any more than garbage minutes then he's not good enough to be the 3rd pg in the playoffs. Keep in mind tht the 3rd pg isn't a ceremonial position. House played a total of 18 minutes against Detroit even though he'd just taken the job from Cassell, so it's not like we can definitely get through with just House. Pruitt playing 33 minutes of garbage time during the season won't be at all ready to step in and play. We'd need another pg, and we'd need Pruitt's roster spot for him.

The only reasons three point guards got minutes for the Celtics were a) Rondo was very young and inconsistent at times and b) Doc couldn't make up his mind who the backup 1 was.  Normally, in the playoffs, coaches don't go more than 1 deep at a position, and often 1 backup backs up multiple positions (like Posey backing up Allen and Pierce).  No other team did that.  Juan Dixon didn't play at all for the Pistons in the Conference Finals.  Only Jordan Farmar saw minutes behind Derek Fisher for the Lakers.  Damon Jones only saw minutes in the Cavs series after Gibson went down.  I could go on.  No team, under ordinary circumstances, is going to play 3 point guards in the playoffs.  And most aren't going to play 3 on a regular basis in the regular season.  There just aren't enough minutes to go around. 

  Doc couldn't decide on a backup pg because he didn't get consistent play out of either of them. He started with Cassell and then switched to House when Cassell faltered, but he then switched back to Cassell. It's no coincidence that House played very few minutes against Detroit when everyone predicted that he'd struggle against then.

Right.  But my point is that it's not happening this year.  Cassell has consistently been a borderline All Star who had historically come up big in the big game.  That can't be said about Pruitt.  Doc didn't utilize him last year when he didn't have a third string PG for the first 65 games of the season.  And while he may have improved this offseason, Rondo is going to get even more minutes this year and House has further cemented himself as a part of the C's rotation. 

  How has he further cemented himself as a part of the rotation? Are his flaws going to disappear? If Doc was concerned about House in the playoffs last year why won't that be the case this year?

I'm no fan of House.  I'd prefer a purer point guard.  However, he played a role in the championship run, which is something that Pruitt can't say.  Thus, I'd say he's the incumbent backup that Pruitt has to beat out.  That's what I meant by cemented himself. 

And as I showed above and as others have agreed on, we certainly don't need a third point guard in the playoffs.  If there's any time we may need a third point guard, as others have pointed out, it's in the regular season.  In the playoffs, you play your best players as many minutes as possible.  It was totally a fluke situation that allowed for Rondo/House/Cassell to all get minutes.  No other playoff team had a three man rotation at the point. 

  Would you be confident going into the playoffs with Davis as your only backup center, with a 3rd center who's only capable of getting into garbage time? Because that's the equivalent of what you're doing. Davis played almost as many minutes as House during the season and he played almost as many minutes as House during the playoffs. PJ brown getting more minutes than him was the same kind of fluke as Cassell getting backup pg minutes.

  You've shown that teams don't need to have 3 pgs play in the playoffs and most teams don't play 3 pgs in the playoffs. But you haven't shown that House is capable of being the sole backup pg for a team in the playoffs. That's the key point.

I don't know if he can.  I don't particularly like Eddie House's game.  I think he's vastly overrated on this board.  But I also think for a guy nobody's really ever seen play a meaningful minute of pro basketball, Gabe Pruitt is also grossly overrated.  That's not to say he may not prove me wrong.  I just think that anyone who thinks he's going to be any good is just using the following non-sequitur:

Danny Ainge historically has picked good players late in the draft
Gabe Pruitt was picked late in the draft.
Gabe Pruitt must be a good player. 

And of course such a conclusion has no factual basis.

I was extremely panicked about backu-up point guard last year.  I was thrilled we got Cassell because I don't have a lot of faith in House.  Still, this year I'm less concerned.  There's no reason to believe that come playoff time, Rajon Rondo can't play 40 mpg at the point guard spot.  If that's the case, does it really matter all that much who's backing him up?  While I don't like House running the show, I'm sure we can get by with him for a few minutes early in the second quarter and a few more late in the third.  Ditto with Pruitt or even Tony Allen.  My only point has been that it'll only be one of them doing the backup duties. 

As for Rondo going down for the season in the playoffs, if that happens, we're not going to win #18 anyway, so it really won't matter how much experience Pruitt has. 

[Who]

  Would you be confident going into the playoffs with Davis as your only backup center, with a 3rd center who's only capable of getting into garbage time? Because that's the equivalent of what you're doing. Davis played almost as many minutes as House during the season and he played almost as many minutes as House during the playoffs. PJ brown getting more minutes than him was the same kind of fluke as Cassell getting backup pg minutes.

Looking at our bench I regard the backup guard slot held by Eddie House to be our most dependable part. I'm more concerned about the wings and more concerned again about the big men. The guard slot is place of relative comfort.

[Chris]

  Would you be confident going into the playoffs with Davis as your only backup center, with a 3rd center who's only capable of getting into garbage time? Because that's the equivalent of what you're doing. Davis played almost as many minutes as House during the season and he played almost as many minutes as House during the playoffs. PJ brown getting more minutes than him was the same kind of fluke as Cassell getting backup pg minutes.

Looking at our bench I regard the backup guard slot held by Eddie House to be our most dependable part. I'm more concerned about the wings and more concerned again about the big men. The guard slot is place of relative comfort.

I second this.  Although I think during the regular season, it would be nice to see a better ballhandler out there with the second unit, I don't think it matters as much in the playoffs.  In the playoffs, when they shorten the rotation, it means Rondo will be playing more minutes, and House will be playing almost always with more of the starters, who can handle the play making more, so House can just sit there and hit the open shot.

[BballTim]

  You've shown that teams don't need to have 3 pgs play in the playoffs and most teams don't play 3 pgs in the playoffs. But you haven't shown that House is capable of being the sole backup pg for a team in the playoffs. That's the key point.

I don't know if he can.  I don't particularly like Eddie House's game.  I think he's vastly overrated on this board.  But I also think for a guy nobody's really ever seen play a meaningful minute of pro basketball, Gabe Pruitt is also grossly overrated.  That's not to say he may not prove me wrong.  I just think that anyone who thinks he's going to be any good is just using the following non-sequitur:

Danny Ainge historically has picked good players late in the draft
Gabe Pruitt was picked late in the draft.
Gabe Pruitt must be a good player. 

And of course such a conclusion has no factual basis.

I was extremely panicked about backu-up point guard last year.  I was thrilled we got Cassell because I don't have a lot of faith in House.  Still, this year I'm less concerned.  There's no reason to believe that come playoff time, Rajon Rondo can't play 40 mpg at the point guard spot.  If that's the case, does it really matter all that much who's backing him up?  While I don't like House running the show, I'm sure we can get by with him for a few minutes early in the second quarter and a few more late in the third.  Ditto with Pruitt or even Tony Allen.  My only point has been that it'll only be one of them doing the backup duties. 

  I'd like to restate my point as I'm apparently sounding like a big Pruitt proponent. That's not the case. I'm not saying that he deserves minutes over House. I'm not saying that he's better (or worse) than House or that he will be by the end of the year. But I'm not sold on House as being a great backup pg. But if, as in the playoffs this summer, we need another backup pg (like Casssell) then it either needs to be Pruitt or somebody using his spot on the roster.

  If it's going to be Pruitt, give him enough minutes that he's at least prepared to play in the playoffs. If he can't do the job, does he really have a spot on the roster? House and TAllen are both here for 2 years, and we just drafted Giddens. Are we holding onto Gabe so he can be the backup pg in 2010-2011? I don't see it. It's not worth tying up a roster spot for thenext 2 years. We could use another big, a taller wing defender and a backup pg capable of giving us minutes in May and June more than we need that.

[BballTim]

  Would you be confident going into the playoffs with Davis as your only backup center, with a 3rd center who's only capable of getting into garbage time? Because that's the equivalent of what you're doing. Davis played almost as many minutes as House during the season and he played almost as many minutes as House during the playoffs. PJ brown getting more minutes than him was the same kind of fluke as Cassell getting backup pg minutes.

Looking at our bench I regard the backup guard slot held by Eddie House to be our most dependable part. I'm more concerned about the wings and more concerned again about the big men. The guard slot is place of relative comfort.

  Talk about [dang]ing with faint praise...

[Eeyore III]

I respectfully disagree with Who and Chris on the relative strength of the bench positions.  The only one I'm reasonably content with right now is backup PF, with Neon Leon and Baby (and even Scals).  I'd rank backup PG second.  I guess backup SG would be third, but a distant third, with TA and House.  But backup C (O'Blount and Baby) and backup SF (Scals?  a rookie?)  GAAAAAA! 

Backup SF is particularly frustrating, since they aren't hard to find (decent backup SFs).

[Chris]

I respectfully disagree with Who and Chris on the relative strength of the bench positions.  The only one I'm reasonably content with right now is backup PF, with Neon Leon and Baby (and even Scals).  I'd rank backup PG second.  I guess backup SG would be third, but a distant third, with TA and House.  But backup C (O'Blount and Baby) and backup SF (Scals?  a rookie?)  GAAAAAA! 

Backup SF is particularly frustrating, since they aren't hard to find (decent backup SFs).

Well, I am counting Allen as the backup SF.  In the NBA, backup SG and SF are often covered by one player, and Tony Allen is able to cover 90% of the leagues SF's...especially in our defensive scheme.  I just don't trust that he is good enough as the primary backup for any position...but that is a different argument altogether.

Backup C is an issue, but I expect it to be addressed later in the year if O'Bryant doesn't make a miraculous change.

I agree about PG being the second most set position.  I just think that they will likely look to use House at his more natural SG position for some minutes, in order to see what they have in Pruitt, and make it easier to not have to rely on Scal or one of the rookies for minutes on the wing.